Silver Star 92 derailed by semi in Lakeland, FL (7-14-23)

[pennyk]

The train was partially taken off the tracks and only minor injuries have been reported.

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/...-lakeland-derailed-by-semi-truck-hauling-cars

 

[McIntyre2K7]

 

[joelkfla]

The driver should be sued by Amtrak for the cost of repairing any damaged equipment. Stopping a truck with the trailer blocking tracks while waiting for a light is just plain stupid. He should also lose his CDL with no ability to reapply.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Can we get a better design traffic interface?
Sorry but the roads always get a bypass on the blame department. Traffic lights timed better so traffic does not get stuck.

Takes a truck 18 seconds to make a left turn. Got to have a break in the traffic to make it.

I was in Texas once, caught a fast light change, hard brake but was still moving forward as the crossing traffic when by. Of course I was on tracks, shortly afterwards I watch the red lights behind me start to flash. No change of traffic lights, drove thur 2 of 4 lanes of crossing traffic to get off the track. Had several cars power brake as I enter their roadway. If anyone hit, it would be on me.

Nothing like getting trapped in a bad situation.

The timing of the roadways lights, and the timing of grade crossing will be contributed factors that could be changed to prevent problems. Of course a bridge over the tracks would be much better.

It’s not always a clear fault of the drivers. Road design can help or hinder drivers.

 

[GDRRiley]

Can we get a better design traffic interface?
Sorry but the roads always get a bypass on the blame department. Traffic lights timed better so traffic does not get stuck.

Traffic lights are suppose to be interlocked with grade crossings so that as gates start to come down the light should turn green allowing people who maybe on the tracks to to. Most crossing circuits are close to 1min out at track speed to allow a 30s gate down time and plenty of time to estimate speed and tell crossing signals a train is coming do the correct thing.

 

[Everydaymatters]

IIRC it was 1993, in Cary, Illinois, a school bus was on the tracks stopped at a red light. Sadly, now they call it Seven Angels Crossing.

 

[pennyk]

Here is another news story stating 7 people were taken to the hospital with non life threatening injuries.

https://www.wptv.com/news/state/amtrak-train-derails-7-14-23

 

[jiml]

The recent increase in these incidents is staggering. Are they just being better reported or have drivers really gotten stupider? It seems there were way less when there were more trains and less-protected crossings. Is something being omitted from driver training?

 

[joelkfla]

This link includes the full press conference from last night, but there's not much additional info:
https://www.wfla.com/news/polk-county/train-crashes-into-semi-truck-in-lakeland-police-say/

 

[Old MM]

Considering the intense pressure from inpatient drivers these days… to power through a stale yellow or even a stale green with a clogged intersection… I feel like drivers have gotten worse.
If there are train tracks there should be increased caution on the part of drivers certainly not less.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Considering the intense pressure from inpatient drivers these days… to power through a stale yellow or even a stale green with a clogged intersection… I feel like drivers have gotten worse.
If there are train tracks there should be increased caution on the part of drivers certainly not less.

Yes the amount of aggressive drivers in both cars and truck have definitely increased. Was delivering in NYC and the amount of drivers going thur solid red light, that I was standing at. Was truly impressive. It seem a red light is a suggestion for some drivers.

More training is a good idea, but with a high turnover rate it hard to get and keep people currently. Imagine if we had 6 months training like in Europe, here in the states. The cheap supply of easily obtainable drivers would disappear, with major impact in the supply chain.

 

[jis]

The recent increase in these incidents is staggering. Are they just being better reported or have drivers really gotten stupider? It seems there were way less when there were more trains and less-protected crossings. Is something being omitted from driver training?

In addition to cavalier Drivers, it may be the case that Road Designers and Engineers have gotten stupider. Some of the road layouts that are being built even now are spectacularly stupid inviting such accidents, and they seem to be completely oblivious to their designing incompetence.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I have an opinion, and it may prove to unpopular, but I believe we have someone that may have extensive road experience (looks in the direction of @Just-Thinking-51) to validate or refute my personal observations.

That being said, I think there are a few levels of technology that have added to the dilemma we're seeing. The first and main being, a lack of observation of the prevailing physical characteristics. It is my opinion that a lot of people are moving about via muscle memory and GPS technology. The drivers of today probably aren't as versed on observing the physical characteristics of their route. They are often following instructions or responding to commands ("in 1000 feet, turn left" or "in one mile, merge onto freeway such and such"), using routine "muscle memory" (I've made this trip several times so I know to turn at this sign) versus using personal observation ("oh, there's a gas station where I make this turn," or "the high voltage transmission lines take us to town center.)

As such, they are more accustomed to following the prompts instead of actively observing the many signs that are attempting to aid/alert them. They see the stop sign, but not the RR and grade crossing signs that preceded them.

This also impacts the old stand by of "Stop, Look and Listen." I routinely come to a stop at grade crossings. (only to get honked at and almost rear ended) because I am painfully aware of the fact grade crossing protection can, and does fail. At marked and protected crossing, I think people have been lulled into a false sense of security. When I approach, I brake, turn down my radio and roll down my windows as I approach the crossing, which leads me to my last point.

The reason I roll down my windows and turn down the radio, is to make sure I can hear the train if the protection has failed. The cars of yesteryear, may have been built like tanks, but the radios (by todays standards) were ludicrously low and "tinny." The cars of today are sealed, and drown out a lot of the outside noise. Combine that with a high powered audio system, and train horn that may be in between toots as you approach, and you may be in for trouble. Big trouble.

