Sleeper Car Pricing - Fair by past standard?

[BPRR]

Recent discussion on this site about various service issues concerning sleeping cars on Amtrak (End of video tv, lack of soft drinks etc) raised the issue of value of these ameneties considering they largely didn't exist in years past and/or are part of the ticket price. But how do things today stack up against the past price-wise? (and keeping in mind that dinner in the diner was usually not included in the ticket price in years past). Curious about what value one gets from Amtrak today as compared to the past, I did a little research which may be of interest. Using a 1963 New Haven Railroad timetable which includes Pullman fares, I indexed the prices quoted for inflation as compared to today (given that the latest inflation data available is for 2002...roughly 30 years ago. One dollar in 1963 is the equivalent of $5.72 in 2002 or $1.00 today equalled 17 cents in 1963. Using Washington DC to Boston as the sample route, a quick check of Amtrak fares for the route in April 2004 (assuming the sleeper on the Federal is back by then) shows one typcial fare "bucket" as coach $81, business class upgrade $30, standard bedroom upgrade $58 and delux room charge $144.

Converting the fares from 1963 to 2002 dollars for the same DC-Boston route shows the following fares (via New Haven and Pennsylvania Railroad with Pullman Co sleeper service). Coach $132.33; Coach roundtrip $251.49; Parlor car one way $167.66; The following fares are the accomadation charges by Pullman one way Lower Berth $44.40; Upper Berth $33.99; Section 1 person $55.73; Roomette one person $62.03; Bedroom 1 person $90.64; Bedroom 2 oersons $109.52; Drawing Room 1 person $127.72; Drawing Room $160.51; Compartment 1 person $94.76; Compartment 2 persons $118.68. While an exact comparison is immpossible given the changes in sleeping space over the years...and drawing rooms are a thing of the past....I think the old bedroom is rouglly equivalent to todays' delux bedroom minus the shower and the roomette about the size of todays standard bedroom although only able to sleep one person. The existence of open sleeper sections into the 1960's on the Northeast Corridor was due to a quirck in Federal government regulations requiring travel for government employees to use the cheapest sleeping car space possible.

 

[AlanB]

BPRR,

First let me welcome you to the forums.

Next, thanks for all that effort and work to give us a comparison of then and now. Those number are indeed interesting and I think tend to prove that Amtrak isn't exactly priced out of this world when it comes to their sleeper fares. Especially when one considers the included meals we get today from Amtrak.

One small critique if you don't mind, hit the enter key a couple of times. Paragraphs make a longer post, much easier to read. :blink:

But again I do thank you for such a great analysis and welcome.

 

[tp49]

As the one who kept asking the question about this thank you for the informative analysis it throughly answers the questions I had relating to this, and let me too welcome you to the group

 

[BPRR]

Thanks for the welcome; actually I was on this site before but with a different id...thought I would make sure my employers' name (a major railroad) best be not used

By the way, I'm not sure there is a clear cut conclusion to whether or not todays' pricing is fair by historical standards because I used Amtrak fares at the low end of the fare "bucket pricing scheme". For example at peak times..i.e. when the other Delux Bedroom on the Federals' Viewliner is already sold, the accomadation charge is closer to $250 for the DC to Boston run. This greatly exceeds the $160.51 charged in todays dollars for a drawing room...the best room available in a sleeper back then.

On the othe hand, a shower in-room was very rare years ago, even a public shower down the hall was very unusual. The issue of free meals also is a factor, although dining car prices were kept artificially low for years on the New Haven Railroad....and this run started too late for dinner anyway but breakfast would have been great.

It seems that if you get a good price for the sleeper on Amtrak..i.e. the lower fare bucket....you are doing better than years past and if you pay peak prices you may be worse....although a shower can be priceless on certain trips.

By the way, I mentioned some months ago how I had met David Gunn and we talked at length from NY to Springfield about many things but particularly the Twilight Shoreliner. He thought the train was named wrong and he liked the old "Owl" name...although this was really only used on the NY to Boston train on the old New Haven (sleepers on the old Owl open for occupancy at 9pm with departure at 3am for reasonable arrival in Boston (or the reverse). Train was kept at low speeds so one could sleep better.

Anyway, we agreed the Federal was the correct name for the Boston to DC overnight train historically. David Gunn said the sleeper to Newport News would have to go due to low patronage but made no mention of having a problem with the Boston-DC section. I recently rode the train form Philly to DC and it was packed on that particular day.

