Southwest Chief Re-Route?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
What if the line is leased for 99 (or some such) years somewhat like NY State has done with CSX for some number of years? In case of New York in effect what has happened is that what really is for all practical purposes a purchase has been arranged with the payment spread out over a long period of time. I would be very surprised if CSX ever gets that property back, unless steel wheel on steel rail transport becomes utterly irrelevant.
 
This clause, designed for "economic development agencies" and similar things, DOES NOT APPLY. First of all, any Raton Pass funding would be special-purpose legislation, not general implementing legislation. Second, BNSF in the Raton region is neither a new business nor an expanding business; and neither is Amtrak!
Maybe I'm clutching at straws here, but if say, Amtrak were to suspend the SWC even for one day, then its reintroduction would count as a new or expanded service, would it not?
No.
 
This clause, designed for "economic development agencies" and similar things, DOES NOT APPLY. First of all, any Raton Pass funding would be special-purpose legislation, not general implementing legislation. Second, BNSF in the Raton region is neither a new business nor an expanding business; and neither is Amtrak!
Maybe I'm clutching at straws here, but if say, Amtrak were to suspend the SWC even for one day, then its reintroduction would count as a new or expanded service, would it not?
That might possibly work, but it would be a real stretch. I don't think the courts would like it much. If the SWC was cancelled for significant periods and the money was spent on reintroduction -- or a second train from Albuquerque to Denver was proposed -- or if BNSF promised that it was going to bring more freight service -- then it probably would count as an expansion.

What if the line is leased for 99 (or some such) years somewhat like NY State has done with CSX for some number of years? In case of New York in effect what has happened is that what really is for all practical purposes a purchase has been arranged with the payment spread out over a long period of time. I would be very surprised if CSX ever gets that property back, unless steel wheel on steel rail transport becomes utterly irrelevant.
That would probably be OK, since there's a concept of "lease which is similar to sale" under law.

With a 99+-year lease, it would be clear that any investment was entirely for the benefit of the leaseholder (since most railroad improvements depreciate over less than 100 years).

However, at the previously quoted price of $5 million to buy the entire line, I really think NM should just buy the entire line. The price is a very good one, and was described as such in previous analyses. The fact that they haven't bought it makes me very suspicious of the intentions of the Martinez/Church government.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
. Table 4.22 FY 2013 Rail Runner Operating Budget

Millions

Source: Rio Metro RTD

Revenues (millions)

Local Gross Receipts Tax $12.51
I'd like to note for the record that this is local funding. No state funding, Martinez ended the state funding. Which is fine; the local funding is doing the job; it's a local service; but you see my point, the state isn't funding it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
However, at the previously quoted price of $5 million to buy the entire line, I really think NM should just buy the entire line. The price is a very good one, and was described as such in previous analyses. The fact that they haven't bought it makes me very suspicious of the intentions of the Martinez/Church government.
I agree. This may be another Indiana/Hoosier State exercise, which I have suspected for a while is just window dressing to finally be able to say "See we tried our best, but now we know it is unworkable". I suppose I am not being my usual optimistic self this morning :(
 
. Table 4.22 FY 2013 Rail Runner Operating BudgetMillionsSource: Rio Metro RTDRevenues (millions)Local Gross Receipts Tax $12.51
I'd like to note for the record that this is local funding. No state funding, Martinez ended the state funding. Which is fine; the local funding is doing the job; it's a local service; but you see my point, the state isn't funding it.
NMRx is majority funded by federal dollars.
 
