St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago Corridor service H2 2024

[pennyk]

From July 7, 2024 forward, please post comments discussing St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service here. For previous posts regarding St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service, please refer to this thread, which is currently locked:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/st-paul-milwaukee-chicago-tcmc-second-daily-service.80803/

 

[moselman66]

Daily June ridership on the Borealis saw a slight uptick from the (partial month) May, averaging 618 in June versus 604 the prior month.

https://wisarp.wordpress.com/

With May being only the maiden 11 trips it's possible the average load was boosted by enthusiests seeking to ride in those first few days. That June was even a bit fuller shows the May demand wasn't a fluke.

 

[thefirewarde]

I believe both directions are now averaging (slightly) more than one butt per seat. I don't believe trains are regularly sold out MWK-CHI, intermediate ridership has to be pretty strong!

 

[chadamfleetrailfan]

It looks like the Borealis now has a phase 7 charger on it (at least on one of the trainsets). The P42 with the dash 8 livery is on the other end of this.

Below is 1340 coming into CUS on 7/23/24.



It's cool to see a charger on it.

 

[moselman66]

Bad luck today for Borealis, though obviously worse for the bicyclist it struck in Oconomowoc.

Right now westbound Borealis and eastbound Empire Builder are stopped indefinitely, and the opposite counterpart of each train will stack up behind if it's not cleared in a couple of hours.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/oconomowoc-officials-respond-to-amtrak-train-vs-bicycle-crash

 

[thefirewarde]

From WisARP:

July 2024 Borealis Ridership
On August 20, 2024, The Wisconsin Department of Transportation released July 2024 Borealis ridership in an email to WisARP.

TrainJune Daily average
1333 (Westbd) 11,031 356
1340 (Eastbd) 10,236 330

[Their table says June but these appear to be July numbers]

Note from WisDOT: Some trip segments (e.g., Milwaukee to St. Paul) have been selling out on Fridays and Sundays in July.
While the original source of these numbers is Amtrak (via WisDOT), the numbers may be subject to revision.
More passengers on 1333 than 1340 is expected simply due to the schedule.
Numbers include the entire route, all three states.

https://wisarp.wordpress.com/2024/08/21/july-2024-borealis-ridership/

Continued ridership growth is a positive sign - what does it take to get an additional coach or coach/business car in the mix?

 

[user535733]

Continued ridership growth is a positive sign - what does it take to get an additional coach or coach/business car in the mix?

WisARP asked this question to the WisDOT passenger rail manager in April 2024.

The WisDOT perspective --one stakeholder among several-- was that WisDOT monitors daily ridership, and can get Amtrak to add coaches when high-load-factor patterns emerge. They exercised that muscle on Hiawatha Service twice recently during Covid recovery.

However, WisDOT is not resourced to plan (micromanage) daily consist sizes. All Amtrak Midwest routes are busy on Fridays and Sundays, occasional sellouts during the high season are expected.

WisDOT wasn't going to speak for other stakeholders, so did not address equipment availability nor other constraints.

 

[WWW]

From WisARP:

July 2024 Borealis Ridership
On August 20, 2024, The Wisconsin Department of Transportation released July 2024 Borealis ridership in an email to WisARP.

TrainJune Daily average
1333 (Westbd) 11,031 356
1340 (Eastbd) 10,236 330

[Their table says June but these appear to be July numbers]

Note from WisDOT: Some trip segments (e.g., Milwaukee to St. Paul) have been selling out on Fridays and Sundays in July.
While the original source of these numbers is Amtrak (via WisDOT), the numbers may be subject to revision.
More passengers on 1333 than 1340 is expected simply due to the schedule.
Numbers include the entire route, all three states.

https://wisarp.wordpress.com/2024/08/21/july-2024-borealis-ridership/

Continued ridership growth is a positive sign - what does it take to get an additional coach or coach/business car in the mix?

what does it take to get an additional coach or coach/business car in the mix?
Not all that easy to just add a coach (and certainly not a business car - extreme price/service difference)
Adding that extra coach car would be easy if the train was FULL for its entire trip (consistently).

Only need -2- cars (1 per train) resurrected from the Beech Grove bone yard

But outside of the MKE-CHI segment doubt that either Borealis will be a full capacity.

Need to have emphasis on a secondary route (Eau Claire & Madison) which may dilute the Borealis route.
And then the MSP Duluth service and Green Bay service north of Milwaukee.

Additional side note - - - the Borealis could be extended to St. Cloud

 

[thefirewarde]

I definitely wouldn't have picked Milwaukee -St Paul to be the segment that sold out.

