Sleeper seats on coach?

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There are many complaints these days about the lack of space in airplane seats, and the stress and exhaustion that results from remaining in them for long periods.

As a frequent business traveler, I too spent many endless, sleepless nights aboard planes on intercontinental flights. Thinking of a way to better this situation, I had an idea of a design for commercial aircraft passenger cabins that can provide every passenger with a fully reclining seat and far more freedom to move about.

Although this solution was thought primarily for commercial aircraft passenger cabins, it can be implemented in train coach-class.

I'd like to know what my fellow travelers think of this concept, so if you would like to take a close look at it, I invite you to visit this website:

The ABH Website

Cheers! :)
 
Sleepless Traveler, while your idea is innovative, it's been done. On the Boeing 777, First Class passengers have seats that will recline 165 degrees (essentially horizontal). While the idea could be implemented into trains and planes, it would be very expensive as the seats take up a good six to seven feet a piece. Also, on the 777 you have twin aisles which enable them to have 1-2-1 seating in First Class, making it so you don't have to jump over the guy next to you. So while your idea's good in theory, I doubt we will ever see it across the board.
 
Actually his concept was all ready developed almost 50 years ago for trains. It was called the sleeping berth. In the day there would be coach seats but at night the seats would fold out into beds and beds would come down from the wall making for a comfortable sleeping accomadation, VIA Rail Canada plus European rail service do use this concept however Amtrak has not. B)
 
Amfleet, I am not sure what you are talkiing about.. Was this sometihing widespread or perhaps of limited scope and kind of experimental? I do not remember the various day time seating in a sleeper being much different from what we have today.

Are you thinking of upper and lower berths(called "sections") These were the semi-private areas,sealed off by a green curtain instead of a door. There were two seats facing each other, sofa-like seats. But they are the oldest "living" kind of sleeping car accommodation---more like 150 years old intead of 50. Are you thinking of slumbercoaches? Maybe their seats wre like coach seats but I don't really remember that.

Point is, I do not remember any kind of daytime sleeper seat which resembled a coach seat....

You mention VIA Canada---their long distance sleepers are much like those operated in the US at that time (and they DO have "sections" as well as private rooms)...but their eastern Canadian equipment may be much different---I am not so familair with that....nor am I familiar with European trains.....so there may be something you are on to, but let us know a little more about it.

The Upper and lower berths(sections|) are the sleeping car facility most often seen in old, old movies.

Perhaps you are talking about some kind of coach in which the seats turned all the way back like that...but I do not remember any such.
 
Funny thing about sections.......I never rode in one as a revenue passenger. But one time, near Christams, I was on a very crowded train, one so crowded that an old pullman was being used in coach service. People were expected to sleep sitting up in the pullman seats, but some of us figured out who to convert them into beds.....

I must say that the bed in a section sleeper was one of the most comfortable on the train....a well guarded secret....sections were the cheapest accommodation there was for sleepers, because after all you had zero lavatories or toilet, not even a real door., just a very thick green curtain...but that full width bed was the best in the house!!
 
Thanks for your replies Chief, Amfleet, and Bill!

I appreciate your comments, but I'm wondering if you entered the ABH website to review the concept's information? :blink:

The ABH Website

Cheers! B)
 
I used to work for an aircraft furnishing company in Kansas, and have some knowledge of these kinds of things. The idea depicted on the ABH site closely resembles several I've seen for commercial aircraft designed for long distance service. None of these has ever seen revenue service for two reasons. One is that the airlines have, for years, been trying to decrease the costs associated with each passenger. These costs include service attendance, which is presumed to be at some fixed, high level with these kinds of innovations. This is why the seats seem to get smaller and closer together with time, and the service seems to get more sparse and uniform. This trend will continue. The other is that it has been impossible to get these kinds of designs approved by the government on safety grounds: difficulties with fires and evacuations. One of the advantages of rail service is the lack of these kinds of constraints.
 
Amtrak Watcher:

Thanks for your very kind reply and interest.

It’s well known that airlines spend large amounts of money entertaining their passengers (estimates for 2001 are at about US$2.2 billion, I believe). This entertainment is provided to ease passenger discomfort during long flights, which means that if passengers are comfortable airlines will not need to spend these amounts to entertain them. Moreover, the ABH concept’s materials and mechanisms are designed to be simple and of low cost, both in their production and maintenance.

Regarding evacuations, only passengers in top-tiers will need to make use of the ladders to abandon their modules, the rest can simply walk out of their places. Passenger manuals will include precise directions for emergency procedures, leaving the use of ladders only for passengers who need them to abandon their modules. Additionally, clear signs will be in place all along the cabin to indicate the way to the nearest exit.

