Staff hogging space in the cafe

[Lonestar648]

Unless there is a reason, like the attendant has inventory on the table he or she is still checking in or was received during the trip, I think the employee should be asked to release all the booths. Maybe a comment to the Conductor. If that falls on deaf ears, then Amtrak should be contacted with specifics of the trip and the employees involved.

 

[Bob Dylan]

One of the problems about your suggestion is that the Conductors themselves are often the table hogs in the Diner and Cafe.

Also most Conductors aren't really interested in telling OBS Crew what to do, especially the LSAs who generally run their Diner or Cafe the way they want, not the required Amtrak way.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I've been aboard trains and witnessed crew members sitting at separate tables. Those tables are not for everyone. Not everyone can fit collectively in those booths. However, not one person even attempted to sit across or even next to them. Does that mean they were "hogging" the tables? ...It is one thing if they are monopolizing the tables and refusing to let anyone sit next them, blocking the space upon request or not moving if a group wants a table.. It is quite another if they are just sitting there and no one even attempts to sit with them or looks, doesn't see an empty table and just walks away.

So you're alert enough to notice that few if any passengers are going to sit next to Amtrak staff uninvited, and yet you're unwilling accept that as a practical matter this means those tables are essentially off limits to customers? What sign or message would give Amtrak passengers any reason to believe that tables with staff and paperwork are free for their use? Nothing I've ever seen or heard from Amtrak staff would give me a reason to believe that. If anything I'd probably want to keep my distance to avoid a confrontation in a situation where Amtrak controls where I get off and who meets me there. Your own personal experience answers your question better than any of us ever could; you're just not quite ready to believe your own eyes from the sounds of it.

 

[zepherdude]

If it is the cafe, there would be an attendant manning the cafe counter, who could be asked.

That was my line of thought.

In my experience the cafe attendant is often the one who creates the mess and/or admonishes anyone who tries to sit where staff stuff is spread out.

I have had an attendant tell me her stuff is very important stuff and cannot be moved. Like I care.

 

[Thirdrail7]

So you're alert enough to notice that few if any passengers are going to sit next to Amtrak staff uninvited, and yet you're unwilling accept that as a practical matter this means those tables are essentially off limits to customers?

I'm alert enough to notice that few passengers will attempt to sit next to ANYONE if there is an option. If they can find a seat or a table where they're likely to be alone, that is what people tend to do. This has also included people that they are traveling with. They'll sit across the aisle from each other, with their belongings against the window seat. I'm also alert enough to know that this is a public forum (in this case, transportation) and I don't need to feel "invited" or "welcome" to take a seat...that I paid for.

What sign or message would give Amtrak passengers any reason to believe that tables with staff and paperwork are free for their use?

The same sign or message that often occurs when a passenger is looking for a seat and they see another person is occupying two seats with personal belongings or their feet or sleeping across multiple seats, in a packed train despite multiple announcements advising "the train is sold out and please make all seats available...there are people looking for seats". People will often attempt to avoid saying something but when they run out of options or they want "that" seat, they usually say "excuse, is anyone sitting here?" or if the space is empty, they'll merely sit down. Papers on the tables would mean very little to me. The only way papers would dissuade me is if they were actually on the seat. Now, if there is food on the table, that is a different story.

Nothing I've ever seen or heard from Amtrak staff would give me a reason to believe that. If anything I'd probably want to keep my distance to avoid a confrontation in a situation where Amtrak controls where I get off and who meets me there. Your own personal experience answers your question better than any of us ever could; you're just not quite ready to believe your own eyes from the sounds of it.

Perhaps you are talking to the wrong people or your wish to avoid a confrontation (I wouldn't have guessed) made you feel "uninvited?"

My personal experiences don't lead to confrontation or me standing. They lead me to saying "excuse me", is this taken" or "excuse me, are you using this batting cage" or going right to someone's dinner table at a pizzeria and asking "Are you done with the oregano shaker? Yes? Good...I can put it back with the rest of the condiments if you'd like."

Somehow, when it comes to strangers in public, I've never felt the need to feel invited But, not everyone is me.

