Sleeping car prices and on-board upgrades

[PaulM]

The July issue of trains magazine contains an article entitled "Find your Amtrak summer rail travel deals" that mirrored two types of AU threads: one a recent hot topic and the other a frequently reoccurring one. The hot topic was sleeping car prices, or more precisely. has Amtrak's revenue management strategy changed. The perennial topic was on-board upgrades and how to outwit conductors who refuse them

The sleeping car price threads quickly veered off into a discussion of whether Amtrak should maximize revenue or not (no - lose as much money as possible?????), But based on the discussions and my experience checking prices on the SWC, I concluded that something had changed, and speculated that Bucketolgy 101 needs to be rethought. The article seems to concur. Like most articles of the type, it tried to personalized the subject with an example, in this case someone wanting to go from CHI to DEN on business. After giving the usual advice to check various dates within a range, it suggests to check back two weeks prior to departure because if too much space remained unsold, the price would drop. It also mentioned that space doesn't always start out at the lowest price. While this makes perfect sense from a revenue management standpoint, it certainly violates the principles of Bucketolgy 101.

The passenger in question checked prior to departure and, judging the price to be still too high, opted to try for an on-board upgrade, a frequent subject of discussion here. When the "recalcitrant" conductor refused, the passenger contacted someone at Amtrak and found that there were 5 roomettes available, not counting any no-shows at Chicago. When confronted with this information, the conductor suddenly became very "friendly" and completed the transaction. Sure, if I had been caught sabotaging my employer, I'd change my tune quickly. Did the conductor become aware that the passenger was a writer for Trains magazine.

The article suggested that the reason the conductor refused was that it was too much work. There was no blarney about the conductor's job being to ensure the safety, blah, blah, blah. Sure, it is the conductor's job, along with the AC, to ensure safety. But according to Amtrak policy and procedures, it is also their job to sell unused space, thus helping the bottom line. If Amtrak thought having conductors and AC's sell space would put the public in danger, they would have someone else sell space. or collect tickets for that matter. After all, there is no federal regulation (oops maybe there is) requiring conductors to sell space. It's merely an age old tradition.

It would be nice if main a stream publication some how or another go a hold of this theme. We might see fewer thread on this topic.

Disclosure: I have no idea how often this occurs or how much money Amtrak loses, if any. I'm just reacting to what on other forums would be called fan-boy defenses of the behavior in question.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Interesting. It's a shame we often have to FIGHT Amtrak employees in order to give them our money. That's not a yield or revenue management issue, that's just bad hiring and firing practices. I live in a state that's generally anti-union and I personally have no idea what role they play in this, but it sure does bother me. Speaking of unsold bedrooms, is it normal for the sleeping car attendent to take up one of the sleeping compartments for their own use? Is this done in every sleeping car and I've just never noticed it until now?

 

[printman2000]

Speaking of unsold bedrooms, is it normal for the sleeping car attendent to take up one of the sleeping compartments for their own use? Is this done in every sleeping car and I've just never noticed it until now?

Yes. They get a room to use for themselves as do all other OBS.

 

[PaulM]

Interesting. It's a shame we often have to FIGHT Amtrak employees in order to give them our money. That's not a yield or revenue management issue, Although, conceivably, the more recalcitrant conductors are, the more full price rooms will be sold.

I didn't suggest that there was a connection between the two, only that the article dealt with both.

Speaking of unsold bedrooms, is it normal for the sleeping car attendent to take up one of the sleeping compartments for their own use? Is this done in every sleeping car and I've just never noticed it until now?

It is my understanding that the SCA attendant uses room 1; and the statement that x rooms are available, x does not include #1.

 

[Bob Dylan]

For your consideration: Instead of taking up so many rooms on the Viewliners, why not have the OBS share a room?

Is it in their contract or is it just tradition? This would open up several revenue rooms on the crowded/sold out trains like the Cardinal/Crescent/LSL. If a roomette is adequate for paying pax,sometimes paying thousands of dollars, why no consider this until Amtrak can get more sleeping cars on the tracks!

