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Railfan1001

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Why is it that trains are limited to 79mph on the majority of trackage that amtrak runs on.
 
Why is it that trains are limited to 79mph on the majority of trackage that amtrak runs on.
In short, any speeds higher than 79 mph requires additional equipment to run the train, such as (correct me if I'm wrong) cab signaling, positive train control, etc, and since the freight railroads can't haul anything faster than 70 mph, an improvement to allow higher passenger train speeds wouldn't really do much for their investment.
 
Why is it that trains are limited to 79mph on the majority of trackage that amtrak runs on.
In short, any speeds higher than 79 mph requires additional equipment to run the train, such as (correct me if I'm wrong) cab signaling, positive train control, etc, and since the freight railroads can't haul anything faster than 70 mph, an improvement to allow higher passenger train speeds wouldn't really do much for their investment.
Thanks so much that was very helpful
 
The specific requirement that gets you the 79 mph and not 80 mph is found in the Code of Federal Regulations under:

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

PART 236--RULES, STANDARDS, AND INSTRUCTIONS GOVERNING THE INSTALLATION, INSPECTION, MAINTENANCE, AND REPAIR OF SIGNAL AND TRAIN CONTROL SYSTEMS, DEVICES, AND APPLIANCES

The exact statements involved are in Section 236.0. The bold is my addition, put in to highlight the requirements that give us the two rather strange speed limits, 59 mph and 79 mph.

Sec. 236.0, Applicability, minimum requirements, and civil penalties.
( a ) Except as provided in paragraph ( b ) of this section, this part applies to railroads that operate on standard gage track which is part of the general railroad system of transportation.

( b ) This part does not apply to rail rapid transit operations conducted over track that is used exclusively for that purpose and that is not part of the general system of railroad transportation.

( c ) Where a passenger train is operated at a speed of 60 or more miles per hour, or a freight train is operated at a speed of 50 or more miles per hour, a block signal system complying with the provisions of this part shall be installed or a manual block system shall be placed permanently in effect which shall conform to the following conditions:

(1) A passenger train shall not be admitted to a block occupied by another train except under flag protection;

(2) No train shall be admitted to a block occupied by a passenger train except under flag protection;

(3) No train shall be admitted to a block occupied by an opposing train except under flag protection; and

(4) A freight train, including a work train, may be authorized to follow a freight train, including a work train, into a block but the following train must proceed prepared to stop within one-half the range of vision but not exceeding 20 miles per hour.

( d ) Where any train is operated at a speed of 80 or more miles per hour, an automatic cab signal, automatic train stop or automatic train control system complying with the provisions of this part shall be installed.
Paragraph (d) is the specific answer to the specific question asked, but I threw in the rest because it explains several other things, like why the Vermonter is limited to 59 mph north of White River Junction and why the Sunset Limited, when it ran east of New Orleans was limited to 59 mph between Flomaton AL and Tallahassee FL. These lines have no signals.
 
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In short, any speeds higher than 79 mph requires additional equipment to run the train, such as (correct me if I'm wrong) cab signaling, positive train control, etc, and since the freight railroads can't haul anything faster than 70 mph, an improvement to allow higher passenger train speeds wouldn't really do much for their investment.
The Rail tracks Wikipedia article indicates that 80 MPH is the speed limit for freight on class 5 track.

(Freight trains operated at speeds that take advantage of the speeds allowed by class 6 and higher have to meet the weight restrictions for passenger trains, so I believe this means that heavy freight trains are limited to 80 MPH.)

I think what it boils down to is that the difference between 79 MPH and 80 MPH is almost irrelavant compared to the cost of installing cab signaling or automatic train stop along some track, and these technologies are not really worth investing in just for the benefit of passenger trains for track that sees one passenger train a day in each direction.
 
Which is also what you get when you go to the source:

in the CFR, paragraph 213.9: Classes of track, operating speed limits (all these are in mph for those that think in km/h)

Class 1: Freight 10, Passenger 15

Class 2: Freight 25, Passenger 30

Class 3: Freight 40, Passenger 60

Class 4: Freight 60, Passenger 80

Class 5: Freight 80, Passenger 90

And while I am playing around in the book:

In paragraph 213.307: (same title)

Class 6: 110 mph

Class 7: 125 mph

Class 8: 160 mph

Class 9: 200 mph

If we want to go faster, some new classes will need to be developed.

