St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[west point]

No NLX connections at MSP - St.Paul? Here is another example of only considering Duluth passengers as needing a desired connection. What about all the possible intermediate stations wanting to make a connection? Short sighted IMO.

 

[user 29398]

No NLX connections at MSP - St.Paul? Here is another example of only considering Duluth passengers as needing a desired connection. What about all the possible intermediate stations wanting to make a connection? Short sighted IMO.

I'm baffled by this too - what's the downside of continuing on to St. Paul after the stop in Minneapolis? It adds, what, 3% to the distance of the trip, so presumably a similar amount in fuel and wear and tear? Nobody getting on at Target Field would notice the change, and stopping in Minneapolis first probably wouldn't be a dealbreaker for anyone trying to transfer at St. Paul. Seems like a fairly small price to pay for that connection to the wider Amtrak network, and I'd imagine servicing trains is much easier at a larger facility with existing Amtrak service.

 

[OmahaRoad]

I'm baffled by this too - what's the downside of continuing on to St. Paul after the stop in Minneapolis? It adds, what, 3% to the distance of the trip, so presumably a similar amount in fuel and wear and tear? Nobody getting on at Target Field would notice the change, and stopping in Minneapolis first probably wouldn't be a dealbreaker for anyone trying to transfer at St. Paul. Seems like a fairly small price to pay for that connection to the wider Amtrak network, and I'd imagine servicing trains is much easier at a larger facility with existing Amtrak service.

To keep this thread about the TCMC, and not deviate too much the NLX, which has a separate thread, I'll take the converse of your question: Extending the TCMC to Minneapolis Target Field Station (TFS) from St. Paul Union Depot (SPUD). It's not anything about distance or wear and tear--it's primarily about time, and a little about the platforms at TFS. Your profile says you are from Atlanta; I will not assume you are or are not familiar with MSP and what it takes to get between St. Paul Union Depot.

In short, it's an annoyingly long (a minimum of ~35-40 minutes, possibly 45+) train movement that likely would require backing in/out, since TFS sits well off the main line the Empire Builder uses today. Making that trip shorter would take significant $$, as I understand. Also, the platforms at TFS will need upgrading for the NLX to accommodate those trains, and so, would need upgrading before the TCMC could stop there. Anyway, the long travel time between SPUD and TFS would be an issue in the Minnesota context, because (like it or not) passenger rail is misunderstood at best and hated by many, so "end to end" travel time and perception of time is absolutely critical. I've stated this previously, but the estimated time TFS - Duluth would be competitive with driving, but not at all starting from SPUD. On the TCMC side, starting at TFS would inflate the travel time to Chicago, thus making it "look worse" to politicians and riders.

At any rate: MnDOT submitted, as part of Corridor ID, extending the TCMC corridor from SPUD to TFS. Unfortunately, this relatively minor (in the scope of the other submissions) study wasn't funded this time around. However, rest assured that planners in MN are well aware of the desire for an at-station connection between these two services. However, given that the NLX didn't win the federal matching capital funding this year, and the amount of work to be done, it's many years off--probably 5 at absolute best, if not 6-7 years. 4 would be a miracle.

Let's focus on the TCMC itself actually starting in 2024 (knock on wood) and then we'll still have a number of years before the NLX would be even close to running.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

To keep this thread about the TCMC, and not deviate too much the NLX, which has a separate thread, I'll take the converse of your question: Extending the TCMC to Minneapolis Target Field Station (TFS) from St. Paul Union Depot (SPUD). It's not anything about distance or wear and tear--it's primarily about time, and a little about the platforms at TFS. Your profile says you are from Atlanta; I will not assume you are or are not familiar with MSP and what it takes to get between St. Paul Union Depot.

In short, it's an annoyingly long (a minimum of ~35-40 minutes, possibly 45+) train movement that likely would require backing in/out, since TFS sits well off the main line the Empire Builder uses today. Making that trip shorter would take significant $$, as I understand. Also, the platforms at TFS will need upgrading for the NLX to accommodate those trains, and so, would need upgrading before the TCMC could stop there. Anyway, the long travel time between SPUD and TFS would be an issue in the Minnesota context, because (like it or not) passenger rail is misunderstood at best and hated by many, so "end to end" travel time and perception of time is absolutely critical. I've stated this previously, but the estimated time TFS - Duluth would be competitive with driving, but not at all starting from SPUD. On the TCMC side, starting at TFS would inflate the travel time to Chicago, thus making it "look worse" to politicians and riders.

At any rate: MnDOT submitted, as part of Corridor ID, extending the TCMC corridor from SPUD to TFS. Unfortunately, this relatively minor (in the scope of the other submissions) study wasn't funded this time around. However, rest assured that planners in MN are well aware of the desire for an at-station connection between these two services. However, given that the NLX didn't win the federal matching capital funding this year, and the amount of work to be done, it's many years off--probably 5 at absolute best, if not 6-7 years. 4 would be a miracle.

