Stations that aren't in the downtown

[xyzzy]

The former stations in Savannah and Charleston required a back-up move for through-trains. Would the old station in Charleston have survived, had it not burned in the 1940s? Can't say. Likewise, would the station in Savannah have survived if there had been no I-16? Can't say, but I'm sure ACL and SAL would have been tempted to get rid of it anyway. Back-up moves are not popular. That's one reason why Southern got rid of Terminal Station in downtown Atlanta. It required a back-up move for the Southerner and Crescent after they were combined as the Southern Crescent.

 

[Anderson]

Yeah...there's been some chatter about bringing back Broad Street Station in Richmond that has made me facepalm for this exact reason: Even if they could resurrect it and it proved to be cheaper to displace the Science Museum of Virginia than to build a fresh station, the track layout there involves backing up off of the A-line and S-line from what I've seen. The only major plus would be equipment storage space; the only way it would work, IMHO, would be if you could make through tracks happen...and from what I recall, you can't do so cheaply.

 

[xyzzy]

As built, Broad Street Station had a loop. No back-up move was required for ACL/RF&P movements in either direction. Of course, the area occupied by the loop track was filled in after the station closed. For clarity, after SAL moved into Broad Street prior to the merger with takeover by ACL in 1967, SAL trains did require a back-up move.

 

[BCL]

Edit: San Francisco is an interesting case, and it is a bit surprising in some sense that Amtrak hasn't run services in there. In that case, you simply have a bay problem (if a train is not terminating in San Francisco, it is not going to San Francisco).

Edit 2: The "decentralized city" issue pops up a lot. Another issue is that, like in the case of Newport News, sometimes the "downtown" relocates over time.

San Francisco has had passenger rail for over 150 years though - the current Caltrain system. SP bought out a short line railroad from San Jose to San Francisco and owned it until the late 80s and operated it until the early 90s. In fact, Amtrak operated Caltrain until a few years ago, but I don't think it was tightly integrated with other Amtrak services. Workers wore Caltrain specific uniforms. There are convenient connection points to Amtrak services, especially San Jose Diridon. However, I'd think most would just use the bus from EMY or OKJ to get to San Francisco.

 

[jshell]

Richmond Virginia's way-out-in-nowhere RVR station is the one I remember being most disappointed by. I've only been there once, around 1999/2000, when I was transferring to a sleeper since the sleepers don't stop in Fredericksburg VA where I was living at the time. I was excited to have a little time to wander around Richmond since I seldom went there, and was bummed to find myself deep in some suburban industrial area instead. Made worse by the sleeper train being late and there just being NOTHING to do around there after having been spoiled by Washington, Baltimore, Wilmington, Philadelphia, NYC, etc.

I remember seeing downtown Richmond's old Main Street Station on the car ride back on that same trip. I remember wishing that the train had stopped there. The building was in really bad shape at the time, but sometimes I do love sad old buildings. Looking at Wikipedia to refresh my memory ("did I really see an old train station there, and was it in as bad of shape as I remember?"), it was refurbished and reopened a few years later but still is limited in what it serves.

 

[jphjaxfl]

As built, Broad Street Station had a loop. No back-up move was required for ACL/RF&P movements in either direction. Of course, the area occupied by the loop track was filled in after the station closed. For clarity, after SAL moved into Broad Street prior to the merger with takeover by ACL in 1967, SAL trains did require a back-up move.

I remember traveling through Richmond Broad Street in the early 1970s. I was on the northbound Vacationer which was a winter only train. We arrived early and the northbound Champion pulled in just after we did on the next track. I got off the train and spent alot of time talking to the crew. Broad Street had a balloon track very similar to what Cincinnati Union Terminal had. Later that same year. I caught the Silver Meteor northbound from Richmond Broad Street and I was coming in from Norfolk via bus so I had a long time to explore that beautiful station. I have also traveled through Richmond Main Street on the C&O.

 

[afigg]

The Baltimore station is very much downtown.

