Sprinter

[Rob_C]

That's pretty amazing considering standing trackside filming the train going by is pretty harmless compared to say... taking a video from the CAB showing the startup procedure AND posting it all on youtube! And if I'm understanding correctly, the agency did that as a training video? lol

*shakes head* Sillyness.

 

[chuljin]

I keep meaning to reply to this thread, and keep forgetting.

I took a similar trip back in June, and was similarly unimpressed. They got way less than they deserved or (over)paid for.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Patrick, I'd like to see you write a review comparing Sprinter to the MBTA SL1 bus when you're here in 11 months.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Patrick, I'd like to see you write a review comparing Sprinter to the MBTA SL1 bus when you're here in 11 months.

I look forward to the opportunity. Joel, you mentioned in another thread about a bus putting up the poles. Boston has trolley buses?

At the L.A. Gathering me and chuljin were talking about trolley buses in San Francisco. He hadn't understood at first why trolley buses, but had come to understand that the torque of electric motors is very effective in a hilly environment. Vancouver, BC, also has trolley buses in a hilly environment, and Seattle - hilly as well - has dual-use buses. But Boston's pretty flat, isn't it? So what's the trolley bus rationale?

EDIT: As a railfain it may seem like apostasy, but I like trolley buses. Electrics!

 

[AlanB]

Patrick, I'd like to see you write a review comparing Sprinter to the MBTA SL1 bus when you're here in 11 months.

I look forward to the opportunity. Joel, you mentioned in another thread about a bus putting up the poles. Boston has trolley buses?

Yes, the Silver line buses can operate either on a regular diesel motor when on streets and highways or via trolly wire when they are running in the underground tunnels.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Patrick, I'd like to see you write a review comparing Sprinter to the MBTA SL1 bus when you're here in 11 months.

I look forward to the opportunity. Joel, you mentioned in another thread about a bus putting up the poles. Boston has trolley buses?

Yes, the Silver line buses can operate either on a regular diesel motor when on streets and highways or via trolly wire when they are running in the underground tunnels.

There are actually two types of buses the MBTA calls Silver Line buses. The Washington Street buses have no trolley wire capability. Only the South Station ones do. And in practice I think the outbound trolleybuses from South Station all continue beyond the trolley wire these days.

Then there are also the Harvard Square trolleybuses.

This Wikipedia article really needs some renaming or something, since it's really just about the Harvard Square trolleybuses; its title was more accurate for the pre-SL1/SL2/SL3 days.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

At the L.A. Gathering me and chuljin were talking about trolley buses in San Francisco. He hadn't understood at first why trolley buses, but had come to understand that the torque of electric motors is very effective in a hilly environment. Vancouver, BC, also has trolley buses in a hilly environment, and Seattle - hilly as well - has dual-use buses. But Boston's pretty flat, isn't it? So what's the trolley bus rationale?

Didn't you say something somewhere about Boston allegedly having the first subway system? Trolleybuses don't need nearly as much ventilation as diesel buses when they run through tunnels. That was the historical rationale for keeping the trolleybuses running after the streetcar tracks feeding what is now the Harvard Square busway went away, though these days the MBTA runs quite a few diesel buses through the Harvard Square busway, too.

The Silver Line tunnels are somewhat longer than the Harvard Square bus tunnels, and I expect ventilation adequate for diesel buses would require substantial investment.

EDIT: As a railfain it may seem like apostasy, but I like trolley buses. Electrics!

One of the Harvard Square trolleybus routes goes to Waverly Square, which is a stop on the MBTA Fitchburg Line. The Gathering could include an official or unofficial trip out on the Fitchburg Line and back on a trolleybus if I'm understanding that trolleybus route correctly. Though Wikipedia claims that the trolleybuses don't run on Sunday.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Whatever the rationale, I like trolley buses. Smooth, quick piclup, and virtually silent. If you can't have a streetcar, a trolley bus is the next best bet. Sounds like the Boston system, like Seattle, doesn't have pure electric buses.

A pure electric bus:

Vancouver, BC

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Whatever the rationale, I like trolley buses. Smooth, quick piclup, and virtually silent. If you can't have a streetcar, a trolley bus is the next best bet. Sounds like the Boston system, like Seattle, doesn't have pure electric buses.

But Cambridge / Belmont, a part of the greater Boston area, does have pure electric buses, though it's true that there are no pure electric buses within the city limits of Boston proper. And they aren't silent. The purely electric buses make a rather distinctive sound.

The MBTA route 77A bus goes up Massachusetts Avenue in Cambridge past Porter Square, and I sometimes see the trolleybuses there. (77A is apparently scheduled for the convenience of moving trolleybuses to the carhouse, and not for the convenience of the riding public, though if they happen to be moving a bus to the carhouse, they are generally happy to collect your fare and give you a ride.)

 

[AlanB]

And in practice I think the outbound trolleybuses from South Station all continue beyond the trolley wire these days.