He said under the current act of the anti donation clause the reason it was created for situations like this. But there is a loophole the original makers left....the state can give money if it benefits the states economy and or citizens!
Unfortunately, nope -- the loophole is *far* more specific than that. It only allows donations under very specific circumstances:"creating new job opportunities by providing land, buildings or infrastructure for facilities to support new or expanding businesses if this assistance is granted pursuant to general implementing legislation that is approved by a majority vote of those elected to each house of the legislature. "This clause, designed for "economic development agencies" and similar things, DOES NOT APPLY. First of all, any Raton Pass funding would be special-purpose legislation, not general implementing legislation. Second, BNSF in the Raton region is neither a new business nor an expanding business; and neither is Amtrak!
Mr. Waskey summarized his findings right at the beginning of his presentation by saying that he found nothing in the anti-donation clause that would prevent the state from financially supporting the Chief. The clause prohibits donations to private enterprise and the cost of railroad construction. Waskey emphasized that Amtrak is a federally charted corporation, funded by the government and under Congressional control -- essentially an agency of the US government and therefore not a private enterprise. Supporting the Chief is not a donation: in this case Amtrak would have "an obligation" back to the state to provide a service.
If the line's owned by BNSF, it's a donation to BNSF, which IS a private enterprise. So the entire discussion is irrelevant.His opinion is deliberately avoiding the key Constitutional point, which is that while the Raton Pass line is owned by BNSF, funding to upgrade the Raton Pass line is a donation to *BNSF*.The court history of the anti-donation clause is one of *extremely strict construction*.If NM *BUYS THE LINE*, the anti-donation clause problems go away immediately, of course. There's no problem in contributing operating funding to Amtrak; there's no problem in contributing capital funding to a line owned by Amtrak; there's no problem whatsoever in contributing capital funding to a line owned by the state. There's a problem in contributing capital funding to a line owned by BNSF.This would be so much simpler if Martinez had consummated the contract to purchase the line.
While the resolution of the anti-donation clause is very positive,
It is NOT resolved. The New Mexico government folks are talking absolute nonsense and will be smacked down HARD by the state courts. There is no loophole available for donations to BNSF for railroad construction! TThis is the *exact situation* which the anti-donation clause was written to deal with. The state has one way out: buy the line, *then* spend money.
we are rapidly approaching the 2015 New Mexico legislative session without a clear definition of Amtrak and BNSF's needs. Church's opinion that Amtrak should commit to the route before the state commits funds for operations and maintenance is very concerning.
This is basically a statement that New Mexico (Governor's office and NMDOT) have no interest in funding the line whatsoever. Since state officials are dissembling regarding the anti-donation clause, and since NMDOT and the government have carefully avoided any discussion of purchasing the line (which would resolve the constitutional problem immediately), there's only one way to interpret this: the state has no intention of spending one red cent, but is trying to avoid saying so.Amtrak, please don't fall for this. Maybe it's expensive to move to the Transcon, but you're not getting one red cent out of New Mexico.
Lang also emphasized that moving the Chief to the Southern Transcon will be a very expensive proposition -- much more expensive than retaining the train on the current route
Sure, but Amtrak can perhaps get funding for moving the train to the Transcon -- from Texas, Kansas, Wichita, and Amarillo. (Very little work is needed in New Mexico, and the City of Albuquerque might pay for it.) Amtrak's getting no funding, zero, none from New Mexico, they've made it 100% clear. Even if they pass a funding bill, they've carefully arranged to pass an *unconstitutional* funding bill which will be struck down by the courts! Amtrak should want nothing to do with this!I would like to talk to Ray Lang and get his head straightened out. Martinez and Church are playing him for a fool; their goal seems to be to spend no money whatsoever, but to string Amtrak along so long that Amtrak can't make alternate plans. This is a recipe for cancelling the SW Chief *entirely*.----Lang and Boardman need to put this in very blunt terms to Church and Martinez. They need to say: if NM purchases the Raton Pass line from BNSF, Amtrak will stay on the line. If NM does not purchase it, Amtrak will not.A purchase would make it constitutional for NM to spend more money on the line, and more importantly, would be a show of good faith on the part of a state government which has shown no good faith.
look dude believe what you want to believe and I know what is. If you right then cool no big deal...if I'm right then you really need to get your facts straight.
 
