Stephen Gardner new Amtrak president

[jiml]

If they expect the speculated about Detroit - Toronto service to have a stop in Windsor that does not add 45 minutes to the overall running time, they will have to address the issue of building a station somewhere on the CP side between the tunnel and the junction with what now is essentially factory siding that will need to be upgraded to a main line connecting CP to CN in Windsor. Needless to say it is Canada that will have to come up with funds to do all of that, which BTW, I think they should. But of course I have what is probably less than zero say in what Canda does with its money in its territory.

The switch to CP needs to be made just west of Chatham, ON (stop prior to Windsor), which is currently a "diamond" crossing at grade. From there it's a straight shot to the tunnel, albeit through the CP yard in Windsor.
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/cp-rail-purchases-full-control-of-detroit-river-rail-tunnelThe problem is the VIA station in Walkerville is a nice station in the wrong location. They've spent money on it, so it's not likely going away - it's just not that useful if you're going to downtown Windsor or Detroit. I can't remember for certain if the (most recent) old CP station is actually gone or has been repurposed.

CP Windsor, ON:

Amtrak at Windsor:

 

[MARC Rider]

The Passport information is collected when you purchase the ticket. That rigmarole at NYP is similar to document examination at airline checkin to verify that the passenger does have a valid border crossing document. The conductor is supposed to check thos when lifting the tickets for boardings from other stations en route.

Does this always happen with international fli8ghts, too? The last one I took on United, they didn't require passport information when I bought the ticket. They wouldn't let me check in online, though. And even at the airport, when I used the self-serve kiosks, I had to wait for a real person to come out and check that my visa was in order.

 

[Trogdor]

Does this always happen with international fli8ghts, too? The last one I took on United, they didn't require passport information when I bought the ticket. They wouldn't let me check in online, though. And even at the airport, when I used the self-serve kiosks, I had to wait for a real person to come out and check that my visa was in order.

The requirements are the same, though airline systems are set up so that you can enter that information later on. But with airlines, they have staff at every airport as well as computer systems set up to scan and verify passport & visa information, so ultimately it is entered into your booking record anyway. Amtrak doesn't really have that luxury, so I assume that's why they need you to enter it when booking.

 

[jis]

Does this always happen with international fli8ghts, too? The last one I took on United, they didn't require passport information when I bought the ticket. They wouldn't let me check in online, though. And even at the airport, when I used the self-serve kiosks, I had to wait for a real person to come out and check that my visa was in order.

I was talking about Amtrak. Different airlines do things differently. The information at checkin document inspection is used both for CAPS II Security verification and for pre-validation of immigration status for international flights. At least at United, if you pre-populate the information in your profile, including photo images of relevant Passport pages and Visas, it just makes the verification quicker because then all that needs to be done is make sure the scanned documents are the same as those presented. The immigration document check is mostly to cover the airline's ass since they are required to transport anyone that they bring in with inadequate documentation to a foreign port, back to whence they came from, at the airline's expense. Likewise for Amtrak. They are not allowed to strand someone at the border.

About checking Visas, it is kind of funny when I have to educate the Visa verifier what the Visa requirements are for OCI holders to enter India, specially if checking in at an airport which does not see too many travelers to India.

On flights to the US from abroad, even if you are cleared for adequate immigration documentation, you may subsequently be denied boarding if CBP detects something when they run your documentation (collected by the airline) through CAPS II. I have seen people denied boarding at the gate for this reason. There have been cases where a flight had to turn back when CBP found a CAPS II problem for passenger on a flight after its departure from the foreign port. US has denied entry into US airspace for flights carrying passengers with CAPS II issues, even it was entering US airspace only for overflight, without landing. All this after 9/11 for obvious reasons.

 

[jis]

The switch to CP needs to be made just west of Chatham, ON (stop prior to Windsor), which is currently a "diamond" crossing at grade. From there it's a straight shot to the tunnel, albeit through the CP yard in Windsor.
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/cp-rail-purchases-full-control-of-detroit-river-rail-tunnel

That would be even better assuming Canada can bell the CP cat to allow passenger operation on that Windsor - Chatham segment of its busy track on which there is no passenger traffic rights at present.

 

[jiml]

That would be even better assuming Canada can bell the CP cat to allow passenger operation on that Windsor - Chatham segment of its busy track on which there is no passenger traffic rights at present.

Don't know about the feds, but the Ontario government seems to play well with CP and they're the ones pressing for increased service to Detroit. The latest GO train expansion is all-CP and it's on their main line:
https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/124601

 

[jis]

Don't know about the feds, but the Ontario government seems to play well with CP and they're the ones pressing for increased service to Detroit. The latest GO train expansion is all-CP and it's on their main line:
https://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/124601

Yeah, the point is someone in Canada has to make it happen. Amtrak is in no position to do anything about it either in funding or in influencing. Cheer leading from the bleachers? Sure!