Let's focus on the TCMC itself actually starting in 2024 (knock on wood) and then we'll still have a number of years before the NLX would be even close to running.

And there's robust transit by bus and light rail from SPUD and TFS to each other and all the other parts of the Twin Cities.

 

[OmahaRoad]

And there's robust transit by bus and light rail from SPUD and TFS to each other and all the other parts of the Twin Cities.

Exactly! I do understand why people have concerns about lacking a "direct connection," but there's truly a lot of options available.

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: About a dozen posts pertaining to discussion of local transit plans options and proposals in the Twin Cities area have been moved to their own new thread under the "Commuter Rail and Rail Transit Forum". They can be found at:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/thread...l-and-suburban-rail-service-discussion.86598/
Please limit discussion in this thread to TCMC, its planning and introduction related activities.

Thank you for you understanding cooperation and participation.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Hi all! I said I'd post any legitimate updates on the potential start date/month for the TCMC that I see. All governemnt and local advocacy sources have been sadly silent on this for awhile now, but thanks to the RPA (as usual), we have a little bit of intel; see picture below. Basically, the start of service is (as it has been since last fall) still rumored to be "coming soon" and "in the next couple of months. Sad, if true, that holdups involving the SPUD lease agreement are what's the issue. I had read before that they might be storing equipment at the old MIdway station area but I'd guess that proved to be too complicated to do at least at the start of service, especially since the infrastructure there hasn't exactly been maintained for awhile (though how much is needed to just store equipment beyond literal tracks?)
View attachment 35826

 

[BlackDiamond]

Hi all! I said I'd post any legitimate updates on the potential start date/month for the TCMC that I see. All governemnt and local advocacy sources have been sadly silent on this for awhile now, but thanks to the RPA (as usual), we have a little bit of intel; see picture below. Basically, the start of service is (as it has been since last fall) still rumored to be "coming soon" and "in the next couple of months. Sad, if true, that holdups involving the SPUD lease agreement are what's the issue. I had read before that they might be storing equipment at the old MIdway station area but I'd guess that proved to be too complicated to do at least at the start of service, especially since the infrastructure there hasn't exactly been maintained for awhile (though how much is needed to just store equipment beyond literal tracks?)
View attachment 35826

The attachment doesn't seem to be available anymore.

 

[OmahaRoad]

The attachment doesn't seem to be available anymore.

Oh, darn! I guess I didn't add the picture properly--still new to how adding pictures to a post works here. All it was is a screengrab of a Instagram/Facebook 'Reel' from the RPA with the question of (paraphrasing) "When will the TCMC start?" And the answer being (paraphrasing) "It's rumored to be coming soon, maybe in the next couple of months. Have heard that equipment storage issues in relation to Amtrak's lease at SPUD may be what's holding things up."

 

[WWW]

The attachment (oops in the great void) where did you encounter read about it ?
Newspaper ?
Forum ?
Magazine article ?

As with a whole bunch of us railroad fans - waiting for the snails pace to be lubricated with a
liberal dose of WD-40 and get this on track and running ! ! ! ! !

 

[Amtrak25]

Just reading about the Twin Cities (not from there), at SPUD:
1) They can't stash a corridor train there overnight from Chicago, Duluth, or Fargo.
2) They can't cut/add coaches and PV's on passing Empire Builders given loss of use of Minnesota Transfer switcher engine at Midway.

Shouldn't these things have been nailed down in the depot's design and into its lease before it was opened ?

 

[OmahaRoad]

The attachment (oops in the great void) where did you encounter read about it ?
Newspaper ?
Forum ?
Magazine article ?

As with a whole bunch of us railroad fans - waiting for the snails pace to be lubricated with a
liberal dose of WD-40 and get this on track and running ! ! ! ! !

As I mentioned briefly above, it was a screengrab of a 'story' or 'Reel' from the official Rail Passengers Association's Facebook/Instagram account. One of their staff (I think Joseph Aiello) was en route to Kansas City for the most recent FRA long-distance study meeting and did what is called an "Ask Me Anything" session through the RPA's account. He was answering various Amtrak-related questions and someone asked about the status of the TCMC, and he answered with what I posted above.

I share your hope that the TCMC will be up and running soon! It's definitely been moving at a snail's pace for awhile now. My best guess (and optimistic hope) is that they will be announcing the start date within the next month, and then the service will begin in later April or May. Would make sense from an "avoid having potential late winter weather issues" in the Upper Midwest (March snowstorms, etc.) mess with the start of service--though with the lack of a winter in MN/WI/IL this year, that shouldn't be a problem!