On a weekend that is true, but not during the week. The SL3 line just runs from South Station to Silver Line Way and then loops right back to South Station.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Whatever the rationale, I like trolley buses. Smooth, quick piclup, and virtually silent. If you can't have a streetcar, a trolley bus is the next best bet. Sounds like the Boston system, like Seattle, doesn't have pure electric buses.

The purely electric buses make a rather distinctive sound.

Very true. Electric buses have a distinctive whine, kinda like Joel. But far less noisy than the diesel variety.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The SL3 line just runs from South Station to Silver Line Way and then loops right back to South Station.

Last I checked, the SL3 went to City Point, near Conley Terminal, which definitely involved some diesel running beyond trolley wire territory.

 

[AlanB]

The SL3 line just runs from South Station to Silver Line Way and then loops right back to South Station.

Last I checked, the SL3 went to City Point, near Conley Terminal, which definitely involved some diesel running beyond trolley wire territory.

Ok, maybe I'm wrong about what route it was, I'll admit that I didn't really pay much attention as I boarded the bus since I didn't care. But when I was up to Boston earlier this month for the OTOL fest, I was staying at the Renaissance Waterfront which is right opposite the Silver Line Way station. I boarded the first bus that came at South, and in fact an employee stuck his head in the door to tell me that I was on the wrong bus for the airport (guess he saw my suitcase) and I told him I wasn't going to the airport.

In any event, long story short, the bus that I was on looped right at the Silver Line Way station without ever going off the overhead power. It was scheduled to do this, and it was actually good that it did this since it was pouring rain out and by looping around they discharged the passengers on what would normally be the inbound platform instead of the outbound plat. That shortened my walk in the rain from the station to the hotel.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The SL3 line just runs from South Station to Silver Line Way and then loops right back to South Station.

Last I checked, the SL3 went to City Point, near Conley Terminal, which definitely involved some diesel running beyond trolley wire territory.

Ok, maybe I'm wrong about what route it was, I'll admit that I didn't really pay much attention as I boarded the bus since I didn't care. But when I was up to Boston earlier this month for the OTOL fest, I was staying at the Renaissance Waterfront which is right opposite the Silver Line Way station. I boarded the first bus that came at South, and in fact an employee stuck his head in the door to tell me that I was on the wrong bus for the airport (guess he saw my suitcase) and I told him I wasn't going to the airport.

In any event, long story short, the bus that I was on looped right at the Silver Line Way station without ever going off the overhead power. It was scheduled to do this, and it was actually good that it did this since it was pouring rain out and by looping around they discharged the passengers on what would normally be the inbound platform instead of the outbound plat. That shortened my walk in the rain from the station to the hotel.

Looks like that short turn is the SL WATER route

 

[transit54]

Not to get off topic, but how different is the Sprinter from the DMUs that were proposed for Vermont? I believe they were also a direct drive system also, which does not bode well. While I was hoping they were dead I recently saw something that said that VT is trying to get economic stimulus funding to purchase them (if anyone is interested in the specifics, I'll try to look it up, I think it was something that was forwarded to me at work). If they are basically beefed up Sprinters, that sounds like a very bad idea.

 

[AlanB]

Very different, as your mixing light rail vehicles with with commuter/long distance vehicles.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Not to get off topic, but how different is the Sprinter from the DMUs that were proposed for Vermont? I believe they were also a direct drive system also, which does not bode well. While I was hoping they were dead I recently saw something that said that VT is trying to get economic stimulus funding to purchase them (if anyone is interested in the specifics, I'll try to look it up, I think it was something that was forwarded to me at work). If they are basically beefed up Sprinters, that sounds like a very bad idea.

Going to news.google.com and telling it you are looking for

vermont amtrak

gives this article, which claims:

DMUs better than double fuel efficiency, provide a more comfortable ride and can run faster schedules.

The more comfortable ride and faster schedule points in that article don't seem terribly consistent with Patrick's trip report. If anything, I'd expect acceleration may be even worse with a CRC DMU, since they will probably be heavier than the Sprinter cars (though the CRC DMUs may have bigger engines and transmissions than Sprinter to make up for that for all I know). Then again, I think Vermont was also looking at running unpowered cars towed by DMUs, which is probably a very bad idea if you care about acceleration.

 

[Shotgun7]

Not to get off topic, but how different is the Sprinter from the DMUs that were proposed for Vermont? I believe they were also a direct drive system also, which does not bode well. While I was hoping they were dead I recently saw something that said that VT is trying to get economic stimulus funding to purchase them (if anyone is interested in the specifics, I'll try to look it up, I think it was something that was forwarded to me at work). If they are basically beefed up Sprinters, that sounds like a very bad idea.

Going to news.google.com and telling it you are looking for

vermont amtrak

gives this article, which claims:

DMUs better than double fuel efficiency, provide a more comfortable ride and can run faster schedules.