Baltimore Penn Station is not in downtown Baltimore. It is in the city, but well north of the downtown city core. As to why the station is at that location, the Penn RR route through Baltimore skirts the northern edge of the Fall Line, the boundary between the Piedmont plateau and the coastal plan. The geology and geography of Baltimore along with the limits of tunnel technology in the later 1800s were key factors in placement of the station. The 2005 report from the FRA on Baltimore's Railroad network that was the initial study on the major tunnels in Baltimore provides historical background and an overview of the geography of the Baltimore region.

Link to FRA eLibrary search for the two Baltimore railroad and tunnel network study reports. Ok, can't get link with an embedded search to work; if interested go to FRA eLibrary and do a search for "Baltimore's Railroad"

Amtrak's proposal for the Next Gen HSR NEC proposed to build a new station in downtown Baltimore with a new long (and deep) tunnel under the city, which would cost a LOT of money to build. Even if there broad political support for a new true HSR NEC, IMHO it would be very difficult to economically justify an entirely new tunnel under downtown Baltimore. I think funds would be better spent on building out a better rail transit system in Baltimore with the proposed N-S rail transit line from downtown to Penn Station and Towson. Then Penn Station would be directly connected to downtown and a proper regional transit system. But with the future of the E-W Baltimore Red Line hanging in the balance with a highway oriented new Governor, a new N-S rail transit line is many years in the future at best.

edit: FRA link fix.

 

[NW cannonball]

Let's define "downtown" as an area in the city where you can connect to local transit, ongoing long-distance transit, find fairly low-priced clean decent place to sleep.

Reasonable definition?

Some cities don't have that anymore. Many do.

 

[neutralist]

Let's define "downtown" as an area in the city where you can connect to local transit, ongoing long-distance transit, find fairly low-priced clean decent place to sleep.

8th-grade Geography taught us that "downtown" is an American term that is equivalent of the CBD (Central Business District).

 

[poolturn]

One must keep in mind, functioning at or above the 8th grade level is a challenge for most in America (this site included). People that don't have a clue about railroading are asked now to identify geographic concepts of development? No wonder you have people claiming Denver and Philadelphia and New York are served by stations out in the 'sticks'

 

[Anderson]

The new station going in about 3-4 years from now (it's fully funded by the state) will be more in the "new downtown" area.

Please elaborate!

My wife's parents still live there (mid-Hampton), and they may need to avail themselves of this mode of transportation. Due to medical conditions (urostomy) - flying is out, and also due to their advanced age, driving seems like a bad idea. Anyway, they are determined to come out again this year to visit us. I had them map out a ride via Amtrak, and the NPN station would be their kickoff point. They were quoted a little over $2K for a round trip (with bedroom/first class) with NEC to WAS, then CL to CHI and TE to CBR. I thought that was pretty good, but her stepfather decided that it would be better for them to drive - that way they could "see more of the country*". So, I see them getting out here and realizing that the return trip would be more than they can handle, so I would have to drive them back. Rather than flying PHF to DFW (and not having a way to get the 98 miles home) or to ACT (still 48 miles from home), I think that we could take that trip NPN to CBR and have our son give us a lift home from there. I mentioned this to my wife and she says that I probably shouldn't embark on such an adventure alone and has decided that she would accompany me if my premonition comes to pass.

* code word for "save some money"

Just saw this. Ok, the plan is to add a station at roughly Bland and I-64 (more or less across from the airport). The initial funding source was an earmark for an interchange there, but it's now state-funded (since there's a steady flow of cash coming from IPROC...I'll explain more upon request).

At the moment we only have two trains per day, though the long(er) term plan is to bump that up to at least three (we were supposed to get the train Norfolk did, but NS decided to be super-cooperative and the state jumped at the opportunity to add Norfolk to the system). The main issue at the moment is that Norfolk and Newport News are fighting over trains.

 

[Ryan]

Baltimore Penn Station is not in downtown Baltimore. It is in the city, but well north of the downtown city core.

Well north? Not really.