In present cabin configurations, it is not possible to leap over seats in order to advance towards the front or rear of the plane, so this leaves just the two aisles for evacuation. In this respect, I’m positive that the ABH system’s unique three-aisle design—50% more aisle space—is an enormous advantage. Plus, the design of ABH modules permits passengers to move across the cabin—in three levels—and reach other aisles in case one of them has an obstruction.

By the way, I was very interested in your comment about similar systems, would it be possible for you to provide any further information regarding that?
 
Sleepless Traveler,

I'm a little concerned about not having windows on the upper teir. Even though your 30,000-40,000 feet in the air I tend to get closter phobic. How would you solve this? B)
 
SleeplessTraveler said:
Amtrak Watcher:
Thanks for your very kind reply and interest.

It’s well known that airlines spend large amounts of money entertaining their passengers (estimates for 2001 are at about US$2.2 billion, I believe). This entertainment is provided to ease passenger discomfort during long flights, which means that if passengers are comfortable airlines will not need to spend these amounts to entertain them. Moreover, the ABH concept’s materials and mechanisms are designed to be simple and of low cost, both in their production and maintenance.

ld it be possible for you to provide any further information regarding that?
Sleepless traveler, you are partially wrong. did you ever notice how airline movies are chock full of commercials and network programming? They pay to get their stuff on the video. so what the airline pays for public performance rights on movies, they make up with commercials. Amtrak however, puts no commercials on their tapes shown in sleepers and lounges, so they pay $100/tape for public performance rights.
 
battalion51:

I don't have any of the material on proposed sleeping accommodations I was exposed during my career in the aircraft industy. But should you ever find yourself in southern Germany, you should go the the Zeppelin Museum in Friedrichshofen. Here you will find models of the luxury accomodations on rigid airships of the 1930s and many models and drawings of how this kind of luxury could have been moved to conventional aircraft. It is a large and fascinating display. Some of the ideas are amazing by even the most modern standards

Also, I can recall a trip I made from Hannover to Paris (a long time ago when I was much younger) on a night train in which the seats cleverly converted to beds (three-high) on each side of the isle. I don't remember the mechaism, but distinctly remember falling out of the top-most bed one night.
 
Even though Amtrak does not put commercials in it's movies I think it actually would be a good idea. During breaks people can get up, stretch, use the restroom, and get a snack without missing anything. B)
 
Why do movies need to be stopped (bad) and/or interjected with commercials (worse) just because they're being shown on a train?

If you want a snack or something to drink during the movie, bring it with you. Take your potty break before the movie starts. If you need to stretch, stand up and do it while you're still watching the movie. That would be no more distracting than people walking through the car going from one car to another.

I don't watch that many movies on trains but I don't think they normally play terribly long epics of three or four hours or more. If you can sit through a 2-hour movie in a theater, why is it different on a train? Actually, it's better on a train. If the movie is bad, you can watch a GOOD movie right outside the window. (Even if it is dark!) :)

seajay
 
I don't ever watch movies on the train.....I can see a movie anytime.....I cannot be on a train anytime......as Seajay says, there is always an excellent movie going on outside the window, even it is is nighttime---the lights of distant farms,etc........that is all the movie I need. However, I am glad that movies do exist on the train, for the benefit of those who do not feel the same way as I feel.
 
I think my greatest concern for the design directly relates to aircraft insofar as would this design meet or exceed FAA guidelines relating to crashworthiness and survivability. What tyoe of impact could this system take and still remain structurally sound and not pancaking onto people below? Just my two cents, take it for what it is.
 
Amfleet:

The modules’ design itself has plenty of open elements, which allow for good air circulation and a comfortable, open environment. However, for those who can’t stand to be between two persons, the best option are the aisle seats, which comprise 70% of all the seats in an ABH economy-class cabin, compared to just 40% in an average economy-class cabin for a 747. Plus, in order to let all passengers in on what’s going on outside, there will be a virtual “window” in every passenger’s TV monitor; you can see this at the end of the concept section of the ABH wbsite.

Amtrak Watcher:

Thanks for the tip about the Zeppelin Museum, I’ll certainly remember that if I’m ever in southern Germany. In this respect, I’d like to recommend a website where I found some very interesting information about the first DC-3, which was actually called the Douglas Sleeper Transport, or DST: http://www.ingraham.ca/bob/proplinerspage.html

Yes, the trains you speak of are known as “couchette”; they still operate in Europe, I believe. However, aside from having three tiers their design is very different to that of the ABH system. For example, in these trains the aisle between the beds runs across the cabin, not along it. Also, seats can’t be converted into beds individually.

Cheers! B)
 
tp49:

Thanks for your reply.