On the last trip I made on the Card and Crescent, both trains were sold out @ High Bucket and OBS were occupying lots of the rooms including the H bedroom on the Crescent!This was true in the single sleeper on the Card and in both sleepers on the Crescent!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I agree, they should double-up and cram as many as possible into each room. No need for each car to give each SCA their own private compartment. They're not that much of a benefit to us and they generally look too old, too feeble, and too easily confused to be able to help anyone in a true emergency. Tired old men with nothing better to do than read us the schedule over the PA. Thanks, but no thanks. Get out and offer that room to some revenue pax instead. Sometimes I wonder if Amtrak creates many of their own problems with this kind of wasteful catering to their tenured employees.

 

[Donctor]

I agree, they should double-up and cram as many as possible into each room. No need for each car to give each SCA their own private compartment. They're not that much of a benefit to us and they generally look too old, too feeble, and too easily confused to be able to help anyone in a true emergency. Tired old men with nothing better to do than read us the schedule over the PA. Thanks, but no thanks. Get out and offer that room to some revenue pax instead. Sometimes I wonder if Amtrak creates many of their own problems with this kind of wasteful catering to their tenured employees.

I don't know what trains you've been riding, but that sounds nothing like 90% of my experiences with Amtrak.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I don't know what trains you've been riding, but that sounds nothing like 90% of my experiences with Amtrak.

The Texas Eagle and the Sunset Limited recently. So what exactly does the sleeper car attendent do on your trains?

 

[Guest]

I don't know what trains you've been riding, but that sounds nothing like 90% of my experiences with Amtrak.

The Texas Eagle and the Sunset Limited recently. So what exactly does the sleeper car attendent do on your trains?

I kind of wonder what some of these attendants do as well. People talk about showering them with tips for such great service, but what are they doing? I see the attendant when I get on/off and they fix the bed at night/morning. That is all I really need from them anyway. Am I missing out on something?

 

[PaulM]

I agree, they should double-up and cram as many as possible into each room. No need for each car to give each SCA their own private compartment. They're not that much of a benefit to us and they generally look too old, too feeble, and too easily confused to be able to help anyone in a true emergency. Tired old men with nothing better to do than read us the schedule over the PA. Thanks, but no thanks. Get out and offer that room to some revenue pax instead. Sometimes I wonder if Amtrak creates many of their own problems with this kind of wasteful catering to their tenured employees.

Hey! I tried to start an intelligent discussion. There's plenty of places on the internet for this kind of stuff.

 

[sunchaser]

I don't know what trains you've been riding, but that sounds nothing like 90% of my experiences with Amtrak.

The Texas Eagle and the Sunset Limited recently. So what exactly does the sleeper car attendent do on your trains?

I kind of wonder what some of these attendants do as well. People talk about showering them with tips for such great service, but what are they doing? I see the attendant when I get on/off and they fix the bed at night/morning. That is all I really need from them anyway. Am I missing out on something?

My limited experiences have been SCA's are supposed to ~

Set the beds up for sleeping~

Set them for day use~

Make Coffee, have ice, juice, water available~

deliver morning paper~

make reservations for meals~

bring you a menu, take order & deliver meals to you~

notify you of your stop, or stops in general~

provide a wake up call, if needed~

make sure you get off at your stop~

help you with your luggage~

help you on & off the train, direct you to your room~

make sure towels etc., are available~

Keep the bathrooms clean~

Our last ride we upgraded from roomette to bedroom, he moved our stuff for us & as with previous SCA's, checked on us regularly to see if we needed anything. On the CS, they brought us Champagne splits.

I'm sure there are other things they do, those are things I have seen.

 

[njdon]

I don't know what trains you've been riding, but that sounds nothing like 90% of my experiences with Amtrak.

The Texas Eagle and the Sunset Limited recently. So what exactly does the sleeper car attendent do on your trains?

I kind of wonder what some of these attendants do as well. People talk about showering them with tips for such great service, but what are they doing? I see the attendant when I get on/off and they fix the bed at night/morning. That is all I really need from them anyway. Am I missing out on something?

