South Dakota Passenger Rail

[Siegmund]

I've had a lingering dream that someday an Amtrak reauthorization act would contain a provision mandating that the network serve all 48 states (or even that some network enhancement initiation be required to improve service to all 48 states - that way Idaho doesn't get off the hook just because the Builder stops in Sandpoint.)

South Dakota is definitely the hardest state to fill that bill, at least with anything other than a short-distance service that barely nicks the edge of the state.

I've spent time turning over exotic solutions for MT, WY, and ID before -- imagining a politician trying to fulfil a mandate to add service to every state with as few trains as possible, and doing something like running a Chicago-Seattle train Denver - Casper - Thermopolis - Laurel - then west or Denver - Cheyenne - Pocatello - Silver Bow then west, rather than restoring both the Pioneer and North Coast Hiawatha. But short of upgrading the ex-Milwaukee mainline through Aberdeen (almost all of it still exists, but it's no speedway) SD doesn't have many options.

 

[dogbert617]

I've had a lingering dream that someday an Amtrak reauthorization act would contain a provision mandating that the network serve all 48 states (or even that some network enhancement initiation be required to improve service to all 48 states - that way Idaho doesn't get off the hook just because the Builder stops in Sandpoint.)

South Dakota is definitely the hardest state to fill that bill, at least with anything other than a short-distance service that barely nicks the edge of the state.

I've spent time turning over exotic solutions for MT, WY, and ID before -- imagining a politician trying to fulfil a mandate to add service to every state with as few trains as possible, and doing something like running a Chicago-Seattle train Denver - Casper - Thermopolis - Laurel - then west or Denver - Cheyenne - Pocatello - Silver Bow then west, rather than restoring both the Pioneer and North Coast Hiawatha. But short of upgrading the ex-Milwaukee mainline through Aberdeen (almost all of it still exists, but it's no speedway) SD doesn't have many options.

Like what another poster said, a train that'd have stops like Omaha-Sioux City-Sioux Falls seems like the best way to bring service back. Or something like the train Milwaukee Road used to run between Aberdeen-Minneapolis, and wouldn't be totally bad to restore since Aberdeen as I recall is the biggest populated city in SD outside of Rapid City and Sioux Falls. And of course, with the big population base in the greater Twin Cities/St. Paul/Minneapolis area, wouldn't be bad to restore.

To expand on that idea of a Omaha-Sioux-City-Sioux Falls train, I'd propose that would run further north, like say to have a stop in Brookings and at least north to Fargo, to connect with the Empire Builder. Of course there's still that annoying problem about Fargo having o-dark-thirty arrival times for the EB, but it's a start of an idea to talk about. And of course, having a second Amtrak train run the EB route, a la what has been proposed between Chicago and Saint Paul, would resolve a lot of the odd running time issues with this train. Just think if say a 2nd train could run, say between St. Paul and Minot(if not also to Williston?) that was 10-12 hours apart from the regular EB schedule, that'd resolve a lot of the o-dark-thirty arrival time complaints in Fargo and Grand Forks!

 

[dogbert617]

Likely Willmar, although neither appears to be on the true "direct" route (there's a couple of cutoffs/crossings to get to Benson from Aberdeen.) I think it's all still technically serviceable/in use, but not 100% sure on that. The route would be a pretty weak one overall, though, both from the Minnesota side and the South Dakota side.

It seems very unlikely that a cross-South Dakota train will come to fruition anytime soon, even with a very friendly legislative environment. What's more likely is that some sort of Twin Cities - Sioux Falls - Sioux City - Omaha - etc. train would start up. I could see some sort of Denver - Rapid City train getting traction, though the lack of a good current route makes it pretty unlikely even in the medium-to-long term. Still, I see that as more likely than a cross-state train, simply because there's more population to pull from on either of those routings.

Speaking of that, I am wondering now if the tracks still are in place west of Rapid City, that'd allow a train to run all the way to like Cheyenne or Denver? Another poster said the tracks between Kadoka to Rapid City had been removed, and that DME railroad was trying to restore the condition of the tracks east of Kadoka. Maybe in the meantime, at least some sort of Amtrak bus thruway connection or 2 could be established, running into the state of South Dakota. At least I remember reading there is bus service to Sioux Falls(and I think also Rapid City?), which is better than nothing.

 

[Deni]

A train that was Omaha-Sioux Falls-Sioux City-St. Paul that connected with the long hoped for Chicago-Quad Cities-Iowa City-Des Moines-Omaha train. That's what I'd like to see.

 

[jis]

Speaking of that, I am wondering now if the tracks still are in place west of Rapid City, that'd allow a train to run all the way to like Cheyenne or Denver? Another poster said the tracks between Kadoka to Rapid City had been removed, and that DME railroad was trying to restore the condition of the tracks east of Kadoka. Maybe in the meantime, at least some sort of Amtrak bus thruway connection or 2 could be established, running into the state of South Dakota. At least I remember reading there is bus service to Sioux Falls(and I think also Rapid City?), which is better than nothing.