Edited for clarity.

 

[OmahaRoad]

I definitely didn't expect Milwaukee -St Paul to be the example they picked for a sold out segment.

They didn't really "pick" it, per se--it is the longest and most significant segment (maybe the only? this is unclear) that has sold out so far, so is the best example to show how the Borealis is doing. The other reason would be that Milwaukee to St. Paul selling out is a VERY important way to show that the Borealis has robust ridership beyond the CHI - MKE Hiawatha segment of the route.

There's been skepticism in some circles that much of the Borealis' ridership comes from beyond the Hiawatha segment, so this helps to fight that narrative (i.e., "The ridership is actually terrible beyond MKE and there's no point in running the Borealis," etc.)

 

[user535733]

I definitely didn't expect Milwaukee -St Paul to be the example they picked for a sold out segment.

That's --quite literally-- all the information released by WisDOT. No breakdown by segment. No "picking". Just the raw numbers for each direction and the note about Fri/Sun sellouts.

Ridership is generally in line with the projections made years ago during during the studies. It's not tremendously higher. The projections turned out to be accurate so far. It's working the way it was planned to work.

 

[thefirewarde]

There aren't tremendously more seats to sell. To beat the 124,000 riders projection for 2024 (20,666 2/3 passengers per month, 340.6 per train) they have to have more passengers than they have seats per trip (selling some seats on separate segments). They are doing that, but to do substantially better probably takes another car.

 

[WWW]

Adding a Business/Cafe car is not going to work well i.e. 15-18 business seats versus 50 + coach

Adding additional cars may present boarding problems with multiple stop(s) at stations with short platforms which
also may require additional crew

 

[thefirewarde]

I don't think a Business/Cafe is a good addition, but a business/coach might make sense depending on availability and whether the business or coach seats are selling out more often. I think a fifth all-coach car is more likely.

The Hiawatha used to run six car consists, I don't think that's long enough to require double spotting. That's even more true when conductors are only opening a couple doors at intermediate stops. Yes, there are some platforms that aren't long enough for an entire EB and a substantially longer Borealis could get into minor trouble.

 

[railiner]

Adding additional coaches doesn’t have to mean additional stops at short platforms, if they would load thru passengers and “shorts” in separate cars…the arrangement could be determined by the day’s manifest to allocate what is necessary. Then only the “shorts” cars would need to platform at intermediate stops…

 

[OmahaRoad]

There aren't tremendously more seats to sell. To beat the 124,000 riders projection for 2024 (20,666 2/3 passengers per month, 340.6 per train) they have to have more passengers than they have seats per trip (selling some seats on separate segments). They are doing that, but to do substantially better probably takes another car.

I think the projections were all for the first *full* Amtrak fiscal year of operations, not by calendar year, as in the partial calendar year the Borealis will have in 2024. Although we'll be able to extrapolate what a full year of ridership may look like based on late May through September of 2024, it will be most useful to see what happens in the next full fiscal year.

Unless you were talking about extrapolating and such, or I am misunderstanding your post.

 

[toddinde]

The Milwaukee Road trains had good ridership up to Amtrak. This area has many substantial communities with no other public transportation options, or limited options. I lived in Baraboo for many years and used the Empire Builder to go to Milwaukee and Chicago. The Wisconsin Dells are frequently touted as the number one tourist destination in the upper Midwest. There are many major universities on the route. This route was always going to be a major success. Now add an Eau Claire line, a Green Bay line, and a Wausau/Rhinelander line, and watch ridership explode. The market penetration that can be achieved in small towns is incredible. It’s not impossible for towns of 10,000 to board 5,000 passengers a year. Catchment areas for stations encompass many communities. Make service convenient and price it right, and the sky is the limit.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

The Milwaukee Road trains had good ridership up to Amtrak. This area has many substantial communities with no other public transportation options, or limited options. I lived in Baraboo for many years and used the Empire Builder to go to Milwaukee and Chicago. The Wisconsin Dells are frequently touted as the number one tourist destination in the upper Midwest. There are many major universities on the route. This route was always going to be a major success. Now add an Eau Claire line, a Green Bay line, and a Wausau/Rhinelander line, and watch ridership explode. The market penetration that can be achieved in small towns is incredible. It’s not impossible for towns of 10,000 to board 5,000 passengers a year. Catchment areas for stations encompass many communities. Make service convenient and price it right, and the sky is the limit.

What's the ridership like on the Amtrak bus routes in Wisconsin? They are fairly extensive. I think the Green Bay Corridor - if it happens - will be first since there was money granted for the corridor study.