My limited experiences have been SCA's are supposed to ~

Set the beds up for sleeping~

Set them for day use~

Make Coffee, have ice, juice, water available~

deliver morning paper~

make reservations for meals~

bring you a menu, take order & deliver meals to you~

notify you of your stop, or stops in general~

provide a wake up call, if needed~

make sure you get off at your stop~

help you with your luggage~

help you on & off the train, direct you to your room~

make sure towels etc., are available~

Keep the bathrooms clean~

Our last ride we upgraded from roomette to bedroom, he moved our stuff for us & as with previous SCA's, checked on us regularly to see if we needed anything. On the CS, they brought us Champagne splits.

I'm sure there are other things they do, those are things I have seen.

Thanks Sunchaser, I agree with your list and would add that SCA's, those that really perform, add a great deal to a positive experience when riding in sleepers. Last weekend on the LSL he was the person keeping us informed on the reasons for our delay-tornedo and saw to it that my needs were well taken care of from newspapers to early monring coffee. I don't agree that they should be doubled up-think of what that would do to morale not to mention the issues of room assignments given the gender makeup of train crews. In my view the lack of capacity will only be properly addressed with additional cars. Crew bashing just doesn't do it for me.

 

[BeckysBarn]

For your consideration: Instead of taking up so many rooms on the Viewliners, why not have the OBS share a room? Is it in their contract or is it just tradition? This would open up several revenue rooms on the crowded/sold out trains like the Cardinal/Crescent/LSL. If a roomette is adequate for paying pax,sometimes paying thousands of dollars, why no consider this until Amtrak can get more sleeping cars on the tracks!

On the last trip I made on the Card and Crescent, both trains were sold out @ High Bucket and OBS were occupying lots of the rooms including the H bedroom on the Crescent!This was true in the single sleeper on the Card and in both sleepers on the Crescent!

My last trip, I was in Room 2 across from the SCA. She was sleeping sitting up because her room, including the top bunk, was full of supplies. The seat opposite her was full of cases of water. I'm not sure how you could put more than one person in a room that crowded.

I was only on board the first day, so I'm sure some of the supplies were consumed.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

For your consideration: Instead of taking up so many rooms on the Viewliners, why not have the OBS share a room? Is it in their contract or is it just tradition? This would open up several revenue rooms on the crowded/sold out trains like the Cardinal/Crescent/LSL. If a roomette is adequate for paying pax,sometimes paying thousands of dollars, why no consider this until Amtrak can get more sleeping cars on the tracks!

On the last trip I made on the Card and Crescent, both trains were sold out @ High Bucket and OBS were occupying lots of the rooms including the H bedroom on the Crescent!This was true in the single sleeper on the Card and in both sleepers on the Crescent!

My last trip, I was in Room 2 across from the SCA. She was sleeping sitting up because her room, including the top bunk, was full of supplies. The seat opposite her was full of cases of water. I'm not sure how you could put more than one person in a room that crowded.

I was only on board the first day, so I'm sure some of the supplies were consumed.

I agree, trains I've been on the SCA roomette has always been crammed with supplies, I wondered where they find the space to sack out!

 

[Bob Dylan]

I agree that SCAs on the Superliners have to store their supplies/are crowded in roomette #1! My OP pertained only on Viewliners where there are no trans/crew dorms and OBS take up so many of the scarce rooms! I would exempt the SCA since they have to be on duty so much, the LSAs and TAs could share a roomette since there is more room in the Viewliner roomettes, Superliners are too cramped for LD OBS! I still ask if this is in their contract or just tradition?? It would be temporary until the new dorm/bag cars can be ordered/put on line!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Here's my experience...

Set the beds up for sleeping~ ...Not for me, but this isn't a huge complaint. I read the signs, look at the design, put a hand here and foot there and it's done.

Set them for day use~ ...Well, they always start out this way so I guess I'll have to give them credit for that.