I had mentioned to David Gunn that the trains overnight schedule kept changing with earlier and earlier arrival times at both ends to the point the train was showing up in Boston and DC between 5 and 6 am when nothing is open in either city. He quite agreed with me on this and had experienced the same problem...magically the schedule changed (along with the train name) 2 months later and the train had a later arrival and a new name as well as early occupancy of the sleeper....something I had mentioned was needed. Given this positive experience with David Gunn about this train, I would hope the current lack of a sleeper is truly temporary and it will indeed be restored by April 1.

 

[railman]

While this price comparison is interesting there are two things about the adjusted 1963 prices in the previous post that seem to be missing.

First, in the private railroad days there were coach fares and there were Pullman fares. In order to occupy a parlor car or sleeper accommodation, a traveler was required to pay the the Pullman fare. The Pullman fares were higher than coach fares and represented the base railroad rail fare plus a surcharge for the private railroad's handling of the Pullman Company's equipment in their trains.

While the antitrust suit of 1947/8 rendered most of the Pullman rolling stock that of the operating railroads, it was usually leased back to the Pullman Comapny for staffing and operation. Thus the higher-than-coach Pullman fares remained. For example, my 1952 PRR timetable lists the one-way BOS-WAS coach fare as $16.23 but the one-way Pullman fare was $21.30. Keep in mind that the accommodation charges were added on top of the Pullman fares!

Secondly, many sleeping car accommodations had a minimum occupancy requirement. For the individual wanting exclusive occupancy of many of the sleeper accommodations, that meant paying 1.25, 1.5 or even 1.75 of the Pullman fares AND accommodation charges. Again referring to my 1952 PRR timetable as an example, a single bedroom occupied by one person between BOS and WAS required payment of a minimum of 1 Pullman rail fare and 1 Pullman accommodation charge. That would be $21.30 (Pullman fare) plus $11.05 (accommodation charge) for a total cost of $32.35 one-way.

So, please apply those numbers to your inflation calculator (1952 to 2002) again and see what you come up with. Based on the results of your previous analysis, it appears in your post that the current total costs for Amtrak sleeper car space between BOS and WAS is LOWER than the adjusted 1963 price would be if advanced to the year 2002.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I remember the points made on the above post about accommodation charges plus pullman charges, minimum occupancy, etc.

But I am thinking part of the question is not just not comparing the old railroad prices with today's Amtrak but rather, compare apples with apples.Compare Amtrak with Amtrak. What actually happened within Amtrak, when the "free" dining car meals, and some other standardized perks, were included? That is an aspect of the original theme, or at least I think it is.

It is very clearly distinct in my memory that I figured out some prices back when it actually happened and was shocked by the difference. Something about "what the buyer will pay" or some slogan like that. Help me out somebody, there is an advertisnig in-house slogan about charging whatever the customer is willing to pay. Thus I have always ordered the steak or otherwise the most expensive thing on the menu since I was "paying for it anyway".

Now to proving the above: I have not had a chance to check my old Amtrak timetables yet(hope to do so tonight) and but I am thinking they probably did not include fares in the timetables. They have do not done so for years and just now began again, thank God. So I may have some article from TRAINS or something like that on the subject. I live in a small cluttered apartment with many, many railroad goodies but they can be hard to find at a times.

Does anybody know what YEAR Amtrak began including meals in the price of tickets? That could help me locate some blurb on the subject in some magazine, esp. if the timetables for that time period do not show fares.

Another note: Amtrak fares back then may have not had the fluctuation they do now,as pointed out above post, all the more confusing when trying to compare them. Again, the real issue (as I understand it) is what were the fares at the exact timing that change was made, not years before or years since.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I looked at old timetables and magazines last night and did not yet come up with a fare comparison.

It seems the "First Class Service" began around mid-1986. I saw an ad which featured:1. free meals,2. wine and cheese packet, 3., bedtime sweet(this was usually a chocolate, put on your pillow when the bed was made down, I remember)4.souvernir packet(timetable, info on the train and route), 5.morning newspaper slid under your door, 6. coffee or tea between 6.30 and 9.30.

The free coffee and tea was handled different ways. It often meant one cup of it ready when you woke up. Sometimes different attendants set up a system like it is now, I remember once on the Crescent when a big pot was put in the pullman-lounge. All you want. This would have been from a time period when the equipment was what later became known as "heritage" but at the time was not known by any such model name. And if the word "heritage" was in use by 1986, then it would have been some such sort of complimentary coffee and tea BEFORE the First Class Service as listed above.