 

[user535733]

I think the Green Bay Corridor - if it happens - will be first since there was money granted for the corridor study.

WisDOT is working all four of its Corridor ID programs simultaneously, AND has made very clear that their Corridor ID priority is more Hiawatha slots (trips) between Chicago and Milwaukee.

Other Step-1-funded Corridor ID programs (Green Bay, Madison-Eau Claire, second Borealis) are envisioned to need those slots.

 

[NewRails]

The Milwaukee Road trains had good ridership up to Amtrak. This area has many substantial communities with no other public transportation options, or limited options. I lived in Baraboo for many years and used the Empire Builder to go to Milwaukee and Chicago. The Wisconsin Dells are frequently touted as the number one tourist destination in the upper Midwest. There are many major universities on the route. This route was always going to be a major success. Now add an Eau Claire line, a Green Bay line, and a Wausau/Rhinelander line, and watch ridership explode. The market penetration that can be achieved in small towns is incredible. It’s not impossible for towns of 10,000 to board 5,000 passengers a year. Catchment areas for stations encompass many communities. Make service convenient and price it right, and the sky is the limit.

Hear, hear! Now we are talking...Wisconsin has the greatest number of Corridor Identification Program (CID) routes of any state! If you look closely at what is in Phase 1 WisDOT is building on the success of Borealis.

 

[railiner]

The Milwaukee Road trains had good ridership up to Amtrak. This area has many substantial communities with no other public transportation options, or limited options. I lived in Baraboo for many years and used the Empire Builder to go to Milwaukee and Chicago

Just to clarify, the pre-Amtrak Empire Builder operated thru Wisconsin on the Burlington Route…

 

[OmahaRoad]

Hear, hear! Now we are talking...Wisconsin has the greatest number of Corridor Identification Program (CID) routes of any state! If you look closely at what is in Phase 1 WisDOT is building on the success of Borealis.

A friendly correction is that North Carolina has an astounding *seven!* total CID routes, so I believe they have the most of any state! But WI is not far behind Grateful for the work that WisDOT is doing (compared to MnDOT, cough), and other DOTs like NCDOT!

 

[toddinde]

Just to clarify, the pre-Amtrak Empire Builder operated thru Wisconsin on the Burlington Route…

That is true. I’m not that old. I rode Amtrak’s Empire Builder from 1994 to 2017 when I lived there, but I did ride some of the last Milwaukee Road trains as a small child and the early Amtrak Empire Builder several times. But it’s good to note that at least four railroads operated Chicago - Twin Cities service into the 1960’s illustrating the strong market for service. The Milwaukee, the Burlington, the North Western and the Soo Line all offered service into the early ‘60’s.

 

[Willbridge]

That is true. I’m not that old. I rode Amtrak’s Empire Builder from 1994 to 2017 when I lived there, but I did ride some of the last Milwaukee Road trains as a small child and the early Amtrak Empire Builder several times. But it’s good to note that at least four railroads operated Chicago - Twin Cities service into the 1960’s illustrating the strong market for service. The Milwaukee, the Burlington, the North Western and the Soo Line all offered service into the early ‘60’s.

In 1967, when I made my big trip "back East" from Portland to Chicago and St. Louis, I got off the North Coast Limited in Minneapolis and caught the Morning Zephyr to Chicago. In the annual Speed Survey, it was the fastest train in the U.S. When we hit the triple-digit segment, the ice water tinkled slightly in my glass.

Since 1971, I've wondered about a split service, with a real corridor schedule (3 or more trains each way) on the Hiawatha route and long-distance trains on the Zephyr route for MSP <> CHI.

 

[WWW]

Just to clarify, the pre-Amtrak Empire Builder operated thru Wisconsin on the Burlington Route…

The Empire Builder was a Great Northern train -
Great Northern merged/bought/consolidated with the Burlington folks - - -

Interesting would be an image of the actual routes of the competing 4 railroads -
The current EB operates from MSP to CHI on mostly CP (old Milwaukee - Soo?) tracks
Minnesota side of the Mississippi river
The Burlington (GN) route would have been on the Wisconsin side ?
Chicago/Northwestern - Hudson WI - Eau Claire Black River Falls Madison (present UP trackage ?
Northern Pacific ?

Interesting enough how some of these trains could travel at triple digit speeds -
BUT THEN THERE WAS NO FREIGHT INTERFERENCE and heavy rail loads tearing the firmament
out from under the railroad bed were nonexistent !