That being said, the crew is allowed a work space. On trains without crew quarters, they should use general seating. However, if general seating is sold out, they are allowed a work space in the cafe car.

"A" table. Not two...not three. They are allowed 1 table as a work space. That does not mean they are confined to one table. Neroden said it best when he said they may not monopolize the tables for work space. If they do, it is definitely not allowed and if for some reason someone DID say you can't sit with them, definitely get names and report it. Immediately.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

If none of them were around I would be tempted to discretely take a picture of the table occupied by paperwork and send it with my complaint. I would not to take pictures of the any crew. Iirc that is a violation of the amtrak policy unless permission us granted.

No. Taking photos of crew in an area accessible by passengers in not a violation of Amtrak policy.https://www.amtrak.com/photography-video-recording-policy

When I read the webpage you reference, I see this list of places you can't take pictures:

Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following:

1.Platforms (ticketed passengers are exempt)

2.Crew and Employee Work Areas

3.Maintenance Facilities

4.Unoccupied Trains and Engines

5.Office Areas

6.Employee Elevators

7.Baggage/Delivery Areas

8.Commissaries

9.Right of Way and Track Areas

10.In service train cars

I would think that taking these pictures might violate either #2 or #10. Either the tables are part of a crew work area (doesn't exclude informal or temporary areas), or a part of an in-service train car.

 

[tommylicious]

Always take lots of pictures of everything.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm alert enough to notice that few passengers will attempt to sit next to ANYONE if there is an option. If they can find a seat or a table where they're likely to be alone, that is what people tend to do. This has also included people that they are traveling with. They'll sit across the aisle from each other, with their belongings against the window seat. I'm also alert enough to know that this is a public forum (in this case, transportation) and I don't need to feel "invited" or "welcome" to take a seat...that I paid for. The same sign or message that often occurs when a passenger is looking for a seat and they see another person is occupying two seats with personal belongings or their feet or sleeping across multiple seats, in a packed train despite multiple announcements advising "the train is sold out and please make all seats available...there are people looking for seats". People will often attempt to avoid saying something but when they run out of options or they want "that" seat, they usually say "excuse, is anyone sitting here?" or if the space is empty, they'll merely sit down. Papers on the tables would mean very little to me. The only way papers would dissuade me is if they were actually on the seat. Now, if there is food on the table, that is a different story. Perhaps you are talking to the wrong people or your wish to avoid a confrontation (I wouldn't have guessed) made you feel "uninvited?" My personal experiences don't lead to confrontation or me standing. They lead me to saying "excuse me", is this taken" or "excuse me, are you using this batting cage" or going right to someone's dinner table at a pizzeria and asking "Are you done with the oregano shaker? Yes? Good...I can put it back with the rest of the condiments if you'd like." Somehow, when it comes to strangers in public, I've never felt the need to feel invited But, not everyone is me. That being said, the crew is allowed a work space. On trains without crew quarters, they should use general seating. However, if general seating is sold out, they are allowed a work space in the cafe car. "A" table. Not two...not three. They are allowed 1 table as a work space. That does not mean they are confined to one table. Neroden said it best when he said they may not monopolize the tables for work space. If they do, it is definitely not allowed and if for some reason someone DID say you can't sit with them, definitely get names and report it. Immediately.

Amtrak has limited space, so people need to bunch up in ways that are unfamiliar to them but common on Amtrak, fair enough, but rather than lead by example some Amtrak staff spread themselves across multiple tables as if the seating is unlimited. I've seen enough passive aggressive signs on tables and heard enough passengers snapped at to know that sitting with staff is not always welcome on all trains. So how is a customer supposed to know that this particular train welcomes them to sit down with staff even though the last train had a sign that warned them not to or a staff member that scolded them for trying?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The bigger problem here is not staff sitting at a table.. It's employee attitude. I've seen Conductors sitting at booths with paperwork neatly on the table, and they greet passengers from time to time.... not necessarily everyone who walks by but they make it a point to make eye contact, nod, etc. They make themselves appear professional and approachable. Likewise a cafe attendant who sits down when things are slow or when an inventor needs to be worked on, but keeps an eye out on the cafe and appears ready to assist passengers.