There is a lot of track out there in the west, particularly, that allows freight trains 70 mph, and some 75 mph, so that has to be kept to class 5. Much of the BNSF between Albuquerque and Barstow does have a passenger speed limit of 90 mph, because the line has the signal equipment necessary for it to be allowed.
 
In short, any speeds higher than 79 mph requires additional equipment to run the train, such as (correct me if I'm wrong) cab signaling, positive train control, etc, and since the freight railroads can't haul anything faster than 70 mph, an improvement to allow higher passenger train speeds wouldn't really do much for their investment.
The Rail tracks Wikipedia article indicates that 80 MPH is the speed limit for freight on class 5 track.

(Freight trains operated at speeds that take advantage of the speeds allowed by class 6 and higher have to meet the weight restrictions for passenger trains, so I believe this means that heavy freight trains are limited to 80 MPH.)

I think what it boils down to is that the difference between 79 MPH and 80 MPH is almost irrelavant compared to the cost of installing cab signaling or automatic train stop along some track, and these technologies are not really worth investing in just for the benefit of passenger trains for track that sees one passenger train a day in each direction.
I thought the 70/75mph top for freight was because of the lower-quality bearings used, back when Amtrak ran express service they ran boxcars and road railers at 90mph. It would seem like raising freight speeds on intermodals and roadrailers would be a great marketing point for the railroads on time-sensitive freight such as UPS, and other express shipping customers.

Trucks would have nothing on a 90mph hot-shot intermodal. Not to mention the AutoTrain could finally exceed 70mph.
 
Not to mention the AutoTrain could finally exceed 70mph.
First I suspect that the new car carriers introduced about two year ago are cabable of going fast than 70 MPH.

However, doing so would be useless to the Autotrain. A faster runing time than what they have now would either mean having to drop dinner service since they'd need to leave later, or it would have them arriving too early at the other end, such that breakfast could not be served.

This is one train that won't benefit from a faster running time.
 
I'll be taking the Auto Train for the first time this Christmas, so my feelings may change, but I wouldn't mind at all giving up a meal on the train (particularly breakfast, in order to get an earlier start in Sanford). Plus, since the Auto Train shares much of the same route as the Silver Service, upgrades could provide a benefit to these trains as well, right? 3 for the price of one would make this a prime candidate, in my book.
 
I'm not quite sure what the "same route as Silver Service" comment was meant for with respect to Auto-Train. It does not stop anywhere to pick up or discharge passengers along the route. The fact that it shares a common route with one or both Silver Service trains (depending where you are on the route) is basically irrelevant, as it does not stop at any of those stations to pick up or drop off passengers. You get on at one end of the route and get off at the other, period. The only stops are for crew changes or fuel, really. You MUST be taking a vehicle along in order to book travel on Auto-Train, and they load vehicles at one end of the route and unload them at the other, no intermediate passenger stops at all.
 
Why is it that trains are limited to 79mph on the majority of trackage that amtrak runs on.
After taking the Vermonter, I would ask why the train is limited to 9mph on the majority of VT trackage. :D
 
I'm not quite sure what the "same route as Silver Service" comment was meant for with respect to Auto-Train. It does not stop anywhere to pick up or discharge passengers along the route. The fact that it shares a common route with one or both Silver Service trains (depending where you are on the route) is basically irrelevant, as it does not stop at any of those stations to pick up or drop off passengers. You get on at one end of the route and get off at the other, period. The only stops are for crew changes or fuel, really. You MUST be taking a vehicle along in order to book travel on Auto-Train, and they load vehicles at one end of the route and unload them at the other, no intermediate passenger stops at all.
I'm well aware of those facts. However, if the signaling along the route is upgraded, all of the trains on that route would be able to take advantage of those upgrades, regardless of where along the route the individual trains stop.
 