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Oh, darn! I guess I didn't add the picture properly--still new to how adding pictures to a post works here. All it was is a screengrab of a Instagram/Facebook 'Reel' from the RPA with the question of (paraphrasing) "When will the TCMC start?" And the answer being (paraphrasing) "It's rumored to be coming soon, maybe in the next couple of months. Have heard that equipment storage issues in relation to Amtrak's lease at SPUD may be what's holding things up."

If it was their story reel it may already be gone since they only last a short time on Instagram to start with.

 

[OmahaRoad]

If it was their story reel it may already be gone since they only last a short time on Instagram to start with.

Correct, I took a screenshot of it but it refused to upload here for me. If I have time later, I will try to post it again for posterity's sake. If anyone has tips for how to include pictures in one of these posts, that would be helpful! Despite being a younger person some of the user interface aspects of the platform AU uses confuse me!

 

[Mr.Technician]

If anyone has tips for how to include pictures in one of these posts, that would be helpful!

You should be able to include an image by clicking the "insert image" button at the top of the text editor.

 

[TransitTyrant]

A Twitter user involved in Minnesota transit advocacy spoke with Erik Rudeen of MNDOT, the train is expected to start this spring. The dates haven’t been released.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Well, glad to hear that someone has heard about the same timeline/info from MnDOT as the RPA said in the recent AMA. As in, "the next couple of months" would be the same as "this spring." I wish that DOTs, Amtrak, and partners would put out more regular updates on projects like this--instead, we end up with a months-long rumor mill and hearsay batted back and forth while we wait for the mythical official announcement

The last I heard from the Great River Rail Commission, MnDOT has said that an official announcement about the start date of service will take place a month before the start of service. Hence why I am hoping for the "official announcement" in the coming month or so, or else the "this spring" timeline will end up being another false alarm/whoopise.

Keep in mind that some of the partners on this project jumped the gun and promised last September, then last fall/early winter, and then Amtrak/others said "early 2024" in various documents, and they then said "Quarter 1 2024," which is very unlikely to happen at this point, and now "spring 2024." I now understand the relative cynicism of those who basically won't believe this service is happening until the first train is literally running!

 

[OmahaRoad]

Here I am with what is (probably) more official info than my last post:
1. According to All Aboard MN, citing a WisDOT presentation at the Wisconsin Association of Railroad Passengers' early February 2024 meeting, this service will be named the Borealis (not the Great River, as was previously stated/shared)!
2. Operating agreements may be *finally* nearing completion, apparently. Of course, this remains to be seen, but it bodes pretty well for this service at least starting in the late spring, knock on wood. Will be pretty surprised & pleased if it starts before May at this point.
3. An "Amtrak contact" (classic to have the details trickling out like this, ha) has apparently told AAMN that the Borealis will use refurbished Horizon cars. This does seem likely to be true as it dovetails with other bits and pieces of info I've heard trickling out over the past year, plus what we know about railcar availability out of Chicago.

Here is the link to AAMN's Quarter 1 2024 newsletter; scroll down to number 3 to see the info they provided: https://www.allaboardminnesota.org/about/news/blog/

I couldn't immediately locate the presentation that AAMN is citing, but I assume it may be on YouTube if someone wants to dig.

 

[Amtrak25]

Horizon cars are fine. The CHI-MSP-DUL "North Star" used Amfleet.

Could the 3 California Horizon dinette cars, idle since 2020 that Amtrak supposedly wants back for some reason, be used for this ?

Aurora Broealis: "A display of colored lights in the sky, also called northern lights, caused by the interaction of particles from the sun with the upper atmosphere near the North Pole."

 

[TransitTyrant]

Here I am with what is (probably) more official info than my last post:
1. According to All Aboard MN, citing a WisDOT presentation at the Wisconsin Association of Railroad Passengers' early February 2024 meeting, this service will be named the Borealis (not the Great River, as was previously stated/shared)!
2. Operating agreements may be *finally* nearing completion, apparently. Of course, this remains to be seen, but it bodes pretty well for this service at least starting in the late spring, knock on wood. Will be pretty surprised & pleased if it starts before May at this point.
3. An "Amtrak contact" (classic to have the details trickling out like this, ha) has apparently told AAMN that the Borealis will use refurbished Horizon cars. This does seem likely to be true as it dovetails with other bits and pieces of info I've heard trickling out over the past year, plus what we know about railcar availability out of Chicago.

Here is the link to AAMN's Quarter 1 2024 newsletter; scroll down to number 3 to see the info they provided: https://www.allaboardminnesota.org/about/news/blog/

I couldn't immediately locate the presentation that AAMN is citing, but I assume it may be on YouTube if someone wants to dig.