. Table 4.22 FY 2013 Rail Runner Operating BudgetMillionsSource: Rio Metro RTDRevenues (millions)Local Gross Receipts Tax $12.51
I'd like to note for the record that this is local funding. No state funding, Martinez ended the state funding. Which is fine; the local funding is doing the job; it's a local service; but you see my point, the state isn't funding it.
NMRx is majority funded by federal dollars.
By your on uncited numbers, Federal dollars barly contribute a third of revenue - $7.8M vs $12.5M in local taxes on a revenue of $25M.
nmrxlmnop,

You're allegedly in great knowledge of both sides of the issue. Just tell us what you think is a) holding up negotiations, and b) what the ultimate conclusion will be and c) when.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I want to see the links too, I'm dying to see where this study says that ridership would be reduced on the Transcon route, given that the population of Amarillo alone is greater than all stops on the current line from Hutchinson to Lamy combined. Someone pointed out earlier that an Amarillo stop would also draw riders from Lubbock. I don't know what crystal ball was used for this ridership projection but it sounds like it's cracked.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
nmrxabqfan101 : Frankly, I want to be wrong! I want you to be right!

But everything I am seeing out of Governor Martinez's office is throwing up the red flags for me.

It really looks like they're just pretending to be interested in funding the Raton Pass line, in order to appease the local government -- it really looks like they're planning to not spend money. I am really suspicious of Governor Martinez'z office and of Church at NMDOT.

Chey: the study showed that ridership *from New Mexico* would drop substantially, which is obviously true.

If this would be replaced with ridership from Texas (which it would), presumably nobody in New Mexico cares, they don't want Texas to reap the benefits.
 
Clovis will be a stop in New Mexico. along with Clovis is Portales and in addition to the general population there is an active Air Base, Eastern New Mexico University, and New Mexico Military Institution. The population base of this area is more than twice the population base of Raton and Las Vegas combined. An interesting side view----- Amarillo, Lubbock and Clovis form a triangle (each near 100 miles apart) and within that triangle there is near 1 million people.
 
It has a 90 mph section in Missouri between La Plata and outside KC, A lot of the route from Dalies (junction with the Transcon south of Albuquerque) and Winslow and there are other stretches between Williams Jct. and Barstow.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So when does a decision need to be made for the route? Are we waiting on New Mexico to agree to contribute its share? I have read that the cost to reroute to the Transcon would be just as expensive as staying on the current route, so if it can't stay on the current route, does that mean the entire SWC route would be eliminated?
 
Last edited:
If past patterns are followed, it is highly unlikely that the train will be eliminated. There will be horsetrading. Things will go down to the wire involving considerable brinkmanship.

Speculators on AU and other boards both positive and negative will have a field day. The likes of Don Phillips will be able to write more anti-Boardman stuff to sell more Trains Magazines. URPA and RailPAC will go ballistic many times blaming NEC a million times for all ills of the world at large, including the fate of the SWC. Charlie will post many balanced articles trying to calm everyone, and urge everyone to join NARP. Ryan will keep asking for reference to third party documents, and they will not be provided.

And ultimately in all likelihood, some unanticipated combination of things will happen and the train will continue to run, maybe via Pueblo, maybe via Amarillo, and even maybe via the current route.

Unless of course the Republicans change the game and become way more active than they are at present with the singular goal of terminating all LD service. That seems relatively unlikely except for occasional grandstanding purposes, to hide some egregious funding of some rich friends behind the Amtrak smokescreen. :p
 
The original date given is 12/31/14 for funding to be in place. Amtrak said they would need a year to get ready.
 
That would be part of the standard practice of brinkmanship. It is highly unlikely that if a solution were found mid-year 2015, Amtrak and BNSF would refuse to figure out a way to make the best of it.

We from the software industry have seen deadlines come and deadlines go and then things get done anyway. Deals happen and life goes on.
 
We from the software industry have seen deadlines come and deadlines go and then things get done anyway. Deals happen and life goes on.
Now THAT is what I have wanted to articulate for a VERY long time. With everything from the building of the stations in Hope, SPUD, Miami ITC, and even our friends at the FEC for AAF - almost nothing never happens just because a date has occured.
 