As I recall, bit by bit some of that disappeared. I thnk at first it was sporadic, and eventually by policy some of it was cancelled.Do note that if often meant just ONE cup cup of coffee or tea.

I did not yet find any commentary on whether the fares went up but I am still looking .

As I expected, the timetables of that period did not show fares.

Oh, one other note. At first the newspapers were put on at local towns, for example, going n.b. on #20 a WAS paper would be put on in, like, Charlottesville.Later on it became USA Today, instead of specific local newspapers.

 

[AlanB]

Oh, one other note. At first the newspapers were put on at local towns, for example, going n.b. on #20 a WAS paper would be put on in, like, Charlottesville.Later on it became USA Today, instead of specific local newspapers.

Bill,

That's not entirely true. Yes many times my paper was indeed the USA Today. But there were several occasions within the last three years, where I received a local paper under the door and not the USA Today.

Oddly enough it seemed to happen more when I rode trains that ran more in the midwest, Chicago area. Silver Service always seemed to be the USA Today.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Alan, I am glad to hear that....guess I was just speaking from my own experience (and memory). Personally while I do enjoy USA today, like in a hotel lobby, I would rather get the local paper if, for example, I am going to be visiting that city in a few hours. (as per above example).

Reading a newspaper, and drinking complimentary coffee in one's sleeping car room, after breakfast, ah that is all part of the Good Life!.

 

[Guest_BPRR]

In reply to Railmans' post...the 1952 prices listed via PRR/Pullman of $21.30 for Pullman charge and $11.05 for accommadation charge equal $141.94 and $73.63 respectively in 2002 dollars. By the way, I'm not doing some brilliant math calculations....there is a website at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ that has a great inflation calculator where you just plug in the amounts and the year and hit enter...in case anyone else wants to plug in old numbers from their timetable collection or whatever.

I was aware of course, that the number of people occupying a section or room changed the price in pre-Amtrak days which is why I noted the prices as such (typos not withstanding) but we would have to factor that in to get a fair comparison.

Trouble is, the drastic change in Viewliner/Superliner rooms vs the old 10/6 and other sleepers makes any comparison difficult. To me, the Amtrak Delux bedroom is roughly equivalent to an old standard bedroom with the exception of the in-room shower, an amenity that one could argue makes the room as high a value as the old larger Drawing Rooms (larger room but no shower).

The real odd thing to compare is the so-called standard bedroom which in size seems no better than the old roomette and for one person seems the equivalent. In a way, the standard bedroom stacks a second bunk in a roomette size space, almost akin to a double slumbercoach room. This introduces the circular argument of why a solo traveler has to pay for 2 beds, or conversly is a second person riding in a sleeper room on Amtrak traveling for "free" (as far as the accommadation charge goes). Maybe the system from years ago based on number of people was fairer in a way. In any case having two people in a room on Amtrak is a better value since you have to pay the same price for the room anyway.

Speaking of past pricing, I thought the fares in years past were set or heavily regulated by the ICC anyway and the railroads would not have had the freedom to set prices any way they wanted (Probably thankfully by the 1960's when roads like SP and PC would have raised prices though the roof to drive people away). As I recall, even into the Amtrak era, the ICC mandated equipment requirements as well such as full diners on runs of a certain length etc.

I do recall at least one Amtrak system timetable publishing fares years ago, I'll try to locate it in may disorganized collection to see if there is any pre-free dinner in the diner pricing info.

 

[Guest_BPRR]

Railman...I took your advice and indeed in looking at my 63 NH timetable there is still a sperate fare listed for sleepers DC to Boston before adding on the Pullman Accommodation charges that I previously noted. This amount $33.11 or $189.46 in 2002 dollars seems so high (and higher than your PRR numbers) I don't know what to think other than it all suggest travel was alot more expensive in real dollars back then...no wonder some people still booked open sections...i

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

One point I forgot to make in my earlier post......in describing the First Class Service, it did mention that the goodies as already described did not apply to slumbercoach.

And that was ok, but because I do remember that slumbercoach was significantly less than sleeper.

As to finding out if sleeper prices for exactly the same type of space went up signifcantly at the time(or just after) "First Class serivce" began, I think it is going to take a magazine article to find that----inasmuch as the timetables did not print fares.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

BPRR and Railman,it is interesting to read your posts and the old names for sleeping car rooms.I understand your difficulties in trying to make comparisons, and I think my conclusions would follow along your lines.

