Southwest Chief Re-Route?

[Paulus]

Just out of curiosity, and I'm sure no one here can probably answer this, but I wonder how Scout ridership to Philmount via Raton has been affected by the children's rate max age change from 17 to 12? The cost has doubled for the majority of the scouts... Wonder if that's been reflected in revenue, or if ridership has dropped...

How did you determine that the majority of scouts are older than twelve? In any case I'd imagine that most scout troupes are handled through group sales rather than general reservations.

Because the minimum joining age is 11?

Can't believe that this got money and SMART's Larkspur extension didn't.

 

[user 1215]

First of all, the context of my message is regarding Scouts that camp at Philmont. Boy Scouts have to be 11 or 6th grade to join, unless transferring from a Webelos cub scout den when they cross over in 5th grade. Most trips to Philmont (though perhaps recently changed) required a minimum age of 16. This is still the general guideline for most scout councils, as this is considered "High Adventure". Finally, I included the caveat "most" because someone is always bending or breaking guidelines and rules, and I hate to be an absolutist.

I was a cub scout Cub Master (Cub Master of the Year in my Council's district) for 3 years and was active in my son's boy scout troop as well.

I also lived in New Mexico for 2 years, though I have never been to Philmont myself.

Would you like references and contacts?

 

[Ryan]

I went to Philmont at 14, which I think has always been the age for the High Adventure camps.

It was also my first time on Amtrak, and it certainly sparked my love of train travel, so there is some benefit to Amtrak beyond the immediate fare for that one trip.

Edit: Yep. 14, or 13 and completed with the 8th grande (which means I could have gone a year earlier, since I have an October birthday).

Youth Participants

A youth must be 14 years of age OR 13 years of age and completed the 8th grade by date of participation. To avoid disappointment, please do not request or expect exceptions! Requirements for Philmont participation cannot be relaxed.

http://www.scouting.org/Philmont/Camping/WhoCanCome/CrewRequirements.aspx

 

[user 1215]

I guess we just had different rules in our council. At any rate, the Amtrak fare has doubled for participants.

 

[Bedford]

I was on the Chief in early June and the Scouts in the lounge had a "Save the Chief" petition they were asking us to sign.

 

[neroden]

Bah. The places along the route have had years to come up with something and the best they can do is to get a federal grant which doesn't even pay for the entire Kansas route and which really should have gone to something more valuable. I wish Amtrak would stop screwing around and start talking to Amarillo, which seems really eager.

Magliari's comments are confusing, but it seems like he may be saying that they can put off the decision to move if they repair the Kansas track. Which would be ridiculous. Semaphores across Raton Pass, they won't last, does Amtrak really want more dark territory running?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

A couple of observations:

1) The TIGER grant buys time for the political climate in New Mexico to change.

2) It seems pretty clear that Amtrak wants to keep the SWC where it is, especially if it stays going through Kansas. I don't think Amtrak wants the train to wander and weave through the entire Southwest to try and hit every town with a good sized population.

3) Of course the politicians and local press in Amarillo will put a pro-Amarillo spin on this development. The politicians in Amarillo would not be looking out for their town if they did not, and the local media would just p*ss off their readers if they did not follow suit.

4) Amarillo can't expect much support on the state level for a routing through Texas.

5) I can wolf down large amounts of Mexican food.

 

[neroden]

A couple of observations:

1) The TIGER grant buys time for the political climate in New Mexico to change.

It won't, not in the next few years. Stop screwing around, Amtrak.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2014/governor/nm/new_mexico_governor_martinez_vs_king-3271.html

 

[The Davy Crockett]

A couple of observations:

1) The TIGER grant buys time for the political climate in New Mexico to change.

It won't, not in the next few years. Stop screwing around, Amtrak.

While nothing is certain this far out from election day, I agree that there it is not likely to be a change in governors in NM this Fall.

The question is how will the TIGER grant change things in terms of timing of the possible reroute. You seem anxious to see the reroute. However, those who are not, which sure seems to include Amtrak, could possibly, as you put it, 'screw around' waiting for a change in climate. If BNSF wants to keep the SWC off the Transcon, they too could 'screw around,' much like they did with the Devil's Lake sub with the EB, to get the best deal for them. Then the politicians, BNSF, Amtrak, etc., etc. will all claim victory and agree to an agreement.