Regarding your concern:

The ABH modules’ monocoque construction design—with multiple union/fastening points—makes for lightweight, yet highly reinforced, flexible, and resistant structures. I feel I should add that ABH modules contribute to protect passengers from shocks, flying objects, and fire or spraying of fuels, in very much the same way that monocoque-built cockpits of Formula 1 racers protect the pilots, saving their lives in accidents of impressive violence.

If you have any other doubts or comments please let me know and I'll be glad to answer them.

:)
 
Sleepless,

I do agree that there is a certain amount of charm to the type of seating that you have suggested. However, I see a few problems with this type of seating for Amtrak.

First and sadly most obvious, is the fact that Amtrak simply cannot afford to retrofit their current fleet of trains with these seats. Even if Amtrak actually had money with which to buy new trains, I doubt that they could find a manufacturer willing to substitute the normal type of seating with ABH seating without additional costs.

Secondly, something that Amfleet has already touched upon would be the lack of a window for the second tier. While I note that you have mentioned and I saw on the web page that there is a virtual reality window, I personally and I suspect that most people who do travel Amtrak want to see the real thing. That’s one of the reasons that many people take Amtrak. On a plane you can’t see much out of that tiny window at 30,000 feet even if you have the window seat. So at 30,000 feet virtual reality would actually be beneficial and welcome. On a train, I want to really see what’s going by the window. I don’t want to feel like it’s a movie. Yes I realize that a camera mounted on the engine might actually show me more than what I see out the window, but somehow it’s just not the same. If both were combined however, that could be a real treat. Being able to see what's coming and then look out a real window to watch it go by would be awesome.

Third and perhaps the biggest problem that I see with the ABH system, is the ladder needed to climb into the seat. People tend to move about a train far more than they do a plane. If it’s a short flight you may not see very many people get up. Even on a long distance flight, movement in the cabin is still far less than what you would experience on an Amtrak train. Remember that a plane can get you from NY to Miami in a little over 2 hours, while Amtrak takes about 26-27 hours. On a plane the average person might need to go to the bathroom once during that flight. On Amtrak at a minimum I’d expect at least 6 or 7 trips to the bathroom, and maybe more. Then add in the need for 4 meals in either the diner or the café car, a couple of walk a bout’s just to stretch your legs. You’ve now got at least a dozen times that a person going from NY to Miami would need to climb up and down that ladder, all while the train is bouncing and pitching around. A train from Chicago to California would easily double the above numbers, if not triple them.

That said Amtrak already has problems with people falling off the ladders in the sleeper cars, and the ladders only get used at night for bed. Trains tend to bounce around a lot more than planes do. Therefore since ABH would require many more passengers to climb up and down far more often than they would in an airplane, I suspect that you would end up with a very high injury rate. That sounds like a recipe for disaster waiting to happen. In fact I can see professional accident victims(PA's) lining up to ride the train in an upper seat, just for the opportunity to fall on a good bounce and sue Amtrak. Yes PA's do exist sadly, in fact Disney World actually has a department within it's police force whose sole job is to follow know PA's around the park just waiting for them to try to fake an accident.

Yes I like the idea of the seats ability to fully recline, and the other safety factors which both you and the web site mention are very nice. It does hold great charm for planes, but I’m not sure how you fix the above problems for Amtrak use. If Amtrak could afford to lose the coach seating by going with single level ABH only, then I would endorse ABH in a heartbeat. For that matter if Amtrak could live with one row of ABH seats on each side of the car and a row in the center of the car, so that you had two isles running down the length of the car, that would also work. This would also solve the window problem, but I’m just not sure the bi-level concept would work well for Amtrak. Plus I don’t know if they can afford the loss of seating in a single level ABH configuration.

Even if you can overcome those difficulties, still remaining is the cost factor. Amtrak currently can’t even afford to repair its damaged cars, let alone refurbish it’s current fleet. Plus forget about buying any new cars, even though they desperately need new cars.
 
AlanB:

Thanks for your interesting reply; I’m pleased to see you liked the ABH concept in general.

Regarding your very good pints:

1. Cost

If Amtrak were to implement this design in their coach-class, I’m certain that the number of people that travel by train would increase considerably, which would mean more business going their way and a revival of the railway as a means of long distance transportation. Also, I feel I should add that the ABH concept’s materials and mechanisms are designed to be simple and of low cost, both in their production and maintenance.

2. Windows

Yes, I have considered this factor, and I agree with you that it’s far more important to have a window on a train than it is on an airplane. Of course, it’s not possible to simply add new windows to an airplane; it would be necessary to design a whole new aircraft for that. However, I believe that this problem can be overcome in trains by adding extra windows where they would be needed.