Make Coffee, have ice, juice, water available~ ...Makes sense. Too bad the coffee always tastes terrible and I don't trust warm open juice cartons. Would not be missed.

deliver morning paper~ ...Never been offered or delivered.

make reservations for meals~ ...I've seen the dining car staff do this, but not the SCA

bring you a menu, take order & deliver meals to you~ ...Never been offered or delivered.

notify you of your stop, or stops in general~ ...Yep, he read us the whole schedule in one go. Ugh.

provide a wake up call, if needed~ ...Never been offered yet.

make sure you get off at your stop~ ...Yes, I've certainly seen them do this.

help you with your luggage~ ...I don't think this has ever been offered, but I travel relatively light compared to some.

help you on & off the train, direct you to your room~ ...Yes, they will direct you to your room, true.

make sure towels etc., are available~ ...I rarely see towels in my room but there are generally some around elsewhere.

Keep the bathrooms clean~ ...The sleeper cars to do seem to have cleaner bathrooms that coaches, agreed.

Honestly,some of this could be done by station agents or by one SCA handling multiple cars and some of it simply wouldn't be missed (by me). I'm still young and healthy, so I don't really worry too much about having the SCA help me onto the train, move my luggage around, or put my bed together and what have you. But, I would love it if they could bring some tools on board to fix the seats and beds when they aren't working properly. Maybe Amtrak could drop one of the SCA's and bring a maintenance guy onboard instead? Crazy, I know, but it might increase customer satisfaction over the long haul. You can't perform maintenance work on a moving plane but you might be able to perform some minor interior fixes on a train. Yes, I'm pretty hard on Amtrak employees in my comments, but when I'm on the train itself I'm actually one of the more easy going and forgiving passengers compared to some. Maybe I should be nicer on here and more judgemental on the train.

 

[PaulM]

Maybe Amtrak could drop one of the SCA's and bring a maintenance guy onboard instead? Crazy, I know, but it might increase customer satisfaction over the long haul.

Hey! I'm with you on the one. One sleeper could be marketed as a high maintenance car for those who like things to work and carry a maintenance guy, and the other marketed as a car for the high maintenance types and carry a SCA .

Too bad the coffee always tastes terrible and I don't trust warm open juice cartons. Would not be missed.

I do disagree with your choice of words here. If you said "I don't like the coffee" or "I would not miss it, no one could argue. Personally, I look forward to the coffee in the morning, and I would be up in arms if the SCA failed his duty here, or Amtrak decided to do away with it.

 

[Alice]

SCAs are aware of everyone who belongs in their car, and who needs to walk through it, and challenge anyone else. I think this is a big reason we can generally leave our stuff in the sleepers without it disappearing.

SCAs are aware of the foibles of their car: toilets that need frequent resets, rattles helped by cardboard or duct tape, etc., and sometimes have already taken care of these things without being asked.

I have an idea that in an emergency requiring evacuation, the SCA is responsible for making sure all of their occupants are off and accounted for.

 

[AlanB]

For your consideration: Instead of taking up so many rooms on the Viewliners, why not have the OBS share a room? Is it in their contract or is it just tradition? This would open up several revenue rooms on the crowded/sold out trains like the Cardinal/Crescent/LSL. If a roomette is adequate for paying pax,sometimes paying thousands of dollars, why no consider this until Amtrak can get more sleeping cars on the tracks!

OBS are gauranteed a private room by contract. And seeing as how there are times that the full crew isn't known until shortly before departure, you can't have it any other way anyhow. If you tried, sooner or later you'd end up with one male and one female in the same room, something that wouldn't work well at all.

 

[sunchaser]

Maybe Amtrak could drop one of the SCA's and bring a maintenance guy onboard instead? Crazy, I know, but it might increase customer satisfaction over the long haul.

Hey! I'm with you on the one. One sleeper could be marketed as a high maintenance car for those who like things to work and carry a maintenance guy, and the other marketed as a car for the high maintenance types and carry a SCA .

Too bad the coffee always tastes terrible and I don't trust warm open juice cartons. Would not be missed.

I do disagree with your choice of words here. If you said "I don't like the coffee" or "I would not miss it, no one could argue. Personally, I look forward to the coffee in the morning, and I would be up in arms if the SCA failed his duty here, or Amtrak decided to do away with it.