We can speculate till the 'vacas' come home, but only time will tell.

 

[rrdude]

I went to Philmont at 14, which I think has always been the age for the High Adventure camps.

It was also my first time on Amtrak, and it certainly sparked my love of train travel, so there is some benefit to Amtrak beyond the immediate fare for that one trip.

Edit: Yep. 14, or 13 and completed with the 8th grande (which means I could have gone a year earlier, since I have an October birthday).

Youth Participants

A youth must be 14 years of age OR 13 years of age and completed the 8th grade by date of participation. To avoid disappointment, please do not request or expect exceptions! Requirements for Philmont participation cannot be relaxed.

http://www.scouting.org/Philmont/Camping/WhoCanCome/CrewRequirements.aspx

Philmont, and other BSA High Adventure Treks, require age of 14, OR, 13 and have finished the 8th grade.

 

[neroden]

The question is how will the TIGER grant change things in terms of timing of the possible reroute. You seem anxious to see the reroute. However, those who are not, which sure seems to include Amtrak, could possibly, as you put it, 'screw around' waiting for a change in climate.

No business sense there. As the train goes slower and slower through low-population areas which don't even vote for Amtrak (yes, I went through the area one Congressional district at a time -- there are more votes on the Transcon route), this would be screwing their own business. Which railroads have done before, but I don't like watching it being done, because it's really bad long-term; it leads to the elimination of routes.

If BNSF wants to keep the SWC off the Transcon, they too could 'screw around,' much like they did with the Devil's Lake sub with the EB, to get the best deal for them.

Well, OK, that would show business sense on the part of *BNSF*.
The Devil's Lake situation started out the same, but ended quite differently: the towns and the state jumped to support the route *immediately*, with a *lot* of money.

 

[the DUCK]

Things we DO Know 1. The state of new Mexico and its governing bodies by its constitution can NOT give any monies to private railroads. 2.The bill that Colorado passed has clause that they can disperse monies for rail upgrade only if New Mexico and Kansas pass a similar bill. Question--- How is Colorado effected by New Mexico? 3. Amtrak deadline for monies is Dec.31,2014. Can Colorado change its bill in time? There are two routes north out of Amarillo --- one goes to Trinidad and other goes to Lajunta. Either one could be used by Southwest Chief. Could it be---that BNSF is trying to separate its fast moving traffic from its slower moving traffic? If so, good idea.

 

[sechs]

Here is another article...

http://sangrechronicle.com/raton_comet/article_755eae3a-3901-11e4-8439-001a4bcf887a.html

Where it says...

A map of tracks owned by BNSF Railway, formerly the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway, which owns the tracks the Southwest Chief follows, shows the train could turn south from Las Animas, Colo., to Amarillo, Texas, bypassing parts of Northern New Mexico on its current route, including the Lamy station southeast of Santa Fe.

Say what?

Apparently this money only saves the train through Kansas and Eastern Colorado. None of this is making any sense to me.

They obviously haven't been on the ground.

Unless there's been track changes, it's not possible to enter the Boise City Sub (towards Amarillo) from the east at Las Animas Junction. You have to go through the wye at La Junta and back-track.

It's also not possible to enter the Twin Peaks Sub (also towards Amarillo) from the east without going through the wye to the Spanish Peaks Sub, before Trinidad (i.e., an extensive reverse).

 

[sechs]

I have to wonder if there is a parallel to the Devils Lake line rebuild. If BNSF were to get enough of a significant increase of freight traffic to stress the transcon having an alternate (first class) line available might come in handy. Running some empty coal trains might make sense with a shorter route Alberquerque-Pueblo via Raton even with steeper grades vs the longer routes via Amarillio with the line upgraded and less fragile.

Especially if someone else pays for it.

Yes Karl... this is what I think too. BNSF gets a secondary line in case anything happens to the Transcon (huge increase in traffic, incident, etc.)... Amtrak keeps their line and stays out of the Transcon traffic, and BNSF basically gets the upgrade costs paid for, but will have to continue maintenance. Seems pretty logical and clever to me!

Free or cheap maintenance is always good, but I'm not so sure that there's a big difference between running Amtrak on the backwaters of the the La Junta Sub and the well-staffed and matintained Southern Transcon.