I think all really need to crack open a rail map of South Dakota and Wyoming to get connected with realities first.

There never has been any significant line heading west from Rapid City. So no there isn't any line heading west even now. There has been and still is a line heading south to Nebraska.

I have no idea why people are bellyaching about the ex MILW line between Kadoka and Rapid City which has been gone for a while, when there is a perfectly active, currently in use, run by DME, ex-CNW line to Rapid City from Pierre SD. This line ends at some mines or something like that a little past Belle Fourche SD a little ways into Wyoming. I have driven along most of it on roads more or less parallel to it, when I was in Rapid City last. And BTW, it is DSRC that operates the ex-MILW line east of Kadoka now AFAICT. Don't know what they actually run on it, or if they run anything on it at present.

I think there is probability in the delta neighborhood of zero that there will be any Amtrak service that will make it to Rapid City. If it does Rapid City will be a terminating station, since there really is nowhere to go westwards or northwards for that matter, beyond it by rail.

Any plausible Amtrak Thruway bus to Rapid City would likely be a looong one from Fargo via Aberdeen and Pierre, or from the south could be an extension from Sioux Falls (after such a service is established) through Pierre. The other possibility is north from Denver via Cheyenne, but all of them will be quite long bus rides.

 

[jebr]

If Amtrak wanted to offer connecting bus service today, they could ticket on the existing Jefferson Lines schedule from Minneapolis to Rapid City (I think it goes all the way to Billings, actually.) The schedule wouldn't mesh at all (it departs Minneapolis at 6:45 AM,) but it'd tick a box to offer service. It'd be an 11 hour bus ride as well, but again, it'd tick the box with little/no outlay on Amtrak's side. (As a bit of a side tangent, I'd actually like to see Amtrak and Jefferson Lines through-ticket on the noon schedule from Minneapolis to Sioux Falls - there'd be enough padding to connect from 8 and to 7 while adding a fair amount of additional ticketable cities onto Amtrak's network.)

 

[Eric S]

I think Amtrak and Jefferson Lines did offer through-ticketing in the not-so-distant past to/from points in North Dakota and Montana, via a connection in Minot and/or Williston. I seem to recall the connection showing up on Amtrak timetables for a couple of years. A quick glance and the Jefferson Lines route map doesn't show such a route - maybe Jefferson Lines changed its route structure or maybe I'm just mistaken.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

In terms of the entire network (not about serving the population centers in South Dakota, but about improving the network in a way that serves South Dakota), the best route would probably be a North-West one, Dallas-Oklahoma City is already there, perhaps to be extended to Kansas, and then it could go through Omaha, Sioux Falls, and Fargo.

These cities don't make a lot of sense on their own, but it would make a lot of sense in terms of the overall network, because someone in, say, Minnesota can get to Denver in a much more easy fashion than they currently can. Or someone in Iowa who wants to get to Oklahoma. It would, however, also serve three of the five largest cities in South Dakota.

 

[Mark Meyer]

Twin Cities to Sioux Falls is definitely a route that should be pursued, right after the extension of the second Chicago-Twin Cities train to Fargo or Grand Forks. Sioux Falls has a metro area of one-quarter of million people. An all-BNSF routing via Willmar is doable. Willmar is currently a bottleneck, but this should be fixed by 2021 with the much-needed "Willmar Wye" project: https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d8/projects/willmarwye/index.html

The route from the Twin Cities to Willmar goes right through downtown Minneapolis (unlike the current Empire Builder route), and is CTC as far west as Willmar. Willmar to Sioux City is not signaled, but has some power switches on sidings and is equipped with PTC. The track from Willmar to Garretson is good for the maximum of 49 MPH freight without any slower speeds anywhere. The 18 miles from Garretson to downtown Sioux Falls is good only for 25 MPH and would need to be upgraded. The route is 248 miles from St. Paul to Sioux Falls, a distance similar to Chicago to Quincy. Operation beyond Sioux Falls toward Sioux City over a combination of BNSF and DAIR would require upgrading of the entire route, including sidings. Operation beyond Sioux City to Omaha on UP would feature a circuitous approach to Omaha; In other words, Twin Cities to Omaha via Sioux Falls and or Sioux City likely could never be fast enough to draw sufficient ridership. Ideally, the best Twin Cities-Kansas City route continues to the ex-Rock Island via Des Moines where a connection could be made to Omaha. The best option for South Dakota would definitely be connecting Sioux Falls to Minneapolis/St. Paul.