3. Ladders

The best way to keep injuries to the minimum will be to make the first-level seats preferential for older or disabled passengers, leaving the upper-level seats mainly for the youngest and most physically fit. Moreover, the ladders’ design avoids injury and offers plenty of ergonomic grip points.

To sum it all up, I might add that no solution is perfect but that innovative options are hard to come by and need to have a chance to prove whether they are practical.

Thanks again for your interesting feedback and points. I hope that I’ve been able to answer satisfactorily to all of them. :)
 
If the design is two tiers, the window factor could be implimented on Viewliners (future coaches), with however the loss of the overhead luggage rack. I agree that safety could be an issue, which is the reason modern sleepers have the netting so people don't fall out during the night in the event of a sudden screeching hault. Also these ladders take up space, in a Deluxe room, there is barely enough room to move around at night with that, so that would be a problem in Coaches, as you'd have plenty of people tripping over and knocking down the ladders.
 
Viewliner,

With ABH, the armrest moves up as the seat reclines to prevent people from rolling out of the seat, so that problem is covered. Also the ladder, as it were, is not standing free like they do in the bedrooms. It is built literally into the wall of the modular unit. So the only way a person could trip over the ladder would be if they literally walked into the wall.

That said however, even in light of what Sleepless mentioned above, I still have my concerns about people climbing to the upper level. Yes you can try to control who gets upper level seating vs. lower level seating, but despite anyone's best intentions there will always be exceptions, and quite probably multiple exceptions. If for no other reason than the ADA act requires that Amtrak can’t discriminate against anyone. This means that if a 20-year-old passenger demands a lower level seat, Amtrak must sell it to them. Yes Amtrak can designate a few seats for the handicapped, but they can't give the entire lower level that designation and reserve it only for the elderly and children.

On the other hand, I could see some of the more spry older adults wanting an upper level seat for the better view, if we solve the window problem. Also if all lower level seats are sold out, I can see older adults buying an upper level seat, after all vacation plans aren’t always flexible. Or they may be traveling for a holiday or other event that requires a fixed date of travel. Again Amtrak can’t refuse to sell them a ticket. Bottom line is it will be very hard to follow the guidelines that Sleepless is proposing.

Finally while I might seem ancient to some of our younger members, I’m only 41 years old. In my job as a computer consultant I carry around computers, monitors, and printers some of which weigh close to 100 pounds. I’m also an avid skier; in fact I wish I were at Killington Vermont right now as they’ve got a huge amount of trails open already. That said, even with ergonomic grip points, I’m not sure if I could hang onto the ladder with some of the unexpected bounces that a train can take. Remember also that I’m an experienced traveler and I know what to expect, most people traveling by Amtrak have no idea. I walk down the corridor with a much wider stance than most people do while on board, despite that I’ve still banged a shoulder or two from and unexpected jolt. I’ve seen someone bounced right out of the bench seats in the dining car.

My point being that I’m not sure that it is possible to protect anyone from being tossed off the ladder, myself included, unless every RR company gets out and fixes all of their tracks something that not likely to happen. I also don’t think that it’s practical to assume that Amtrak can fully control who gets an upper or lower seat. So again I would return to the concept of having three single level rows, assuming that it would fit the width of the car, as opposed to a bi-level arrangement.
 
Viewliner:

Thanks for your reply; that’s a very good point about the window factor. Regarding the overhead luggage rack, it might disappear, but there would be luggage compartments in every module to compensate this.

Alan:

Thank you for kindly pointing out those important factors of the ABH concept’s design to Viewliner.

Regarding your other points…

If the ADA act would keep Amtrak from categorizing accommodations, then passengers would be free to decide which level they prefer to travel in.

About the ladders, I’d like to emphasize that they are designed to be safe: they are not loose, but sturdy and solid; they have rounded corners to avoid injury; they have plenty of ergonomic handle grips; and they will feature anti-skid materials to prevent slips and falls. Also, the second tiers are not high at all.

I’d also like to mention that along with things like the bow, the arrow, the plate, the bowl, and other such tools, stairs and ladders have been essential to humans since the earliest times. So much so that all of these have been discovered by almost every civilization on its own since the most remote times, even before they came in contact with each other. Moreover, stairs and ladders are a fact of life for all of us: they’re in our homes, in our offices, in shopping malls and stores, in airplanes, in boats, in trains—they are everywhere and are used by us every day. There are escalators that carry every type of person, from little children and young persons to older and disabled persons. These escalators are in every shopping mall and every department store, but it’s not common to know of people falling from them or department stores going out of business because of lawsuits; they simply put signs in their escalators indicating there is a danger in using them and recommending how to use them properly. The point is most people do things that imply a certain amount of risk everyday, from crossing the street or driving to work to riding a bicycle.

Sleepless B)
 
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