Except for Amtrak, there's basically only agricultural traffic on the La Junta Sub, which is nothing most of the year. BNSF still has to pay to maintain and dispatch the line for passenger service year-round.

They don't need the La Junta Sub as a secondary line, and they certainly don't need the Raton Sub. BNSF still has the Northern Transcon, the route through Nebraska, and trackage rights on UP to west of Denver.

 

[neroden]

Unless there's been track changes, it's not possible to enter the Boise City Sub (towards Amarillo) from the east at Las Animas Junction. You have to go through the wye at La Junta and back-track.

Eh, building a third leg on a wye at Las Animas in the middle of rural Colorado is cheaper than rehabilitating & resignalling the entire Raton Pass line.

 

[sechs]

Unless there's been track changes, it's not possible to enter the Boise City Sub (towards Amarillo) from the east at Las Animas Junction. You have to go through the wye at La Junta and back-track.

Eh, building a third leg on a wye at Las Animas in the middle of rural Colorado is cheaper than rehabilitating & resignalling the entire Raton Pass line.

Not free, nonetheless. Especially considering that little work is actually necessary to maintain the Raton Sub for passenger traffic.

It will just go slower and slower each year.

 

[neroden]

Not free, nonetheless. Especially considering that little work is actually necessary to maintain the Raton Sub for passenger traffic.

It will just go slower and slower each year.

Which is not acceptable, for fairly obvious reasons!

 

[the DUCK]

To The Davy Crockett ---you might want to get your wallet fattened up because it sure does look like the Southwest Chief will be rerouted through Amarillo. If the Chief leaves current route at: 1. Newton, it will come through Amarillo 2 Las Animas, it will come through Amarillo 3. Trinidad, it will come through Amarillo Besides New Mexico will offer more year round ridership with the reroute. Yes, the "Big Texan" is still in Business and they still have the "Free Meal"---requirements posted on their website. A lot of bloggers would probably like to join you three-- Dutch of course. Let us Know,

 

[SubwayNut]

I just found another link on this story from KRCC, the NPR station in Southeast Colorado: http://krcc.org/post/southwest-chief-application-receives-tiger-grant

 

[neutralist]

There are about 4 million boy scout members including staff. Each one come up with $25 would save the Raton sub. It is a formidable force, now all we need is some rallying..... unless you are pro-reroute of course.

 

[the DUCK]

What we are talking about is just giving Warren Buffett another 100 Million dollars. How does that sit with you? A bus ride is a lot less expensive. A lot to do with the scouts depends where they are coming from (that ride the train)., BNSF has on purpose let the Lamy to La Junta section go to pot because they don't intend to use that section ever again . They can put sidings ,or triple track the Transcon for less than rebuilding the Raton Sub. `

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I think we might have a "guest duck troll" in the house. hboy:

Certainly a quack. :lol:

 

[jis]

The $100 million is mainly for running a train we want run. I don't see how that suddenly becomes giving $100 million to Buffet for nothing. Similarly I also just gave United Airlines for getting myself from point A to point B that I wanted to get to. Does that also count as a donation to United?

New York State just entered into a lease agreement with CSX to gain dispatching control and take over maintenance responsibility, in conjunction with Amtrak of the CSX main line between Poughkeepsie and Hoffamns. Is this just giving money to CSX? If the deal with BNSF for the Raton route is properly structured I and I am sure many others have no problem with contributing money to run the train we want run.

OTOH, there are many ways of structuring the deal wrongly too, which should be avoided. Frankly New Mexico is not being particularly useful in putting a deal together unlike New York State was with CSX.

 

[neroden]

OTOH, there are many ways of structuring the deal wrongly too, which should be avoided. Frankly New Mexico is not being particularly useful in putting a deal together unlike New York State was with CSX.

Indeed.
If Governor Martinez had not *backed out* on the agreement to buy the entire Raton Pass line from Lamy to Trinidad for $5 million dollars, the situation would be much simpler; it would be a state-owned line and any investment would clearly go to the benefit of the public.

 

[the DUCK]

The governor did what any prudent leader would have done. In essence BNSF killed the deal. It is posted on the internet. You just don't want to know. If you do you will find it. Now to the present--- The study bill New Mexico passed, did it die or is it alive? It is bill #117. Was to have been ready by 1st of October. I am reading that it died in Finance committee Would some one else please read and report what you find. Granted the reroute would give more ridership.