Maybe I would need the 'high maintenance type' car!!! :lol: :lol:

Last trip, the SCA kept the opened juice on ice, & scolded me for looking around to serve myself. The others had it set up for self serve. I was usually the first one to open the juice up in the AM, so I knew it had not sat open. I was actually surprised that the coffee wasn't real bad-I've tasted much worse at Denny's!

 

[Bob Dylan]

For your consideration: Instead of taking up so many rooms on the Viewliners, why not have the OBS share a room? Is it in their contract or is it just tradition? This would open up several revenue rooms on the crowded/sold out trains like the Cardinal/Crescent/LSL. If a roomette is adequate for paying pax,sometimes paying thousands of dollars, why no consider this until Amtrak can get more sleeping cars on the tracks!

OBS are gauranteed a private room by contract. And seeing as how there are times that the full crew isn't known until shortly before departure, you can't have it any other way anyhow. If you tried, sooner or later you'd end up with one male and one female in the same room, something that wouldn't work well at all.

Thanks Alan, as always you have the answer! Your post brings up another question, if sometimes the OBS isnt known to shortly before train time what happens on SOLD OUT trains? Is there always a certain number of roomettes reserved for OBS automatically, then they can be Sold if any stay open?

(Only talking about Viewliners since there is no dorm car as youve pointed out on single level trains!) I'm not anti-crew in any way, just trying to come up with ideas to help more pax get sleepers on these full/sold out trains till Amtrak can get more into service, hopefully in this lifetime!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

SCAs are aware of everyone who belongs in their car, and who needs to walk through it, and challenge anyone else.

Not always. I walked through the entirety of the SL+TE passenger consist without being challenged (or even noticed) by anyone a little over a week ago. I did the same thing on may previous SL+TE trip with no eyebrows raised and no questions asked of me. Keep in mind that I'm not a small guy, in fact I'm rather tall. I did not attempt to pass through any transition sleepers or into baggage cars or locomotives, so hopefully those are watched a bit more carefully.

I think this is a big reason we can generally leave our stuff in the sleepers without it disappearing.

Maybe I'm just repeatedly missing something, but every time I come back to my roomette the door has slid open due to the movement of the train and no obvious way to lock the door shut when I'm not inside the room. Having an easy way to lock the room would put me more at ease than simply hoping the SCA happens to see someone who shouldn't be in my room during the five or ten seconds it would take for them to grab something.

SCAs are aware of the foibles of their car: toilets that need frequent resets, rattles helped by cardboard or duct tape, etc., and sometimes have already taken care of these things without being asked.

My last SCA had no clue my seat was broken during the multiple hours it had sat unfixed in SAS and no way to address it en route. Even if he did know wouldn't it be more effective to just put in a work order for an actual fix instead of keeping all those problems locked in his head for future Jerry-rigging?

I have an idea that in an emergency requiring evacuation, the SCA is responsible for making sure all of their occupants are off and accounted for.

I've never been involved in any rail related emergency, but seeing the results from previous wreaks does not give me much confidence in Amtrak's SOP. The number of accidents and incidents involving Amtrak is absolutely staggering to me. If any airline had this sort of record it presumably would have folded long ago. I guess this is one area where operating below the public's radar is actually a good thing.

OBS are gauranteed a private room by contract. And seeing as how there are times that the full crew isn't known until shortly before departure, you can't have it any other way anyhow. If you tried, sooner or later you'd end up with one male and one female in the same room, something that wouldn't work well at all.

Seems like they could simply alternate shifts in those situations instead of taking up a whole room for each OBS for the entire length of the trip.

 

[MJL]

To one of the OPs questions -- why not give the conductor a commission on upgrades? A 10 or 20% commission might get the conductor's attention, and still provide additional revenue to Amtrak vs. an empty room(ette).

 

[AlanB]

Your post brings up another question, if sometimes the OBS isnt known to shortly before train time what happens on SOLD OUT trains? Is there always a certain number of roomettes reserved for OBS automatically, then they can be Sold if any stay open?(Only talking about Viewliners since there is no dorm car as youve pointed out on single level trains!) I'm not anti-crew in any way, just trying to come up with ideas to help more pax get sleepers on these full/sold out trains till Amtrak can get more into service, hopefully in this lifetime!

