Shippers organizing to get better service

[Willbridge]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f...sedgntp&cvid=1a8c52f0711a4b45bfcbec961a5a8a66
The UP is brought up as a bad example.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while:

How do we balance the timely shipping (and by extension delivery) of goods via rail with making sure that passenger rail service (as it is currently) isn't severely affected?

On the one hand, people want to take Amtrak and trust that it will be reliable. On the other hand people want to be sure that goods they have shipped out or are expecting as deliveries are transported on time.

 

[GDRRiley]

This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while:

How do we balance the timely shipping (and by extension delivery) of goods via rail with making sure that passenger rail service (as it is currently) isn't severely affected?

On the one hand, people want to take Amtrak and trust that it will be reliable. On the other hand people want to be sure that goods they have shipped out or are expecting as deliveries are transported on time.

both of those require well planned timetables and sticking to them. With a computer controlled hump yard there is no reason a car should take 48 hours+ to go through it

Plan service first
Operation changes to get you closer
Finally concrete to deliver the needed investments

 

[PeeweeTM]

both of those require well planned timetables and sticking to them. With a computer controlled hump yard there is no reason a car should take 48 hours+ to go through it

Plan service first
Operation changes to get you closer
Finally concrete to deliver the needed investments

Yeah, something like Precision Scheduled Railroading could become a concept.
Or is it too soon to make a joke about that?

 

[joelkfla]

This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while:

How do we balance the timely shipping (and by extension delivery) of goods via rail with making sure that passenger rail service (as it is currently) isn't severely affected?

On the one hand, people want to take Amtrak and trust that it will be reliable. On the other hand people want to be sure that goods they have shipped out or are expecting as deliveries are transported on time.

Both should be possible if the railroads run trains that will fit in sidings with adequate staffing and planning.

 

[Qapla]

Quit holding the freight trains until they are as long as possible to "consolidate loads" (precision railroading) thus having freight trains so long that they no longer fit in sidings ... resulting in other trains, freight and passenger, having to be held/delayed while these super-long trains rumble by at slower speeds than shorter trains would run.

 

[GDRRiley]

Both should be possible if the railroads run trains that will fit in sidings with adequate staffing and planning.

it also helps to put enough power on trains, the current average is less than 1HP/T for most trains with only intermodal getting 1.5-2HP/T

 

[Bonser]

This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while:

How do we balance the timely shipping (and by extension delivery) of goods via rail with making sure that passenger rail service (as it is currently) isn't severely affected?

On the one hand, people want to take Amtrak and trust that it will be reliable. On the other hand people want to be sure that goods they have shipped out or are expecting as deliveries are transported on time.

How could this have been done so well 70-100 years ago with far more trains in service?

 

[daybeers]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f...sedgntp&cvid=1a8c52f0711a4b45bfcbec961a5a8a66
The UP is brought up as a bad example.

wow, it's almost like PSR isn't so precision!!

 

[bonzoesc]

How could this have been done so well 70-100 years ago with far more trains in service?

More trains in service. Missing the only train for the next 24h is a bigger deal than missing the third of five today, especially if all of them are shorter. PSR's big thing is consolidating trains to save on labor and capital expense, while moving the downsides of this to labor and customers.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

How could this have been done so well 70-100 years ago with far more trains in service?

Overall less freight to move, much more track capacity. Lower population density. More trains, very cheap labor cost. Wall Street has always been a problem. Executive officer that work for the company, and not robbing it for there own needs.

You need someone who can argue with the Wall Street Overlords about expectations and capital needs of a railroad. It does need to be in your face argument, it just need to be on a PowerPoint and repeated often. Wall Street just cares about next quarter, when railroads are a long term game. A railroad wooden crossties can last 30 years. It takes months to qualify a engineer.

 

[cirdan]

On the one hand, people want to take Amtrak and trust that it will be reliable. On the other hand people want to be sure that goods they have shipped out or are expecting as deliveries are transported on time.

I would be interested to know how much of total overall freight train delay is caused, even indirectly, by anything to do with Amtrak.

I expect other causes figure much more prominently.

 

[Qapla]

How could this have been done so well 70-100 years ago with far more trains in service?

There were more tracks back then. The RR's have removed and abandoned vast amounts of tracks making less room for short and long trains. They have diminished the amount of mainline and sidings all in the name of progress profit.

 

[jis]

There were more tracks back then. The RR's have removed and abandoned vast amounts of tracks making less room for short and long trains. They have diminished the amount of mainline and sidings all in the name of progress profit.

Reducing the property tax burden is one of the leading reasons for reducing the real estate footprint. many municipalities and counties thought they had found their piggy bank in railroads that passed through town, until they ceased to do so.

 

[joelkfla]

I would be interested to know how much of total overall freight train delay is caused, even indirectly, by anything to do with Amtrak.

I expect other causes figure much more prominently.

Amtrak's take on that is detailed in their complaint about the Sunset Limited’s “abysmal” performance, which was referenced in the RPA 12/9 Hotline.

