Southwest Chief Re-Route?

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It would seem to me that it would be a lot cheaper to add longer sidings, or double track where necessary, one of the lines, rather than maintain two and pay property taxes to boot.....
I guess that once a line is gone, it is very unlikely to ever come back. So normally railroads don't abandon trackage unless they're pretty secure that traffic on that line is permanently dead and extremely unlikely to ever return. As long as there is some prospect of revival, however distant, railroads prefer to keep such lines nominally open even if it means slashing maintenance to the point that it isn't really useful.
 
Even Tennessee Pass is not officially abandoned. It is "embargoed", no trains run on it and haven't since the 1990s some time (don't remember the date), but officially it is not abandoned. The rails are still in place, although there is no maintenance being done on it.
 
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Even Tennessee Pass is not officially abandoned. It is "embargoed", no trains run on it and haven't since the 1990s some time (don't remember the date), but officially it is not abandoned. The rails are still in place, although there is no maintenance being done on it.
That I believe is also true of Homestake Pass near Butte MT, on the old route of the Amtrak North Coast Hiawatha and before that NP's North Coast Limited. Montana Railink uses the other ex NP route through Helena and Mullan Pass at present and Homestake Pass is "embargoed" AFAICT.
 
The question is whether a different governor would be trying to reopen Denver-Albuquerque, for which the line actually is useful. Richardson was trying to talk to the Colorado government about that.
It is really not that useful as-is. It would cost so much to get the passenger train down to near the road time that you might as well be thinking High Speed Railroad or nothing:

Back to what was said earlier:

By me: Reality may have set in. The northern part Denver to Pueblo is very congested with freight traffic. The entire route is long and crooked compared to the highway distance. Any Albuquerque to Denver passenger service would be excruciatingly slow without major expenditures on the railroad.

With more detail added by HenryJ: MapQuest list the driving time at around 7 1/2hrs depending on traffic. Greyhound makes the run in 8hrs 10min. By rail it is 479 miles and based on current SWC times from Trinidad and old timetables for the front range, you are looking at 10 to 11hrs.
 
...He said BNSF is working in western Kansas to bring the track speed back up. This may well be for freight purposes. ( A long coal train pulled in westbound, which I had seen while we drove through Lamar. ) I said to him I thought they wanted to abandon Raton Pass. Not necessarily, he said - in his view BNSF is trying to work out an agreement with Amtrak over that. That last statement may be rather vague, but the first one says something.
This.

Just a few short years ago everyone was on the 'say goodbye to the Devil's Lake sub' bandwagon.

Just saying, as I've been saying, that there is a history (which does tend to repeat itself) of BNSF's behavior in a similar situation, and that had a happy ending - at least for those of us who do not live along the possible reroute.
You just need to discover oil in the region. That's what changed BNSF's mind on the Devils Lake sub (that and other people paying for 2/3 of the cost of fixing Churchs Ferry). Wasn't the discovery of oil in the Farmington area, and the resulting shipments of pipes and other drilling equipment a big reason that the D&RG narrow-gauge railroad hung on into the 1960s?
I also think the flooding/trackbed problems BNSF had with the KO sub in 2011 helped move the Devil's Lake agreement along.

One point I'm trying to make, which I don't think I've really articulated (for some reason I love that word ^_^ ), is that BNSF is in a position to 'play hardball' for the best deal it can get, which is what I'm speculating they did in the case of the Devil's Lake sub.

Now was that their plan all along with the Devil's Lake sub? Who knows, but in that case, just as this one, they are the one's holding the cards and they are the only ones who know for certain what those cards/plans are. As I've said before, I do think an enlarged Panama Canal figures into the cards they are holding.
 
I don't think the Devil's Lake issue and Raton Pass are really comparable for the following reasons.

1. BNSF has active shippers on the Devil's Lake Sub on either side of Devil's Lake. Their plan if they didn't raise the line was to simply service them from either end, not abandon the subdivision entirely, but take a relatively short middle section out of service. BNSF has NO shippers between Lamy and Trinidad.

2. A deal was reached that Amtrak, the state of North Dakota, and BNSF each paid one third. It probably penciled out to service the shippers more effectively with a through line when they got a 66% discount on the improvements. The flooding on the KO sub and the oil traffic were probably added incentives.

3. BNSF is apparently handling all the maintenance to keep the speeds up, probably for their own trains. On Raton and also east of La Junta, they are asking for ongoing maintenance to be paid for to keep the speeds up, in addtion to the one-time cost to rehab the line.

Bottom line is they have shippers and traffic on the Devils Lake Sub and therefore a motiviation to keep it open if the numbers would pencil out. They have neither on Raton Pass.
 
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By me: Reality may have set in. The northern part Denver to Pueblo is very congested with freight traffic. The entire route is long and crooked compared to the highway distance. Any Albuquerque to Denver passenger service would be excruciatingly slow without major expenditures on the railroad.
Expenditures which Colorado is likely to have to make anyway if it wants passenger service to Pueblo, or even Colorado Springs.