The reason that the OBS isn't always known until the last minute isn't so much that an extra employee is tasked to ride at the last minute, but because someone gets sick or requests a day off and that opening is filled from the extra board.

I believe, although I'm not 100% sure, that the final adjustment for the number of OBS on a given train happens at the 2 week mark prior to departure. It might be a month out, again I'm not sure. Either way at that point any rooms that were blocked out for OBS that won't actually be used for OBS since demand didn't necessitate an extra cook or SA would go on sale.

 

[AlanB]

SCAs are aware of everyone who belongs in their car, and who needs to walk through it, and challenge anyone else.

Not always. I walked through the entirety of the SL+TE passenger consist without being challenged (or even noticed) by anyone a little over a week ago. I did the same thing on may previous SL+TE trip with no eyebrows raised and no questions asked of me. Keep in mind that I'm not a small guy, in fact I'm rather tall. I did not attempt to pass through any transition sleepers or into baggage cars or locomotives, so hopefully those are watched a bit more carefully.

It can happen, but more often than not you will be challenged if the crew doesn't recognize you.

I think this is a big reason we can generally leave our stuff in the sleepers without it disappearing.

Maybe I'm just repeatedly missing something, but every time I come back to my roomette the door has slid open due to the movement of the train and no obvious way to lock the door shut when I'm not inside the room. Having an easy way to lock the room would put me more at ease than simply hoping the SCA happens to see someone who shouldn't be in my room during the five or ten seconds it would take for them to grab something.

Theft isn't a huge problem on Amtrak. However, that is also why we all recommend not leaving anything of value (especially small things like an Ipod) out in plain sight.

SCAs are aware of the foibles of their car: toilets that need frequent resets, rattles helped by cardboard or duct tape, etc., and sometimes have already taken care of these things without being asked.

My last SCA had no clue my seat was broken during the multiple hours it had sat unfixed in SAS and no way to address it en route. Even if he did know wouldn't it be more effective to just put in a work order for an actual fix instead of keeping all those problems locked in his head for future Jerry-rigging?

Do you think that the SCA has time to go test everyone of some 50 seats in the sleeping car before departure? Even if they did, it's unlikely that they could have had it fixed in time before the train departed. They only come on duty about an hour before the train's departure and they have much to do during that time, like placing hand towels & washcloths in every room, something that I've never not seen done. They also have to put away all their supplies and a bunch of other things.

So if a passenger doesn't report a broken seat to the SCA, it's unlikely that they'll ever know, much less write it up for repair on the sheets that they hand in at the end of a run.

I have an idea that in an emergency requiring evacuation, the SCA is responsible for making sure all of their occupants are off and accounted for.

I've never been involved in any rail related emergency, but seeing the results from previous wreaks does not give me much confidence in Amtrak's SOP. The number of accidents and incidents involving Amtrak is absolutely staggering to me. If any airline had this sort of record it presumably would have folded long ago. I guess this is one area where operating below the public's radar is actually a good thing.

Please cite a story that you've seen where the crew didn't evacuate a derailed train or lead passengers to safety.

As for the number of accidents, unless you count grade crossing accidents, it's a very low number.

OBS are gauranteed a private room by contract. And seeing as how there are times that the full crew isn't known until shortly before departure, you can't have it any other way anyhow. If you tried, sooner or later you'd end up with one male and one female in the same room, something that wouldn't work well at all.

Seems like they could simply alternate shifts in those situations instead of taking up a whole room for each OBS for the entire length of the trip.

How do you alternate shifts when OBS work all day long? Most trains only have one cook during off peak times, and one assistant cook during peak times. They already can't handle the load with two in the kitchen, so how do you alternate shifts without hurting customer service? Most trains only have 2 SA or waiters and again they are straining to meet the demands of passengers, so how do you have shifts that would leave only 1 waiter for dinner?