 

[Anthony V]

Twin Cities to Sioux Falls is definitely a route that should be pursued, right after the extension of the second Chicago-Twin Cities train to Fargo or Grand Forks. Sioux Falls has a metro area of one-quarter of million people. An all-BNSF routing via Willmar is doable. Willmar is currently a bottleneck, but this should be fixed by 2021 with the much-needed "Willmar Wye" project: https://www.dot.state.mn.us/d8/projects/willmarwye/index.html

The route from the Twin Cities to Willmar goes right through downtown Minneapolis (unlike the current Empire Builder route), and is CTC as far west as Willmar. Willmar to Sioux City is not signaled, but has some power switches on sidings and is equipped with PTC. The track from Willmar to Garretson is good for the maximum of 49 MPH freight without any slower speeds anywhere. The 18 miles from Garretson to downtown Sioux Falls is good only for 25 MPH and would need to be upgraded. The route is 248 miles from St. Paul to Sioux Falls, a distance similar to Chicago to Quincy. Operation beyond Sioux Falls toward Sioux City over a combination of BNSF and DAIR would require upgrading of the entire route, including sidings. Operation beyond Sioux City to Omaha on UP would feature a circuitous approach to Omaha; In other words, Twin Cities to Omaha via Sioux Falls and or Sioux City likely could never be fast enough to draw sufficient ridership. Ideally, the best Twin Cities-Kansas City route continues to the ex-Rock Island via Des Moines where a connection could be made to Omaha. The best option for South Dakota would definitely be connecting Sioux Falls to Minneapolis/St. Paul.

This is one potential route from the Twin Cities to Sioux Falls, but another potential route would take the train via Mankato, serving more population in the process. The route would run southwest from SPUD to Worthington, where it would turn more westerly to get to Sioux Falls. You can follow the routing on Google Maps to get an idea of the path of it. My questions are: In what kind of condition are the tracks on this routing, and who would be the host railroad(s) of this route?

 

[Mark Meyer]

A Twin Cities- Sioux Falls routing via Mankato would require much more infrastructure investment. Any train would need to originate somewhere in Minneapolis, and then go to St. Paul (via BNSF, not the current Amtrak route) then UP to Agate (Worthington) on a combination of CTC, ABS, and TWC. From Agate to Manley (where the line crosses BNSF's Marshall sub), it is owned by the Ellis and Eastern Railroad (one of many short line operators over the years since jettisoned by the C&NW), as it may be west of Manley outside Sioux Falls, but the line is basically out of service and has been for years. Expect the entire Worthington/Agate to Sioux Falls (61 miles) to be rebuilt from the ground up, prohibitively more expensive than the route via Willmar.

 

[dgvrengineer]

I rode a BNSF special from Lincoln to Sioux City, Sioux Falls, Marshall, Wilmar and St Paul several years ago. The track is all in great shape. It is signaled as stated above by Mark Meyer. But to get to Sioux Falls, you have to back in from Garretson. That took forever! The former Milwaukee route from the south is in bad shape and I'm not sure it is all in service. Probably have to run UP from Omaha to Sioux City as BNSF doesn't have a direct route. UP has upgraded the line from the Twin Cities to Worthington. I heard to 40mph. If so that is class 3 track which allows 60 for passenger trains. I do not think the line is signaled past Mankato. As stated by Mark Meyer, the line from Worthington to Sioux Falls is in very bad shape. They abandoned their track into Sioux Falls and now make a connection with BNSF to access Sioux Falls.

 

[jebr]

The current Minnesota state rail plan (chapter 3 covering passenger rail) has any potential Minneapolis - Sioux Falls train routing via Willmar and down from there, with Minneapolis - Mankato - Worthington - Sioux City being its own separate passenger line. Both of those are considered "20+ year implementation" in terms of timeline, but it's at least in there.

 

[dogbert617]

The current Minnesota state rail plan (chapter 3 covering passenger rail) has any potential Minneapolis - Sioux Falls train routing via Willmar and down from there, with Minneapolis - Mankato - Worthington - Sioux City being its own separate passenger line. Both of those are considered "20+ year implementation" in terms of timeline, but it's at least in there.

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Thanks for mentioning this map. Good to see restoring service to Duluth is in this plan, along with bringing back service to Mankato, Des Moines, and Eau Claire(though I'm sure WI would have to chip in funding for this to occur). And ultimately over time, also to Sioux Falls, Sioux City, and even between Fargo to Winnipeg. If adding service besides the existing EB train would no longer require an o-dark-thirty arrival time into Fargo, that'd be really great.

On a side note, I hope Northstar commuter rail(going northwest from Minneapolis, and long term there is talk about expanding that line to St. Cloud, besides the current bus connection from that commuter rail line) times are expanded. Since I looked at the current schedule, and the schedule of train runs on Northstar was a lot more limited than I thought it'd be. At least the light rail lines that operate in the Twin Cities area, have good frequency and also run late as well.