ETA: BTW, I found it fascinating reading all the details of how OTP is tracked and delays attributed.

 

[Qapla]

Reducing the property tax burden is one of the leading reasons for reducing the real estate footprint.

While this may apply to the tracks that were abandoned and have since become "rails-to-trails" ... discontinuing the second track still leaves the RR owning the ROW and may not reduce the tax paid - however, it supposedly reduces/eliminates the maintenance costs even though it ends the ability to use that track as a siding to allow trains to pass.

 

[jis]

While this may apply to the tracks that were abandoned and have since become "rails-to-trails" ... discontinuing the second track still leaves the RR owning the ROW and may not reduce the tax paid - however, it supposedly reduces/eliminates the maintenance costs even though it ends the ability to use that track as a siding to allow trains to pass.

It does reduce the tax paid a
In most, if not all, jurisdictions, since that part of the land becomes undeveloped, from developed.

 

[GDRRiley]

I've not gotten to UP statements yet but shippers seem not happy with UP

 

[MARC Rider]

While this may apply to the tracks that were abandoned and have since become "rails-to-trails" ... discontinuing the second track still leaves the RR owning the ROW and may not reduce the tax paid - however, it supposedly reduces/eliminates the maintenance costs even though it ends the ability to use that track as a siding to allow trains to pass.

If I were to demolish my house, leaving a vacant lot, I believe my property tax bill would be greatly reduced. On the other hand, if I build an addition, making my house larger, I can expect an increase in my taxes. Either way, I still own the same amount of land.

 

[MARC Rider]

On one of the background articles I read on the web that I can't find any more on why rail freight is in that state it's in, I read a history of "precision scheduled railroading" (PSR) that gives the impression the what the class 1s are calling PSR isn't really what PSR was supposed to be. Especially the "scheduled" part.

What the railroads seem to be doing is running trains too long and heavy for the existing infrastructure and trying to cut costs on equipment and personnel in ways that go against having anything that can be called "precision scheduled railroading."

 

[Qapla]

All I know is that when the tracks started being removed in our area the freight RR's expresses that it was done to eliminate "maintenance costs" ... maybe they meant "taxes" but that is not what they said.

Either way, by reducing the number of tracks, they have made moving freight and passengers trains more difficult - not easier.

 

[Willbridge]

It does reduce the tax paid a
In most, if not all, jurisdictions, since that part of the land becomes undeveloped, from developed.

Remember, there are states with centrally assessed utilities, Colorado and Oregon being the ones I'm familiar with. Valuation is based on traffic on a line, rather than the number of tracks. The state professional figures the value of the entire operation in the state, divides it up by line classification and then distributes the assessment back to the county tax assessor who applies the mill rate and sends the tax bill.

It has the effect of making fairer assessments but shifting value out of urban areas to rural areas. As it was adopted when rural legislators sailed the ship of state, that might have been the payoff for cutting local assessors out of the first step.

I think I've remembered this right. In 1975-76 I was asked to propose a way of financing railway improvements. When I came up with diverting railway ad valorem taxes -- I copied it from the way that airplanes, boats, and motor vehicles avoid ad valorem taxes -- you should have seen the panic-stricken looks. I started thinking about other work.

Utah has centrally assessed utilities and explains it in their nice website:

The Centrally Assessed Team within the Property Tax Division values all mines, airlines, and utilities, and all railroad properties that operate as a unit. Values are set and apportioned to taxing entities based on situs of property. The local County Treasurer bills and collects the tax.
https://propertytax.utah.gov/centrally-assessed/

 

[GDRRiley]

UP seemed really proud of the fact they extended and CTC some sidings.
Using recent numbers from California projects the 45 siding extensions were 10-14 million mattering on what they did but in total that is under 600m of investments over 2 years. Between that and the 600 engine rebuild UP which is 1B over 3 years.
Wow UP you are spending 1B a year on a few projects projects vs 8b in stock buybacks.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Isn’t there some way for the shippers to get around the freights? For example, come into port from across the ocean, unload onto trucks, trucks take stuff to the nearest large body of water, unload onto boats that take the stuff to trucks at the other end, etc.?

The only stuff left would be the dangerous containers that can only go safely by rail. That I don’t have an answer for, but I am proposing the first as a serious solution. Just like a passenger might try to set up a plan to go from commuter rail to connecting commuter rail as a network if Amtrak shuts down.

 

[jis]

Isn’t there some way for the shippers to get around the freights? For example, come into port from across the ocean, unload onto trucks, trucks take stuff to the nearest large body of water, unload onto boats that take the stuff to trucks at the other end, etc.?

The only stuff left would be the dangerous containers that can only go safely by rail. That I don’t have an answer for, but I am proposing the first as a serious solution. Just like a passenger might try to set up a plan to go from commuter rail to connecting commuter rail as a network if Amtrak shuts down.

So something arriving across the Pacific that is going to say Chicago ( rather common thing for distribution to the Midwest), what large body of water would the truck take it to from the Pacific Port?