In closing, I think people are driving around on mental, cruise control.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Stop, Look and Listen is only for unprotected crossings, it is not in any other state rules

 

[tgstubbs1]

It's too bad the crossbars and lights are apparently too expensive for a lot of locations. Maybe they can come up with something less expensive that somehow alerts drivers to the danger.

 

[west point]

It's too bad the crossbars and lights are apparently too expensive for a lot of locations. Maybe they can come up with something less expensive that somehow alerts drivers to the danger.

Believe it is the state of OHIO that is putting reflective poles at RR crossings aimed so the flashing ditch lights shine in driver's eyes. Not a complete solution but still better than nothing.

 

[John Bobinyec]

It's too bad the crossbars and lights are apparently too expensive for a lot of locations. Maybe they can come up with something less expensive that somehow alerts drivers to the danger.

For automatic protection, it's not going to be cheaper. And besides whatever it is, it is going to have to be a standard item that all drivers recognize. That's precisely what the crossbucks are, along with the advance RR Xing warning sign and the RR paint on the pavement.

jb

 

[Palmland]

We’ve all seen those signs that start flashing if we exceed the speed limit- usually in neighborhoods. Some even have flashing blue lights now that get my attention.

How about a sign at a grade crossing that starts flashing and says ‘stop, train approaching’. Perhaps that will wake up those that seem to respond only to digital input.

 

[joelkfla]

In the incident being discussed, the crossing has full protection, and in videos taken during the response, the warning lights were flashing. However, the crossing is very close to a signalized intersection; I don't know whether the traffic signal is interlocked with the crossing warnings. The sheriff or someone also noted at the press conference that the crossing is on a hump, so there's the possibility that the trailer got hung up while traversing it.

 

[joelkfla]

Some local news outlets are reporting that the sheriff is now saying the trailer was indeed hung up on the crossing. So now I suppose the question is: How long before the train came was it hung up, and did the truckers have enough time that they should have called the emergency number to report it?

92(15) left MIA on time and is running within a few minutes of schedule.

I have another question for the group: I understand that Garmin makes GPS units specifically intended for truckers, which I assume include vertical clearance info. Do they also include info on crossings that are not level with the surrounding roadway?

 

[George Harris]

In addition to cavalier Drivers, it may be the case that Road Designers and Engineers have gotten stupider. Some of the road layouts that are being built even now are spectacularly stupid inviting such accidents, and they seem to be completely oblivious to their designing incompetence.

Unfortunately, I think you may be right on this one. I may be getting to be the crotchy old man on this, but it seems that too much in current engineering education, and practice has gotten to the point where it is to put input into program and accept results without thought. There were two primary things that should be emphasized in road design in both education and those parts of my working life when I have been engaged in it: 1. Drive the roads, including all ramps and turns in your imagination before putting out the plans. 2. Pour water (figuratively) all over the plan. These two things require lots of imagination and not much in the way of calculation. Also: Don't use "minimums" unless necessary. Go above those numbers wherever possible. If you can do the numbers, you can pass the tests and get the job without ever really learning to think. Somehow the "think" parts of "think, calculate, then think again, AND recycle as needed" seem to have gotten lost from the design process by many people.

However, I will say this, many times you are stuck with parallel road and railroad conditions where increased traffic has resulted in addition of lanes and lights that were never previously anticipated and you are stuck with making the best you can of a bad existing condition. In the case of high centering, that belongs to the driver not understanding the road conditions before hitting them.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Some local news outlets are reporting that the sheriff is now saying the trailer was indeed hung up on the crossing. So now I suppose the question is: How long before the train came was it hung up, and did the truckers have enough time that they should have called the emergency number to report it?

My question is now why this truck was on this route. It’s always possible that the hump was rebuilt higher recently. However humps are to be avoided by the low frame crowd. Such as this car carrier. Customer know of the correct route. I have seen dispatch that say call customer for correct route.

My experience calling the railroad emergency line directly did not fill me confidence in the event there was a real emergency. (Grade crossing arms broken.) They had a hard time figuring out where I was, and who to transfer me to. Those ID numbers on the sign don’t seem to match the ID that the railroad uses.

I have another question for the group: I understand that Garmin makes GPS units specifically intended for truckers, which I assume include vertical clearance info. Do they also include info on crossings that are not level with the surrounding roadway?

Several brands of GPS have been developed for truckers. All I have used will tell/show a railroad crossing approaching. None give data about the hump.

 

[McIntyre2K7]

So what happens to the consist? I would assume the engine gets towed to the AutoTrain station in Sanford. Would the remaining part of the train stay somewhere in a siding near Lakeland so that they can attach it to todays 92?

 

[Bob Dylan]

In addition to cavalier Drivers, it may be the case that Road Designers and Engineers have gotten stupider. Some of the road layouts that are being built even now are spectacularly stupid inviting such accidents, and they seem to be completely oblivious to their designing incompetence.

You're describing Austin perfectly!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

So what happens to the consist? I would assume the engine gets towed to the AutoTrain station in Sanford. Would the remaining part of the train stay somewhere in a siding near Lakeland so that they can attach it to todays 92?

May be more likely to attach them to 91 to take back to Hialeah for inspection/repairs.