The more comfortable ride and faster schedule points in that article don't seem terribly consistent with Patrick's trip report. If anything, I'd expect acceleration may be even worse with a CRC DMU, since they will probably be heavier than the Sprinter cars (though the CRC DMUs may have bigger engines and transmissions than Sprinter to make up for that for all I know). Then again, I think Vermont was also looking at running unpowered cars towed by DMUs, which is probably a very bad idea if you care about acceleration.

The DMUs proposed for use on the Vermonter would probably be very similar, if not the same as the bi-level DMUs being used by Tri-Rail here in S Florida. They're actually surprisingly comfortable inside and offer an extremely smooth ride, contrary to what you would think, looking at the cars' massive height. In fact, I'd venture to say that the upper level seating is as comfortable, if not more so, than an Amfleet I coach. In the center car (the "trailer"), the handicapped bathroom easily doubles the size and cleanliness of that in any Amtrak railcar. The cars themselves are very ADA compliant (assuming you have a center "trailer" car) and rival the ride quality of most Amtrak corridor equipment.

But I still think CRC DMUs are an outrageous and poorly thought out solution for updating the Vermonter... The description of the Sprinter's speed and acceleration especially is eerily familiar to what I've experienced on Tri-Rail. Even when there is NO freight interference, these trains simply can't keep to the time schedule because they don't accelerate fast enought between stations. Their acceleration is similar to that of a bus and seem to take up to three times as long to get up to speed as would an F40PH pulling three coaches. This is why Tri-Rail oftentimes operates at least one of their two sets with a standard diesel engine pulling just the trailer and one power car. They won't even bother running them at all on weekends. And I don't have any proof of this, but word is that they've been a terrible headache to maintain. Most of the time, you can see one or both trainsets sitting in the Hialeah shops.

If Vermont ever gets serious about buying Amtrak some new toys to boost their economy, they ought to wise up and research how their potential equipment will perform instead of picking out the newest, biggest, and shiniest toy on the shelf.

 

[AlanB]

The DMUs proposed for use on the Vermonter would probably be very similar, if not the same as the bi-level DMUs being used by Tri-Rail here in S Florida. They're actually surprisingly comfortable inside and offer an extremely smooth ride, contrary to what you would think, looking at the cars' massive height. In fact, I'd venture to say that the upper level seating is as comfortable, if not more so, than an Amfleet I coach. In the center car (the "trailer"), the handicapped bathroom easily doubles the size and cleanliness of that in any Amtrak railcar. The cars themselves are very ADA compliant (assuming you have a center "trailer" car) and rival the ride quality of most Amtrak corridor equipment.
But I still think CRC DMUs are an outrageous and poorly thought out solution for updating the Vermonter... The description of the Sprinter's speed and acceleration especially is eerily familiar to what I've experienced on Tri-Rail. Even when there is NO freight interference, these trains simply can't keep to the time schedule because they don't accelerate fast enought between stations. Their acceleration is similar to that of a bus and seem to take up to three times as long to get up to speed as would an F40PH pulling three coaches. This is why Tri-Rail oftentimes operates at least one of their two sets with a standard diesel engine pulling just the trailer and one power car. They won't even bother running them at all on weekends. And I don't have any proof of this, but word is that they've been a terrible headache to maintain. Most of the time, you can see one or both trainsets sitting in the Hialeah shops.

If Vermont ever gets serious about buying Amtrak some new toys to boost their economy, they ought to wise up and research how their potential equipment will perform instead of picking out the newest, biggest, and shiniest toy on the shelf.

The DMU's proposed for Vermont would be just like the ones in use in Florida on Tri-Rail. The only possible difference would have been, was VT thinking of buying the single level version or the double decker version like Florida brought.

However since CRC is basically bankrupt, to the point where the Oregon's Tri-Met had to basically take over the company and kick out it's owner Tom Rader several months ago just to complete the work on the four cars that they had ordered, it's unlikely that the company will survive beyond the completion of that project.

Therefore even if Vermont was to reconsider their decision not to buy the DMU's, it's probably academic now.

By the way, Vermont didn't pick CRC on their own. They were guided and prodded by Amtrak in that direction, after Amtrak failed to obtain the funding under David Gunn to buy DMU's for the Springfield corridor. Thank goodness Amtrak didn't get that funding!

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

In fact, I'd venture to say that the upper level seating is as comfortable, if not more so, than an Amfleet I coach. In the center car (the "trailer"), the handicapped bathroom easily doubles the size and cleanliness of that in any Amtrak railcar.

I suspect the cleanliness has more to do with how well the railroad is cleaning it, and how many passengers are using it (due to the length of the typical Amtrak trip, Amtrak trains really need restrooms, whereas I didn't realize until I was reading through the MBTA Blue Book that the MBTA Commuter Rail system even has cars with restrooms).