That doesn't seem to be the norm though.... More than likely you'll see Conductors and cafe attendants take over multiple tables spreading as much paperwork, work supplies, and personal luggage across the tables and booths as possible. They will lounge about and talk about work related problems, personal problems, and otherwise treat the lounge as an employee break room.

My last visit to a cafe car I heard employee discussions on passengers who tip vs passengers who don't tip, amtrak not treating employees right, why a crew member wanted to transfer to another crew base etc.

 

[pennyk]

I have been on the Silver Meteor when all cafe car tables have been occupied. Rather than sitting down with a family playing cards, a few times, I have asked a crew member if I could share a table. Each time, the crew member invited me to sit with him or her.

However, most of the time, there are tables available or only occupied with one person. I am OK with sharing a table.

 

[williamn]

To be honest, I found the crew to be so unfriendly, even slightly aggressive, I didn't really want to ask them. Nor the cafe attendant, who was monosyllabic. As suggested I have contacted Amtrak with a complaint (also about the incredibly dirty windows, half the reason of taking the train).

 

[Skyline]

I don't have a problem asking either pax or crew if "that seat is taken." It's not always a welcome question, but sometimes it nets a cordial response and so I wind up scoring not only a seat but some people to strike up a convo with. Socialization is one of the things that have always attracted me to trains. You can't usually find that on buses, aircraft, etc. because you're usually stuck in one seat.

Once, I was told by crew that so-and-so will be right back. So I said, "OK, I'll just sit here until she does..." Yes, I was ignored by crew at that table, and no, "she" never came back but it gave me a place to sit until I could see another space open up which I quickly grabbed. Beats standing!

 

[Steve4031]

To be honest, I found the crew to be so unfriendly, even slightly aggressive, I didn't really want to ask them. Nor the cafe attendant, who was monosyllabic. As suggested I have contacted Amtrak with a complaint (also about the incredibly dirty windows, half the reason of taking the train).

Thus was the type of experience I was thinking of when i mentioned taking pictures. There is no since in even mentioning the fact that they are hogging tables. They know what they are doing and their attitudes cause passengers to shy away.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[PerRock]

If none of them were around I would be tempted to discretely take a picture of the table occupied by paperwork and send it with my complaint. I would not to take pictures of the any crew. Iirc that is a violation of the amtrak policy unless permission us granted.

No. Taking photos of crew in an area accessible by passengers in not a violation of Amtrak policy.https://www.amtrak.com/photography-video-recording-policy

When I read the webpage you reference, I see this list of places you can't take pictures:

Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following:

1.Platforms (ticketed passengers are exempt)

2.Crew and Employee Work Areas

3.Maintenance Facilities

4.Unoccupied Trains and Engines

5.Office Areas

6.Employee Elevators

7.Baggage/Delivery Areas

8.Commissaries

9.Right of Way and Track Areas

10.In service train cars

I would think that taking these pictures might violate either #2 or #10. Either the tables are part of a crew work area (doesn't exclude informal or temporary areas), or a part of an in-service train car.

If you read the section just above that it states that the a restricted area must have a sign or barrier indicating that it is restricted.

Public Area. An area open to general public access and occupancy (station areas and platforms for ticketed passengers only) that is not otherwise posted or restricted by posted signs or locking devices. Signage, building design and physical barriers, i.e. fencing, bollards, etc., may also distinguish a public area from a restricted area.

In reality their rules are pretty vague, presumably to give them the ability to tell you to bugger off when desired.

peter

 

[tommylicious]

Take pictures, post, and shame the bad behavior!

 

[Trainmans daughter]

Sometimes photos show the good stuff!

 

[rtabern]

My favorite experience with this was a few months ago on one of the Michigan trains... A cafe car that was configured to be 1/3 business class, 1/3 a cafe sale-food prep area, and 1/3 a lounge area. The lounge area appeared to orginially have 7 booths. Three were removed for bike racks... so youre down to just 4 booths on the same side. One booth was taken up by the LSA and his belongings and paperwork. Another booth the two conductors were at with paperwork strewn across. The third booth was taken up by two Trails and Rails guys from Chicago to Kalamazoo. Only one actual booth for customers! WTF! And people wonder why I get excited the rare week or two they run the full length dome car here the Midwest.