Is Vermonter the slowest amtrak train, mph ?
I hesitate to admit it, but your question drove me to actually open my timetable and pretty much make an audit of train miles traveled vs time taken to see what train, on average is the slowest in Amtrak's system, bumper to bumper, over the entire trip.

I didn't check every single train, but I did try to check every route.

The slowest train that I could find was the Adirondack, which runs NYP-Montreal. Now, realize I COUNTED the dwell time for US/Canadian customs in the average, so that cuts down on its overall average MPH. I came up with 34 MPH for the entire trip as the average.

If you weren't to count the customs dwell time, I suspect that number might go up to 36 or 37 mph.

Here are the next slowest:

Lake Shore Limited Boston Stub: 36 MPH

Cardinal (Culpeper-CHI only; essentially not counting high speed NEC and NS trackage): 37 MPH

NEC (New Haven-Springfield): 37 MPH

Texas Eagle (entire run CHI-LAX, including long SAS layover): 39 MPH

Coast Starlight: 39 MPH

Vermonter (St. Albans-NYP ONLY): 39 MPH

And, for those who are interested (and so my time wasn't completely a waste!), here's a complete list of everything I checked, from slowest to fastest; note that the speeds listed (especially for the Acela) are much lower than the top speeds the trains reach during their runs. These are AVERAGE speeds, including dwell time at station stops (except where noted):

Adirondack: 34 MPH

Lake Shore Limited Boston Stub: 36 MPH

Cardinal (Culpeper-CHI only; essentially not counting high speed NEC and NS trackage): 37 MPH

NEC (New Haven-Springfield): 37 MPH

Texas Eagle (entire run CHI-LAX, including long SAS layover): 39 MPH

Coast Starlight: 39 MPH

Vermonter (St. Albans-NYP ONLY): 39 MPH

Cascades (Vancouver-Seattle): 40 MPH

Cardinal: 40 MPH

Wolverine: 40 MPH

Blue Water: 40 MPH

Texas Eagle (CHI-San Antonio only): 40 MPH

NEC Overnight: 41 MPH

Sunset Limited (NOL-LAX): 41 MPH

Maple Leaf (counting customs layover): 42 MPH

Capitol Corridor (Oakland-Auburn): 42 MPH

Capitol Corridor (San Jose-Sacramento): 43 MPH

Capitol Limited: 43 MPH

Pere Marquette: 44 MPH

California Zephyr: 45 MPH

Ethan Allen Express: 45 MPH

NEC (Newport News-Richmond): 45 MPH

NEC (Washington-Newport News): 46 MPH

Pennsylvanian: 46 MPH

Silver Star: 46 MPH

Crescent: 47 MPH

City of New Orleans: 47 MPH

Texas Eagle (San Antonio to LAX only): 47 MPH

Hoosier State: 48 MPH

Downeaster: 48 MPH

Empire Builder (CHI-SEA): 48 MPH

Pacific Surfliner (San Diego-LAX): 48 MPH

Empire Builder (CHI-PDX): 49 MPH

Heartland Flyer: 49 MPH

Auto Train: 49 MPH

Vermonter (entire run): 49 MPH

Cascades (SEA-Eugene): 50 MPH

San Joaquins (Oakland-Bakersfield): 50 MPH

Silver Meteor: 50 MPH

Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI): 50 MPH

Ann Rutledge: 50 MPH

Empire Service (NYP-Niagara Falls): 51 MPH

Southwest Chief: 52 MPH

Average NEC Regional (BOS-NPN): 52 MPH

Carolinian: 54 MPH

San Joaquins (Sacramento-Bakersfield): 54 MPH

Palmetto: 56 MPH

Average NEC Regional (BOS-WAS): 58 MPH

Hiawatha: 58 MPH

Empire Service (NYP-ALB): 60 mph

Keystone: 63 MPH

Lincoln Service: 66 MPH

Average Acela (BOS-WAS): 69 MPH

-Rafi
 
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Is Vermonter the slowest amtrak train, mph ?
I hesitate to admit it, but your question drove me to actually open my timetable and pretty much make an audit of train miles traveled vs time taken to see what train, on average is the slowest in Amtrak's system, bumper to bumper, over the entire trip.

I didn't check every single train, but I did try to check every route.