Downtown Baltimore is the central business district of Baltimore traditionally bounded by Martin Luther King, Jr. Boulevard to the west, Mt. Royal Avenue to the north, President Street to the east and the Inner Harbor area to the south. It consists of five neighborhoods: Westside, Mount Vernon, City Centre, Inner Harbor, and Camden Yards.

Mount Vernon, also known as the cultural district, is a high-density area known for its attractive nightlife, buoyed by its large amount of bars, clubs and lounges and its historic multi-story townhomes (most of which have been transformed into apartments) and traditional apartment buildings. Mount Vernon features the Joseph Meyerhoff Symphony Hall, home of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, as well as the Lyric Opera House. The world-renowned Peabody Institute is also located in Mount Vernon. To the very north is Penn Station, which offers Amtrak service to several U.S. major cities as well as MARC service to Washington, D.C.

That puts Penn station right on the northern edge. For any useful definition of the word, BAL is downtown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Baltimore

 

[Anderson]

Yes, and as noted the Light Rail goes directly to Penn about every 30 minutes...and there's a more frequent stop about three blocks away at Mount Royal.

 

[niemi24s]

FWIW, Baltimore's Penn Station is about 1.1 miles North of the red dot on Google Earth labeled "Downtown".

 

[afigg]

Let's define "downtown" as an area in the city where you can connect to local transit, ongoing long-distance transit, find fairly low-priced clean decent place to sleep.

Reasonable definition?

Some cities don't have that anymore. Many do.

Downtown is typically defined as the central business district or the commercial center of the city. Even cities with a lot of sprawl usually have a CBD or a place that qualifies as "downtown". Downtown may or may not have many hotels or be completely dead outside of weekday business hours, but it is the "downtown" for that city. Local transit, reasonably priced clean decent hotels or motels are a separate consideration.

 

[afigg]

Yes, and as noted the Light Rail goes directly to Penn about every 30 minutes...and there's a more frequent stop about three blocks away at Mount Royal.

I've been to Baltimore on Amtrak a number of times as WAS-BAL is a good points run for me. Used to live north of Baltimore in Baltimore County many years ago when my father worked in, yes, downtown Bawlmore. I don't consider Baltimore Penn Station to be that close to downtown. it is a long hike on foot to get to the start of the more active retail and commercial district. The light rail runs infrequently and only gets to you to the western edge of the downtown/convention center/Inner Harbor district. The best way to get "downtown" from Penn Station is on the Charm City Circulator Purple Route bus. I personally don't consider BAL to be located downtown, but on the northern edge of the city core, but we can disagree on that.

As to the original question of stations that are not downtown, that is the case for most Amtrak stations, even in the major eastern cities. Geography, history, availability of land when the railroads were building new stations in the late 1800s and early 1900s, money, politics, competition with other railroads all contributed to the placement of the stations that survived into the Amtrak era.

 

[chakk]

Camden Station --now used by MARC commuter trains and previously by the Baltimore & Ohio - is definitely in downtown Baltimore. Four blocks east was the President ST station, used by a railroad in the 19th century. Another station was in the downtown area on Calvert St, but there were no direct rail connections between these 3 stations. B&O trains ran north from camden sta thru the howard st tunnel to Mt Royal station, just a few blocks west of Baltimore Penn station

 

[cirdan]

Would you consider a place like Houston downtown.

The walk to downtown is less than say, New Orleans, but New Orleans has much better local transportation links serving the location and is also more walkable.

So it's not just about the strictly geographic distance but to what extent a location is integrated in the urban fabric, including being welcoming and safe.

 

[niemi24s]

With the downtown status of well over 800 additional stations remaining to be resolved, this thread has the potential of becoming the longest one in history by the time the last one is settled.

I'll continue with an easy one by mentioning the Amtrak station at Grand Forks, ND. Should be no argument about that one - I hope!. Grand Forks doesn't qualify as a big City? It is if you're from Bowbells!