So that's irrelevant to the question of the Raton Pass line. The only question is whether the relevant state governments care about the route. If Colorado does care, then Colorado will spend the money to get to Pueblo, at which point New Mexico can consider whether it wants to spend the money to get to Albuqeurque.

If they really don't care, someone will probably build houses on the Raton Pass line and make it very hard to get it back.
 
It would seem to me that it would be a lot cheaper to add longer sidings, or double track where necessary, one of the lines, rather than maintain two and pay property taxes to boot.....
In most of the "directional pairs" cases, the freight railroads don't use the two lines *entirely* directionally. There's generally some local, on-line traffic on both.

Or sometimes there are major single-track bridges, and it's easier to keep the two existing single-track bridges than to build a double-track bridge on one of the lines.
 
Even Tennessee Pass is not officially abandoned. It is "embargoed", no trains run on it and haven't since the 1990s some time (don't remember the date), but officially it is not abandoned. The rails are still in place, although there is no maintenance being done on it.

The question is whether a different governor would be trying to reopen Denver-Albuquerque, for which the line actually is useful. Richardson was trying to talk to the Colorado government about that.
It is really not that useful as-is. It would cost so much to get the passenger train down to near the road time that you might as well be thinking High Speed Railroad or nothing:

Back to what was said earlier:

By me: Reality may have set in. The northern part Denver to Pueblo is very congested with freight traffic. The entire route is long and crooked compared to the highway distance. Any Albuquerque to Denver passenger service would be excruciatingly slow without major expenditures on the railroad.

With more detail added by HenryJ: MapQuest list the driving time at around 7 1/2hrs depending on traffic. Greyhound makes the run in 8hrs 10min. By rail it is 479 miles and based on current SWC times from Trinidad and old timetables for the front range, you are looking at 10 to 11hrs.
While the rail time would be more, there's penty of similar cases with Amtrak. Look at the CS, it runs much slower than road time but still gets decent pax. And the Greyhound doesn't really count here because it's an Americanos bus and most people don't use it unless they speak Spanish. Spanish-seakers mainly use it because their drivers speak Spanish well, and often speak no English.

By me: Reality may have set in. The northern part Denver to Pueblo is very congested with freight traffic. The entire route is long and crooked compared to the highway distance. Any Albuquerque to Denver passenger service would be excruciatingly slow without major expenditures on the railroad.
Expenditures which Colorado is likely to have to make anyway if it wants passenger service to Pueblo, or even Colorado Springs.

So that's irrelevant to the question of the Raton Pass line. The only question is whether the relevant state governments care about the route. If Colorado does care, then Colorado will spend the money to get to Pueblo, at which point New Mexico can consider whether it wants to spend the money to get to Albuqeurque.

If they really don't care, someone will probably build houses on the Raton Pass line and make it very hard to get it back.
No, if the line really is long and crooked, Colorado would have to build a new line, essentially, to match road speeds. If so, they might as well build HSR. And I don't understand the part about the houses.
 
So does the S W Chief reach 90 mph between Chicago & Albuquerque?

And how much longer do you think we can ride the current route through Raton Pass?
At most three more years...... but quite possibly less if some disruption (ie: washout) deemed too costly to bother with occurs.
The current operating "contract" expires in January 2016, so I would guess maybe up until then or sometime in 2015
 
Maybe I am wrong here, but shouldn't the freight traffic be just about the same on this segment of the transcon as it is on all the rest of the transcon?
It should except for a few trains coming in and out of the Red River sub,the line that goes to Lubbock and another line that pulles off of the transcon at Clovis.
There's just gonna be a whole lot more Transcon. Right now, there is minimal traffic between Belen and Topeka. True, once they join the transcon at Dailies Junction in Los Lunas, it's the same ol' Transcon from there West. After the reroute, it'll be busy Transcon all the way from Topeka to LA.
Not Topeka to LA, Fort Madison to LA.
 
I would think the track from Lamy to Trinidad would remain in place for future Denver to Albuquerque service someday. But Trinidad to La Junta and east to Newton will just be freight only. Should the coal traffice around Raton and Trinidad come back this could all change.
That line Newton-Trinidad won't just be freight only, it'll get abandoned.
Actually, if you look at the BNSF detailed map, the most likely abandonment would be between Trinidad and La Junta. Coal trains use the Pueblo to Las Animas line every day. Between Las Animas and Dodge City would be questionable depending on how much they use it. They have an alternate route via an affiliated short line between Dodge City and Springfield they could use or they could just use trackage rights on UP to Stratford or Dalhart. Just depends on how important Colorado traffic is to them from the KC gateway. They of course have their own line between Chicago and Denver. It would also depend of whether coal production from the Trinidad/Raton area resumes and where the market is.
Yes the BNSF still uses the line from La Junta to Newton.
 