One point you guys might appreciate......in an earlier post I mention a pullman-lounge on the Crescent where there was a huge pot of free coffee. That was an original 1949 car from the that train which did, at one time, have a master room with shower. You guys will recognize that right away, and how rare it was.

Though at the time I was taking that trip the train was already under Amtrak, and I know Amtrak did not sell master rooms, so I suppose the m.r. was used as conductor's quarters or something plebian like that.

 

[Viewliner]

I'm not sure but I think, at least on one occasion I may have gotten a Washington post on #98, but its usually USA Today. Usually at Jacksonville, I'd also get a copy of the local papers from the machines while photographing the consist.

 

[Chatter163]

Yes, they give the USA Today on weekdays and because it does not publish on weekends, they then use local papers.

 

[EmpireBuilderFan]

Oh, one other note. At first the newspapers were put on at local towns, for example, going n.b. on #20 a WAS paper would be put on in, like, Charlottesville.Later on it became USA Today, instead of specific local newspapers.

The Empire Builder still uses local papers. Heading eastbound from Seattle and Portland, the Kalispell, MT newspaper is used the first morning and I think the Fargo, ND paper is used the second morning. Heading westbound, I think the Grand Forks, ND paper is used the first morning and the Spokane paper is used the second morning. USA Today is probably not given out because it's always a day behind in the Midwest and the West.

 

[battalion51]

I personally would love local papers rather than USA Today. I mean on the Meteor you'd get the Washington Post or the Florence (whatever), Star you'd get the Jacksonville (Sun Times?) or the Raleigh (whatever). I'd rather have that.

 

[tp49]

I too would prefer a local paper to USA Today, however from my experience reading numerous local papers from all over the country over the years I find that many lack a decent "Metro or City" section for local news and mainly rely on wire services but I digress. I figure too that USA Today is more prevelent on the East Coast trains because their main office is in Arlington, VA very close to the Orange Line.

 

[BPRR]

Bill, funny you should mention the Master Room on the Crescent. According to timtetables, the Master Room with shower lasted all the way up to the Amtrak takeover. I had very much wanted to try it out but was only in high school at the time and it was quite over the budget. At the time having a shower onboard seemed amazing....we take it for granted now.

As far as newspapers goes, USA Today is everywhere because I think they distribute it free to hotels (and probably Amtrak) so they can claim the largest newspaper circulation in the country which counts for setting advertising rates. Needless to say, one would probably be better off with something else....a train by its very nature should be able to stock decent newspapers from along its route.

 

[denmarks]

<snip>The real odd thing to compare is the so-called standard bedroom which in size seems no better than the old roomette and for one person seems the equivalent. In a way, the standard bedroom stacks a second bunk in a roomette size space, almost akin to a double slumbercoach room. This introduces the circular argument of why a solo traveler has to pay for 2 beds, or conversly is a second person riding in a sleeper room on Amtrak traveling for "free" (as far as the accommadation charge goes). Maybe the system from years ago based on number of people was fairer in a way. In any case having two people in a room on Amtrak is a better value since you have to pay the same price for the room anyway.

<snip>

The second person not only uses the sleeper free which only takes up space, he also gets the meals.

 

[juan516]

As a foreigner I can only quote accomodation charges of my first Amtrak trips in fall 1978, so the amounts I paid on top of my USA Rail Pass (the Rail Pass in 1978, in todays prices was about double of what you pay now for off peak AND - which was really bad - only allowed sleeping car bookings 24 hours prior to train departures, almost as bad as the three weeks booking deadline still enforced during summer peak season for VIA RAIL's Canadian).

Single Slumbercoach Broadway Ltd. NYP to CHI 9.00. Yes, nine dollars.

Transcontinental Sleeper NYP - Crescent (still in the hands of Southern in 1978) - via NOL (overnight use of through sleeper in the station) - Sunset - LAX - Roomette (total 4 nights) 120.65, of which more than half went to Southern Railways for the WASNOL Crescent segment of the journey.

Those were the good days...

Cheers.

 

[BPRR]

Well lets see...in todays' (2002 anyway) dollars your slumbercoach fare New York to Chicago was $25.69....quite a bargain! Not bad for the cross country roomette trip at $344.39 in 2002 dollars either but having been able to ride on the last non-Amtrak carrier was no doubt a pleasure.

Slumbercoaches are missed and filled a unique niche in low cost travel...but they weren't for everyone. I remember a trip on one with a wealthy friend of mine who had never rode on a train before and upon opening the door to his room inquired if this was in fact the closet...slumbercoaches weren't for the claustrophobic anyway. Bruce