The Great River Rail Commission was throwing a fit over Amtrak trying to copyrighting the name “Great River” so that’s probably why the name was changed.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Horizon cars are fine. The CHI-MSP-DUL "North Star" used Amfleet.

Could the 3 California Horizon dinette cars, idle since 2020 that Amtrak supposedly wants back for some reason, be used for this ?

Aurora Broealis: "A display of colored lights in the sky, also called northern lights, caused by the interaction of particles from the sun with the upper atmosphere near the North Pole."

Good question about the California dinette cars. No idea but it would be really nice for the service. Somehow doubt they'll be used for this service, though.

If the Borealis name is indeed final, when this service and the (knock on wood) Northern Lights Express between Mpls - Duluth are running, there will be three routes in MN named for either stars or northern atmospheric phenomena (With the third, of course, being the Northstar commuter rail line from Mpls to Big Lake, MN).

The Great River Rail Commission was throwing a fit over Amtrak trying to copyrighting the name “Great River” so that’s probably why the name was changed.

Yes, I heard that as well! Between that issue with the GRRC (still don't understand their unhappiness) and (apparently) MnDOT and WisDOT flat-out not liking the name, I'm not shocked at the change!

 

[John Santos]

Good question about the California dinette cars. No idea but it would be really nice for the service. Somehow doubt they'll be used for this service, though.

If the Borealis name is indeed final, when this service and the (knock on wood) Northern Lights Express between Mpls - Duluth are running, there will be three routes in MN named for either stars or northern atmospheric phenomena (With the third, of course, being the Northstar commuter rail line from Mpls to Big Lake, MN).

If you Google "borealis", you get, almost exclusively, hits on "aurora borealis", but "borealis' does not mean the Northern Lights. "Borealis" is an adjective meaning "northern". There also exist the "Borealis Basin", a very large, very ancient depression or crater on Mars which includes its north polar region, and the "boreal forest" (aka taiga), the large cold forest covering much of Canada, Alaska, northern Europe and Russia.

Aurora was the Greek goddess of the dawn, and borealis is Greek for northern, so the aurora borealis is the Northern Sky Glow. The ancient Greeks did not know about charged particles, the solar wind, or the Earth's magnetic field. The sky in the east glows before sunrise, and they thought the aurora borealis was a variation of the same phenomenon.

So technically, a train called the "Borealis" is not named for either stars or an atmospheric phenomenon, but just the fact that it goes north.

A trip that long definitely requires and deserves decent meal service.

 

[Amtrak25]

Since Amtrak's route to St Paul doesn't go through Aurora, IL, they can't call it "Aurora Borealis". If they called it "Twin Cities Borealis", that might offend Wisconsin, who is partly paying for it, and also implies the train goes to Minneapolis.

Wonder if they will place a Cabbage-40 on one end of it, not that Chicago has a good record in keeping their 5 on the road.

 

[OmahaRoad]

If you Google "borealis", you get, almost exclusively, hits on "aurora borealis", but "borealis' does NOT mean the Northern Lights. "Borealis" is an adjective meaning "northern". There also exist the "Borealis Basin", a very large, very ancient depression or crater on Mars which includes its north polar region, and the "boreal forest" (aka taiga), the large cold forest covering much of Canada, Alaska, northern Europe and Russia.

Aurora was the Greek goddess of the dawn, and borealis is Greek for northern, so the aurora borealis is the Northern Sky Glow. The ancient Greeks did not know about charged particles, the solar wind, or the Earth's magnetic field. The sky in the east glows before sunrise, and they thought the aurora borealis was a variation of the same phenomenon.

So technically, a train called the "Borealis" is not named for either stars or an atmospheric phenomenon, but just the fact that it goes north.

A trip that long definitely requires and deserves decent meal service.

I love your historical and technical explanation, John! Very interesting, especially the explanation about the ancient Greeks! So you are definitely right in a technical sense

However, I am 98% sure that those who named this train were not thinking of the real meaning or origin of borealis, and mean the train to be named after the aurora borealis due to it traversing two states where that phenomenon can be seen. (Plus, the name Northern Lights name was taken) Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong and have someone at a ribbon cutting say "And we named this train Borealis meaning Greek for Northern!" We'll just have to wait and see

 

[Willbridge]

I love your historical and technical explanation, John! Very interesting, especially the explanation about the ancient Greeks! So you are definitely right in a technical sense

However, I am 98% sure that those who named this train were not thinking of the real meaning or origin of borealis, and mean the train to be named after the aurora borealis due to it traversing two states where that phenomenon can be seen. (Plus, the name Northern Lights name was taken) Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong and have someone at a ribbon cutting say "And we named this train Borealis meaning Greek for Northern!" We'll just have to wait and see

Giving it a Greek name may result in a protest from the Turkish government.