Give me some nice lounge space to stretch out and relax or I would rather fly and get from Chicago to Detroit in 1 hour vs. 6 hours.

 

[user 1215]

All Japanese long distance trains have a conductor's booth where they have plenty of room to do their paperwork and can be found if needed by passengers.

I thought some Amtrak trains had this, too, but they refused to use it.

There should be a fine line between passenger areas and crew areas. I'm sick of being told as a passenger that I can't go in public areas - like in the Café Car after hours on a Superliner when they block the staircase with the big paper trashbox. And when Viewliner SCA's put their personal crap in the shower so we can't use it.

Give the crew their NEEDED space, and keep them out of the PUBLIC space!

Better yet, bring back the CABOOSE and let them ride in it! lol

 

[Lonestar648]

I was told that the lower level of the SSL is only open to the public when the Cafe is open and manned for safety reasons. I have been told a couple times in the past on the Viewliner that the shower was not working, wonder if it was just the SCA keeping things in there?

 

[PVD]

I've only had a non working shower on a VL once, car was in a deep freeze. On a SL with a bad shower the SCA just let us know he spoke to the adjacent car SCA and we were welcome to use that. There is very little storage space on a VL, I've seen luggage stashed in the shower, and occasionally a linen bag, but the SCA always told us to let him know and he would move them out for us.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

My experience has been similar with a VL shower. If the VL SCA has anything stored in the shower, they will quickly move it out if someone (like me) wants to take a shower. No hassle or blowback. IMHO, I think they do this because very few passengers actually take a shower, so they view that space as going pretty much unused.

When the VL coffee station is broken or not setup, I have wandered back to the dining car, sometimes, late at night. I find hot coffee, paper "to go" cups and lids, creamers, sugar, and stirrers, all on the counter. So, I help myself to a cup. No one has ever questioned or stopped me.

 

[Seaboard92]

I've had a case on a train I was contracted to work on. Where the car owner had a three top blocked out for himself. I had two passengers who could not sit backwards on account of motion sickness who were bumped from their original car by a fifty person group.

So I talked to him for fifteen minutes and got nowhere about them using two of his three seats (he didn't even have to move). Needless to say nothing got done and I had to get the road foreman involved who just moved his stuff downstairs and told him paying customers come above crew.

Another thing to account no one liked this particular car owner.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I have been on the Silver Meteor when all cafe car tables have been occupied. Rather than sitting down with a family playing cards, a few times, I have asked a crew member if I could share a table. Each time, the crew member invited me to sit with him or her. However, most of the time, there are tables available or only occupied with one person. I am OK with sharing a table.

If you had to ask was it really an invite?

Now that I know the staff are apparently expected to make room for passengers I might try calling their bluff on a future trip, but it wouldn't surprise me to discover that a working age male may not receive the same response as a retired female.

 

[pennyk]

Now that I know the staff are apparently expected to make room for passengers I might try calling their bluff on a future trip, but it wouldn't surprise me to discover that a working age male may not receive the same response as a retired female.

I agree that the fact that I am a fairly small woman may have made a difference. I may not have been "retired" (aka old) at the time I was "invited" to share a table.

 

[railiner]

All Japanese long distance trains have a conductor's booth where they have plenty of room to do their paperwork and can be found if needed by passengers.

I thought some Amtrak trains had this, too, but they refused to use it.

There should be a fine line between passenger areas and crew areas. I'm sick of being told as a passenger that I can't go in public areas - like in the Café Car after hours on a Superliner when they block the staircase with the big paper trashbox. And when Viewliner SCA's put their personal crap in the shower so we can't use it.

Give the crew their NEEDED space, and keep them out of the PUBLIC space!

Better yet, bring back the CABOOSE and let them ride in it! lol

Great rant!

Some crew would love it, if they had a cabin car, (oops, pardon my "PennsySpeak"), I mean caboose to ride in, or even a deadhead coach, isolated from the passengers....other's would not since they would miss out on the 'entertainment' of being in the middle of the 'action'....