 

[MARC Rider]

Baltimore Penn Station is not in downtown Baltimore. It is in the city, but well north of the downtown city core.

Well north? Not really.

Downtown Baltimore is the central business district of Baltimore traditionally bounded by Martin Luther King, Jr. Boulevard to the west, Mt. Royal Avenue to the north, President Street to the east and the Inner Harbor area to the south. It consists of five neighborhoods: Westside, Mount Vernon, City Centre, Inner Harbor, and Camden Yards.

Mount Vernon, also known as the cultural district, is a high-density area known for its attractive nightlife, buoyed by its large amount of bars, clubs and lounges and its historic multi-story townhomes (most of which have been transformed into apartments) and traditional apartment buildings. Mount Vernon features the Joseph Meyerhoff Symphony Hall, home of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, as well as the Lyric Opera House. The world-renowned Peabody Institute is also located in Mount Vernon. To the very north is Penn Station, which offers Amtrak service to several U.S. major cities as well as MARC service to Washington, D.C.

That puts Penn station right on the northern edge. For any useful definition of the word, BAL is downtown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Baltimore

As someone who passes through Baltimore Penn Station every day, I have to agree with Ryan 100%. The only reason I might say the the station is not 100% "downtown" is that it is separated from Mt. Royal Avenue by I-83, which runs through in a ditch (they could cover it and develop the air rights). But youcan walk right over it on Charles or St. Paul Steets, both of which have full sidewalks and are fully signaled. And the station is "separated" from the gentrifying neighborhoods to the north by the train tracks of the NEC. It is a very easy walk from the station to the Mt. Vernon neighborhood, the central business district office towers and the inner harbor. For those who don't wantto ar can't walk, there's a free circulator bus that runs from the tsation to the Inner Harbor.

By the way, we locals also refer to outlying neighborhoods such as Federal Hill, South Baltimore, Fells Point, Canton, etc., as being "downtown." (though maybe Canton is a bit of a stretch.).

This might be the place to Mention that Baltimore does have a train station right near the Inner Harbor (and the baseball stadium) known as Camden Station, one of the older train stations in the US. This station serves the MARC commuter lines that run to Washington Mondays through Fridays.

 

[neroden]

Baltimore Penn Station is not in downtown Baltimore. Why is that? Was there ever a station downtown?

No. Baltimore is a *old city*, which was large before the railroads arrived. Like Philadelphia.
There was rampant NIMBYism in both cities when the railroads first came through and the companies had to skirt around the old downtowns (generally as closely as they could) rather than going through the middle of them. In Baltimore the presence of the bay also discouraged a direct downtown routing. The Camden Line station is the closest any of the railroads could get to downtown, although there were proposals to have stations right in the middle of the Howard St. tunnel.

In newer cities which lack downtown stations, there usually was a downtown station which was ripped out in the 1950s or thereabouts.

 

[CoachSlumber]

San Jose at least has a nice LRT to get you to downtown.

Strictly speaking New York Penn Station isn't quite downtown either. Nor is Philadelphia 30th St. Station or Boston South Station for that matter.

"Downtown" for Manhattan has a kind of distinctive meaning not really like that for other cities. Penn Station is in an area as bustling as any.

 

[CoachSlumber]

Nor are Union Stations in Chicago, New Orleans, Memphis, Kansas City or Denver.

I'd say Union Station qualifies as downtown. Heart of the Loop? No. But it's about three blocks from the Sears Tower. Same with Denver; it's right in the city. And New Orleans station is on the edge of downtown.

 

[jis]

San Jose at least has a nice LRT to get you to downtown.

Strictly speaking New York Penn Station isn't quite downtown either. Nor is Philadelphia 30th St. Station or Boston South Station for that matter.

"Downtown" for Manhattan has a kind of distinctive meaning not really like that for other cities. Penn Station is in an area as bustling as any.

Good to know that I had no idea what downtown New York is, having lived around it for thirty five years. There are lots of places in New York that is bustling that is not downtown.

 

[Ryan]

You learn something new every day.