Maybe I am wrong here, but shouldn't the freight traffic be just about the same on this segment of the transcon as it is on all the rest of the transcon?
It should except for a few trains coming in and out of the Red River sub,the line that goes to Lubbock and another line that pulles off of the transcon at Clovis.
There's just gonna be a whole lot more Transcon. Right now, there is minimal traffic between Belen and Topeka. True, once they join the transcon at Dailies Junction in Los Lunas, it's the same ol' Transcon from there West. After the reroute, it'll be busy Transcon all the way from Topeka to LA.
Not Topeka to LA, Fort Madison to LA.
What is the difference between east and west of Fort Madison?
 
The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.
 
The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.
Ah, now I see that the Transcon actually goes south of Topeka paralleling I-35. Then it turns south and takes a dive towards Amarillo/Clovis, the proposed re-route.

I found this great interactive map about the Transcons: http://www.tradecorridors.com/explore-the-corridors/transcon/. it seems the official Trnascon goes all the way east to Atltanta and also has two parrallel lines on the CHI-KCY. There's also the Midcon, a very interesting line that could be useful for Amtrak expansion.
 
The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.
Right. That's why I was wondering why the other poster has mentioned Fort Madison (and Topeka).
 
I found this great interactive map about the Transcons: http://www.tradecorridors.com/explore-the-corridors/transcon/. it seems the official Trnascon goes all the way east to Atltanta and also has two parrallel lines on the CHI-KCY. There's also the Midcon, a very interesting line that could be useful for Amtrak expansion.
BNSF may now be touting additional lines as spurs of the Transcon. However, as Zephyr17 mentioned, the Transcon has traditionally been understood to mean just the Chicago-Los Angeles ex-ATSF mainline. When people refer to the Transcon, they are almost always referring to CHI-LAX, or some segment thereof. (The second CHI-KCY line is the ex-BN/CB&Q line.)
 
I found this great interactive map about the Transcons: http://www.tradecorridors.com/explore-the-corridors/transcon/. it seems the official Trnascon goes all the way east to Atltanta and also has two parrallel lines on the CHI-KCY. There's also the Midcon, a very interesting line that could be useful for Amtrak expansion.
BNSF may now be touting additional lines as spurs of the Transcon. However, as Zephyr17 mentioned, the Transcon has traditionally been understood to mean just the Chicago-Los Angeles ex-ATSF mainline. When people refer to the Transcon, they are almost always referring to CHI-LAX, or some segment thereof. (The second CHI-KCY line is the ex-BN/CB&Q line.)
Note that they refer to it as the "Transcon" instead of "Southern Transcon". So they may simply mean the transcotinental lines in general, I guess.

Wasn't the other CHI-KCY route operated with the Kansas City/American Royal Zephyrs?
 
Curious....do the 'Transcon' freights still go 'Santa Fe, All The Way'. as in via Joliet-Streator-Chillicothe, or do they go the way the Chief now does, via the former BN line to Galesburg?

I have ridden the old Southwest Limited one time when it detoured from Kansas City to Galesburg on the BN via Quincy....we got back on the ATSF at Galesburg for the final lap into CHI.
 
Curious....do the 'Transcon' freights still go 'Santa Fe, All The Way'. as in via Joliet-Streator-Chillicothe, or do they go the way the Chief now does, via the former BN line to Galesburg?
I believe BNSF puts the fast intermodals on the BN line and the slower manifest and unit trains on the Santa Fe line, IIRC. That was what I heard years ago, anyway.
 
The transcon intermodal trains operate out of Corwith Yard in Chicago, the UPS facility in Willow Springs and a large intermodal facility in Elwood, IL., so they travel the old Santa Fe between Chicago and Los Angeles.

Intermodals on the old BN out of Chicago are headed for the Pacific Northwest.
 
The transcon intermodal trains operate out of Corwith Yard in Chicago, the UPS facility in Willow Springs and a large intermodal facility in Elwood, IL., so they travel the old Santa Fe between Chicago and Los Angeles. Intermodals on the old BN out of Chicago are headed for the Pacific Northwest.
What frieghts use the old BN all the way to KCY?
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="zephyr17" data-cid="466245" data-time="1377920246"><p>

The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.</p></blockquote>

FYI I know where the transcon goes to & from,but I meant the part of the transcon the SWC uses, and it joins it at Fort Madison, or at least near it

anyway.
 
The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.
FYI I know where the transcon goes to & from,but I meant the part of the transcon the SWC uses, and it joins it at Fort Madison, or at least near it anyway.
What? Doesn't the SWC cross over from old ex-CB&Q to ex Santa Fe just outside of Galesburg? Fort Madison is far afar away from where it joins the ex-ATSF.
 
The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.
FYI I know where the transcon goes to & from,but I meant the part of the transcon the SWC uses, and it joins it at Fort Madison, or at least near it anyway.
What? Doesn't the SWC cross over from old ex-CB&Q to ex Santa Fe just outside of Galesburg? Fort Madison is far afar away from where it joins the ex-ATSF.
Yep, just west of Galesburg, at Cameron, IL, 50ish miles east of Fort Madison.
 
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