The slowest train that I could find was the Adirondack, which runs NYP-Montreal. Now, realize I COUNTED the dwell time for US/Canadian customs in the average, so that cuts down on its overall average MPH. I came up with 34 MPH for the entire trip as the average.

If you weren't to count the customs dwell time, I suspect that number might go up to 36 or 37 mph.

Here are the next slowest:

Lake Shore Limited Boston Stub: 36 MPH

NEC (New Haven-Springfield): 37 MPH

Texas Eagle (entire run CHI-LAX, including long SAS layover): 39 MPH

Coast Starlight: 39 MPH

Vermonter (St. Albans-NYP ONLY): 39 MPH (note that from St. Albans to Springfield, however, it's averaging 49 MPH!)

And, for those who are interested (and so my time wasn't completely a waste!), here's a complete list of everything I checked, from slowest to fastest; note that the speeds listed (especially for the Acela) are much lower than the top speeds the trains reach during their runs. These are AVERAGE speeds, including dwell time at station stops (except where noted):

Adirondack: 34 MPH

Lake Shore Limited Boston Stub: 36 MPH

NEC (New Haven-Springfield): 37 MPH

Texas Eagle (entire run CHI-LAX, including long SAS layover): 39 MPH

Coast Starlight: 39 MPH

Vermonter (St. Albans-NYP ONLY): 39 MPH

Cascades (Vancouver-Seattle): 40 MPH

Cardinal: 40 MPH

Wolverine: 40 MPH

Blue Water: 40 MPH

Texas Eagle (CHI-San Antonio only): 40 MPH

NEC Overnight: 41 MPH

Sunset Limited (NOL-LAX): 41 MPH

Maple Leaf (counting customs layover): 42 MPH

Capitol Limited: 43 MPH

Pere Marquette: 44 MPH

California Zephyr: 45 MPH

Ethan Allen Express: 45 MPH

NEC (Newport News-Richmond): 45 MPH

NEC (Washington-Newport News): 46 MPH

Pennsylvanian: 46 MPH

Silver Star: 46 MPH

Crescent: 47 MPH

City of New Orleans: 47 MPH

Texas Eagle (San Antonio to LAX only): 47 MPH

Hoosier State: 48 MPH

Downeaster: 48 MPH

Empire Builder (CHI-SEA): 48 MPH

Pacific Surfliner (San Diego-LAX): 48 MPH

Empire Builder (CHI-PDX): 49 MPH

Heartland Flyer: 49 MPH

Auto Train: 49 MPH

Vermonter (entire run): 49 MPH

Cascades (SEA-Eugene): 50 MPH

Silver Meteor: 50 MPH

Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI): 50 MPH

Ann Rutledge: 50 MPH

Empire Service (NYP-Niagara Falls): 51 MPH

Southwest Chief: 52 MPH

Average NEC Regional (BOS-NPN): 52 MPH

Palmetto: 56 MPH

Average NEC Regional (BOS-WAS): 58 MPH

Empire Service (NYP-ALB): 60 mph

Keystone: 63 MPH

Lincoln Service: 66 MPH

Average Acela (BOS-WAS): 69 MPH

-Rafi
Rafi - I think you have way too much time on your hands, or is it a slow news day! :lol: :lol:
 
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"Is Vermonter the slowest amtrak train, mph ?"

I was on an Amtrak train that ended in Worcester, MA in about summer 1987 and I swear that we could have out-walked the train, it was so slow. I can still remember the type of weeds growing beside the track.
 
To look at a typical Regional by its various segments, some numbers for train 95:

BOS-New Haven, 156 miles, in 2:37: 60 MPH.

New Haven to NYP: 75 miles, 1:38: 46 MPH.

I'm pretending the 15 minute layover at NYP doesn't count against average speed.

NYP to Philadelphia: 91 miles, 1:22: 67 MPH.

I'm pretending the 3 minute layover at Philadelphia also doesn't count.

Philadelphia to Washington DC: 135 miles, 2:00: 68 MPH.
 
Is Vermonter the slowest amtrak train, mph ?
I hesitate to admit it, but your question drove me to actually open my timetable and pretty much make an audit of train miles traveled vs time taken to see what train, on average is the slowest in Amtrak's system, bumper to bumper, over the entire trip.