Amtrak has, so far, refused to talk to the city leaders of Amarillo and Wichita (who are both, frankly, itching for train service). Amtrak said that after New Years they would start talking to Amarillo and Wichita and Clovis and so on. (This was the meaning of the "deadline".) Let's see if that actually happens. That should at best cause a lot of money to come pouring out from the cities on the Transcon, and at worst cause the cities on the Raton line to take the issue more seriously.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
In reality, what is today is what will be 1/1/15 regarding this issue because all State Governments involved are on Christmas break. Stop and think about it-- in a reroute New Mexico is really not loosing money or service, they are just changing locations which will more than double potential ridership in the state, the Boy Scout riders of three months out of the year will be replaced with year-round riders. The only Boy Scout riders that will be a loss are those in Kansas and Colorado-- those east of Newton will not be effected, they will just have a longer bus ride. If bus ride begins at Albuquerque or Amarillo It is same distance to the Camp. Those coming from east would probably detrain in Amarillo and be in Camp by time train reaches Albuquerque. Those from west will detrain in Albuquerque. Another saving for New Mexico will be the 22 mile stretch of track from Lamy going west that they will not have to pour money into for repairs and upgrade. All focus have been on loss and gains have not been considered.
 
I would not expect the loss from the boy scouts and all the other little stations on the Raton route in New Mexico to be replaced by Clovis and Portales alone -- this is how a *New Mexico specific* study could say that the reroute would be a small loss in business for *New Mexico*.

The gains from Amarillo and Wichita would be huge, though. I've gone through this before. From Amtrak's point of view as a business, Amtrak should want the reroute.

The loss of Hutchinson (would have to drive to Newton) is more than balanced out by the gain in Wichita (wouldn't have to drive to Newton). Shuttles from Santa Fe to Lamy can be replaced by shuttles from Santa Fe to Albuquerque. And the gain in Amarillo alone should exceed the total loss of every station from Dodge City to Las Vegas.

Of the lost stations, the Boy Scouts and Dodge City are the only significant losses in financial terms. Everything from Garden City to Las Vegas is not only small but also losing population. And the Boy Scouts are losing membership at a fast clip, too. There's already a bus through all the Kansas cities on the line, on uncrowded highways, so, Thruway bus easy.

Effectively Amtrak would get the same, or greater, ridership off of two stations which Amtrak currently gets off of *nine* stations -- and three of these existing stations are even staffed. This is a significant savings.

The chance of getting the Southwest Chief in the near term should really interest Wichita, which has been trying to get both Kansas City and Dallas/Fort Worth service for a long time. This might be the incentive they need to renovate Wichita Union Station for train service; it is in the hands of a train-friendly developer already. This should also make the proposed Heartland Flyer extension easier, avoiding messing around at Newton for connections.

I see absolutely no downside for Amtrak in the long term to switching routes.

There's a downside for BNSF, of course. But the Transcon line is nearly entirely double-tracked (funding for the bridge in Vaughn has apparently been committed) -- that leaves, by my count, the bridge in Ft Sumter and three bridges northeast of Avard OK, and I'd expect BNSF to double-track those for its own account. With this line double-tracked and running mostly fast intermodals, Amtrak should be able to cruse between stations at 70 mph without causing much interference. BNSF might ask for some sidings between Mulvane, Wichita, and Newton, where Amtrak would run contrary to BNSF's "flow of traffic".

I would expect that BNSF would ask for each station to have a passenger siding. This is easy in Wichita, which is designed for it, and pretty easy in Amarillo too. BNSF might even want a siding on each side, which is more work but quite possible in both locations. This means the stations would be expensive -- and so the localities would certainly have to pay for them, not Amtrak. But Wichita and Amarillo are quite likely to actually *do* so.
 
Why do think Clovis stop will have negligible ridership?
Oh, if it were built and served, it would do OK. Clovis is a bit smaller than Hutchinson, a bit larger than Dodge City; with Portales, you'd get tolerable ridership, I guess. It's a lot smaller than Amarillo. There would be people driving from Lubbock to Amarillo or Clovis, of course.

But I'm not sure Clovis would actually be willing & able to put up the money to build the sort of stop BNSF would most likely demand, at least not right away. I think the odds of Amarillo and Wichita putting up the money are quite high. My main point is that even with stops *only* in Amarillo and Wichita, the route would most likely be an improvement for Amtrak ridership.

----

Regarding Boy Scouts, I had a thought. I wonder how many of them take the Cardinal to Prince for the Boy Scout Jamboree in Mount Hope, WV? It's a MUCH shorter bus ride from the train station than the ride from Raton to Philmont.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top