Stadler Flirt Hydrogen MUs for Amtrak California

[dlagrua]

While this technology is not available as yet, Toyota has developed an engine that runs on Ammonia who's atoms are constructed of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. No carbon exists in Ammonia so perhaps this will eventually be the solution of zero carbon emission rail and automobiles.

 

[jis]

While this technology is not available as yet, Toyota has developed an engine that runs on Ammonia who's atoms are constructed of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. No carbon exists in Ammonia so perhaps this will eventually be the solution of zero carbon emission rail and automobiles.

Ahem two Hydrogen and one Oxygen atom would be H2O molecule otherwise known as Water.

Ammonia molecules are NH3, three Hydrogens and one Nitrogen atom. Nitrogen Oxides in exhaust are a bit of a problem but can be managed using catalytic converters.

 

[frequentflyer]

No these will bee tested state wide, calsta and caltrans really want it to work so they don't have to wire up

I read that CAHSR was trying to cut costs by skipping the catenary. Did not know if it was true or not. Guess it is. I did read (your posts?) that FLIRTS were going to be used to connect SFO and SAC to CAHSR.

 

[tgstubbs1]

Pretty good video. So they use hydro electric power from the dam for electrolysis to make the hydrogen and then the hydrogen powered fuel cells make electricity to power the train. I guess the conversion is not highly efficient but in this case it should reduce the carbon footprint.
I like the laundry, too, but I can't see than many trains adopting one.

 

[jis]

Pretty good video. So they use hydro electric power from the dam for electrolysis to make the hydrogen and then the hydrogen powered fuel cells make electricity to power the train. I guess the conversion is not highly efficient but in this case it should reduce the carbon footprint.
I like the laundry, too, but I can't see than many trains adopting one.

Except that all that pile of energy that is wasted trying to do the conversion could have been used to run a few more trains if simple electrification were used instead of the series of conversions, so potentially do greater amount of decarbonization.

 

[user 14106]

It seems for hydrogen to really be meaningful sustainable decarbonization will require further technological advances not currently available.

 

[jiml]

Except that all that pile of energy that is wasted trying to do the conversion could have been used to run a few more trains if simple electrification were used instead of the series of conversions, so potentially do greater amount of decarbonization.

Exactly. Gadgetbahn in its basic form. I wondered how much the operator actually paid (if anything) for this trainset given its advertising value. Getting "green" Mr. Downie in to endorse the decision sealed the pitch.

 

[GDRRiley]

I read that CAHSR was trying to cut costs by skipping the catenary. Did not know if it was true or not. Guess it is. I did read (your posts?) that FLIRTS were going to be used to connect SFO and SAC to CAHSR.

There was one push by a few LA politicians who wanted to take Prop1A money for local projects even though legally they can't. The units will likely be tested network wide on all amtrak california intercity routes and likely some region trains as well because CalSTA and Caltrans really want these to be the future.

 

[west point]

IMO by 5 - 7 years at most the cost of Hydrogen production will have to be energy neutral. Otherwise, enough voices will arise that Hydrogen power does not make sense. If so, then hydrogen vehicles will slowly disappear,

 

[BlackDiamond]

Ahem two Hydrogen and one Oxygen atom would be H2O molecule otherwise known as Water.

Ammonia molecules are NH3, three Hydrogens and one Nitrogen atom. Nitrogen Oxides in exhaust are a bit of a problem but can be managed using catalytic converters

This is probably referring to an aqueous solution of ammonia in water which is sometimes erroneously referred to as ammonium hydroxide or NH4OH, in which case you have the extra oxygen and hydrogen atoms. The aqueous solution is what you get when you buy " ammonia" at the supermarket. Pure NH3 would be a gas.

 

[cirdan]

IMO by 5 - 7 years at most the cost of Hydrogen production will have to be energy neutral. Otherwise, enough voices will arise that Hydrogen power does not make sense. If so, then hydrogen vehicles will slowly disappear,

One of the things about renewable energy is that you need massive overcapacity to compensate for variability in supply. So at times of peak production you are massively over-producing electricity, and things like hydrogen electrolysis are a good way to dispose of that surplus energy. The business model for hydrogen thus assumes hydrogen producers can purchase surplus electricity at well below market cost. As such, efficiency and conversion losses are not a major concern.

So far so good. The big disruptive factor here is that they will be competing against other buyers of surplus electricity, including battery storage solutions. Only time will tell who will prevail.

 

[jis]

So far so good. The big disruptive factor here is that they will be competing against other buyers of surplus electricity, including battery storage solutions. Only time will tell who will prevail.

Purely from an efficient use of energy perspective, it appears that battery storage is more efficient than Hydrogen storage of energy. However, it is also true that the consensus at present appears to be that heavy transportation equipment may have to opt for Hydrogen unless someone figures out how to gas up a battery with several megawatts in a reasonable amount of time. So there are lot of open questions.

Meanwhile, while these issues are ironed out, it appears that Thermal Power Station with scrubbers and perhaps even Carbon capture units will rule the roost for quite a time to come notwithstanding all the pious promises made, specially for base loads in places that refuse to take another look at Nuclear.

 

[cirdan]

In Germany there is a project to inject hydrogen into natural gas pipelines. Apparently a certain percentage of hydrogen can be tolerated by consumers without requiring modification to equipment. This would permit a partial decarbonization of the gas supply.

 

[GDRRiley]

In Germany there is a project to inject hydrogen into natural gas pipelines. Apparently a certain percentage of hydrogen can be tolerated by consumers without requiring modification to equipment. This would permit a partial decarbonization of the gas supply.

Socal Edison and others want to do that as well. It just doesn't make sense to do in warmer places. CA doesn't need natural gas outside of industrial uses given our climate.

I the cost of these units was 20M each, thats about 1.5 times what a DMU and about double what a EMU would cost
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