I didn't check every single train, but I did try to check every route.

The slowest train that I could find was the Adirondack, which runs NYP-Montreal. Now, realize I COUNTED the dwell time for US/Canadian customs in the average, so that cuts down on its overall average MPH. I came up with 34 MPH for the entire trip as the average.

If you weren't to count the customs dwell time, I suspect that number might go up to 36 or 37 mph.

Here are the next slowest:

Lake Shore Limited Boston Stub: 36 MPH

Cardinal (Culpeper-CHI only; essentially not counting high speed NEC and NS trackage): 37 MPH

NEC (New Haven-Springfield): 37 MPH

Texas Eagle (entire run CHI-LAX, including long SAS layover): 39 MPH

Coast Starlight: 39 MPH

Vermonter (St. Albans-NYP ONLY): 39 MPH (note that from St. Albans to Springfield, however, it's averaging 49 MPH!)

And, for those who are interested (and so my time wasn't completely a waste!), here's a complete list of everything I checked, from slowest to fastest; note that the speeds listed (especially for the Acela) are much lower than the top speeds the trains reach during their runs. These are AVERAGE speeds, including dwell time at station stops (except where noted):

Adirondack: 34 MPH

Lake Shore Limited Boston Stub: 36 MPH

Cardinal (Culpeper-CHI only; essentially not counting high speed NEC and NS trackage): 37 MPH

NEC (New Haven-Springfield): 37 MPH

Texas Eagle (entire run CHI-LAX, including long SAS layover): 39 MPH

Coast Starlight: 39 MPH

Vermonter (St. Albans-NYP ONLY): 39 MPH

Cascades (Vancouver-Seattle): 40 MPH

Cardinal: 40 MPH

Wolverine: 40 MPH

Blue Water: 40 MPH

Texas Eagle (CHI-San Antonio only): 40 MPH

NEC Overnight: 41 MPH

Sunset Limited (NOL-LAX): 41 MPH

Maple Leaf (counting customs layover): 42 MPH

Capitol Limited: 43 MPH

Pere Marquette: 44 MPH

California Zephyr: 45 MPH

Ethan Allen Express: 45 MPH

NEC (Newport News-Richmond): 45 MPH

NEC (Washington-Newport News): 46 MPH

Pennsylvanian: 46 MPH

Silver Star: 46 MPH

Crescent: 47 MPH

City of New Orleans: 47 MPH

Texas Eagle (San Antonio to LAX only): 47 MPH

Hoosier State: 48 MPH

Downeaster: 48 MPH

Empire Builder (CHI-SEA): 48 MPH

Pacific Surfliner (San Diego-LAX): 48 MPH

Empire Builder (CHI-PDX): 49 MPH

Heartland Flyer: 49 MPH

Auto Train: 49 MPH

Vermonter (entire run): 49 MPH

Cascades (SEA-Eugene): 50 MPH

Silver Meteor: 50 MPH

Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI): 50 MPH

Ann Rutledge: 50 MPH

Empire Service (NYP-Niagara Falls): 51 MPH

Southwest Chief: 52 MPH

Average NEC Regional (BOS-NPN): 52 MPH

Palmetto: 56 MPH

Average NEC Regional (BOS-WAS): 58 MPH

Hiawatha: 58 MPH

Empire Service (NYP-ALB): 60 mph

Keystone: 63 MPH

Lincoln Service: 66 MPH

Average Acela (BOS-WAS): 69 MPH

-Rafi
You forgot Carolinian. :p

Rafi - I think you have way too much time on your hands, or is it a slow news day! :lol: :lol:
I'll put it this way: My wife is getting ready for us to go see Sex and the City. I'm delaying. Desperately.

Rafi
:lol: I don't blame you.
 
Vermonter (St. Albans-NYP ONLY): 39 MPH (note that from St. Albans to Springfield, however, it's averaging 49 MPH!)
251 miles divided by 6.166 hours (6:10 minutes) seems to be giving me about 41 MPH, not 49 MPH.

Lake Shore Limited Boston Stub: 36 MPH
We can hope that various MBTA Commuter Rail improvements will improve the eastern portion of this route. Then again, Springfield is very very close to the midpoint in miles, and east of Springfield is about 2:15 and west of Springfield is about 3:15, and even if the MBTA managed to improve things to a point where an hour was shaved off that trip (which is pretty optomistic although I bet a 30-45 minute speed improvement would not be a great technical challenge given sufficient money to allow the LSL stub to run at 110 MPH much of the way), that still wouldn't change the overall feel of how slow that train is. And the MBTA currently doesn't seem to interested in running to Springfield at all, though I suspect given enough money, we could have commuter trains that would do Boston to Springfield in under an hour.
 
Is Vermonter the slowest amtrak train, mph ?
I hesitate to admit it, but your question drove me to actually open my timetable and pretty much make an audit of train miles traveled vs time taken to see what train, on average is the slowest in Amtrak's system, bumper to bumper, over the entire trip.
Well, at least for the Vermonter, there is the time table, and there is actual travel time.

There is a serious problem with the New England Central track. The train does lumbar along at a walking pace, and that is for every run.

Even Amtrak's own Route Performance admits it is only on-time 3.3% of the time. :D

There was a notice from Amtrak a year ago noting the problems with New England Central track, and for passengers to expect substantial delays, but is also claimed that it would be all fixed by 10/07. Obviously, it hasn't.
 
In short, any speeds higher than 79 mph requires additional equipment to run the train, such as (correct me if I'm wrong) cab signaling, positive train control, etc, and since the freight railroads can't haul anything faster than 70 mph, an improvement to allow higher passenger train speeds wouldn't really do much for their investment.
The Rail tracks Wikipedia article indicates that 80 MPH is the speed limit for freight on class 5 track.

(Freight trains operated at speeds that take advantage of the speeds allowed by class 6 and higher have to meet the weight restrictions for passenger trains, so I believe this means that heavy freight trains are limited to 80 MPH.)

I think what it boils down to is that the difference between 79 MPH and 80 MPH is almost irrelavant compared to the cost of installing cab signaling or automatic train stop along some track, and these technologies are not really worth investing in just for the benefit of passenger trains for track that sees one passenger train a day in each direction.
I thought the 70/75mph top for freight was because of the lower-quality bearings used, back when Amtrak ran express service they ran boxcars and road railers at 90mph. It would seem like raising freight speeds on intermodals and roadrailers would be a great marketing point for the railroads on time-sensitive freight such as UPS, and other express shipping customers.

Trucks would have nothing on a 90mph hot-shot intermodal. Not to mention the AutoTrain could finally exceed 70mph.
Another thing to consider is the fact that today's high-horsepower locomotives (SD70s, AC4400s, GEVOs, etc.) are limited to 70 mph. I'm not sure if this would mean something as simple as a different gearing replacement on the traction motors, but it's a cost that would have to be incurred. Wishful thinking, but wouldn't it be something if some of the big boys picked up some of those Amtrak P40s in storage, repainted them, and used them for high speed freights!

Not to mention the AutoTrain could finally exceed 70mph.
First I suspect that the new car carriers introduced about two year ago are cabable of going fast than 70 MPH.

However, doing so would be useless to the Autotrain. A faster runing time than what they have now would either mean having to drop dinner service since they'd need to leave later, or it would have them arriving too early at the other end, such that breakfast could not be served.

This is one train that won't benefit from a faster running time.
I don't think that's necessarily the case with AutoTrain. I think an hour's difference would actually help ridership on that route if it left 30 minutes later and arrived 30 minutes earlier, as it would become more drive-competitive. I also don't think leaving at 4:30 versus 4 would have an effect on the dinner serving either.
 
That's a cool list. I don't think I saw Capitol Corridor on it though, so:

Capitol Corridor (SAC-OKJ): 49 mph -- (90 miles/1.85 hrs)

Capitol Corridor (OKJ-SJC): 36 mph -- (43 miles/1.2 hrs)

Capitol Corridor (SAC-SJC): 42 mph -- (133 miles/3.1667 hrs)

I think I did the math right.
 
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