 

[AmtrakFlyer]

A different time and a different world but Via’s Atlantic has always intrigued me. The train went from Montreal to Halifax on a different route then the Ocean. It dipped into Maine and made 6 stops in the US picking up and dropping of passengers before turning north and re entering Canada. Ran until 1995. Apparently some cars were sealed when entering the US others weren’t.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_(train)

 

[jiml]

A different time and a different world but Via’s Atlantic has always intrigued me. The train went from Montreal to Halifax on a different route then the Ocean. It dipped into Maine and made 6 stops in the US picking up and dropping of passengers before turning north and re entering Canada. Ran until 1995. Apparently some cars were sealed when entering the US others weren’t.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_(train)

Ex-CP train, had two "lives" with VIA Rail. I've taken it several times. Sadly missed.

 

[IndyLions]

The problem is the VIA station in Walkerville is a nice station in the wrong location...I can't remember for certain if the (most recent) old CP station is actually gone or has been repurposed.

If the Windsor CP station is the one built by Michigan Central in 1911 and last used by Amtrak in the 70’s - it was apparently destroyed by arson in 1996.

 

[jiml]

If the Windsor CP station is the one built by Michigan Central in 1911 and last used by Amtrak in the 70’s - it was apparently destroyed by arson in 1996.

"Oops. The thermite welder went off in the building."

 

[jis]

Notwithstanding what does or does not happen in Canada, Amtrak and the State of Michigan should work on upgrading one of the several Detroit - Toledo links to full speed passenger quality. I suspect that any through train from Chicago towards Toledo via Michigan will probably just run with Dearborn as the Detroit area station, due to the inconvenient track layout.

Now that is something that Stephen Gardner can do something about, as in help in getting funding for infrastructure upgradae and put in effect changes in timetable to run a train or two on that route, in collaboration with Michigan, or by himself, in case of an LD train.

 

[fdaley]

A different time and a different world but Via’s Atlantic has always intrigued me. The train went from Montreal to Halifax on a different route then the Ocean. It dipped into Maine and made 6 stops in the US picking up and dropping of passengers before turning north and re entering Canada. Ran until 1995. Apparently some cars were sealed when entering the US others weren’t.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_(train)

It was indeed a different era, pre-9/11, but the Atlantic was a good example of how customs/border issues could be resolved in a customer-friendly way if there was the political will in both countries to make it happen. When I lived in central Maine in the late '80s and early '90s, I used that train whenever I had the chance, probably 30 times, boarding/detraining in Maine in the middle of the night.

U.S. customs agents boarded at Jackman eastbound and at Vanceboro westbound and rode the train, interviewing en route anyone who'd be detraining in Maine. When the eastbound and westbound trains passed outside Greenville, the agents would change trains, with the Vanceboro agents returning east and the Jackman agents returning west to their home base. When on one trip I detrained at Jackman on the way home from Montreal, the agents interviewed me on the platform as they prepared to board the eastbound train. Canadian customs interviewed anyone who'd boarded in the U.S. at McAdam eastbound or Megantic westbound. The latter was a bit harsh, coming at about 3:30 a.m. But over all, it seems amazing now that the customs agencies devoted that much effort to accommodating a comparatively small number of international travelers, given that most of the train's ridership was strictly between Canadian points.

I suspect it may have helped that George Mitchell, the U.S. senator from Maine, was the majority leader for many of those years. And the Atlantic had powerful political advocates in Canada too, particularly Elsie Wayne, the longtime mayor of Saint John and later a Conservative MP.

 

[IndyLions]

To me, that’s how they should handle customs for intermediate stops on all international trains. Pre-clear as many passengers as possible before boarding at the origin, then handle those boarding at intermediate stops with an onboard agent. The agent would only need to board an hour or two before the crossing.

I understand the concerns post-911, but passports are now required to enter Canada. Between the technology embedded in the passport system - along with a human agent - a system like that should work.

Why hold an entire train of passengers for a lengthy delay at the border when you can clear everyone before you get there? And more importantly - why put up unnecessary barriers restricting commerce between the US and Canada?

 

[IndyLions]

The switch to CP needs to be made just west of Chatham, ON (stop prior to Windsor), which is currently a "diamond" crossing at grade. From there it's a straight shot to the tunnel, albeit through the CP yard in Windsor.
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/cp-rail-purchases-full-control-of-detroit-river-rail-tunnelThe problem is the VIA station in Walkerville is a nice station in the wrong location. They've spent money on it, so it's not likely going away - it's just not that useful if you're going to downtown Windsor or Detroit. I can't remember for certain if the (most recent) old CP station is actually gone or has been repurposed.

Here's a Google Earth look at the site of the original CP Station at Windsor, Ontario. It's wide open - and has more land available than the current VIA Windsor station (shown below) takes up...




I know it is not ideal - but in the short term why not use the existing station as the "domestic" station - and build a new one on the original site as an "international" station?

 

[railiner]

To me, that’s how they should handle customs for intermediate stops on all international trains. Pre-clear as many passengers as possible before boarding at the origin, then handle those boarding at intermediate stops with an onboard agent. The agent would only need to board an hour or two before the crossing.

I understand the concerns post-911, but passports are now required to enter Canada. Between the technology embedded in the passport system - along with a human agent - a system like that should work.

Why hold an entire train of passengers for a lengthy delay at the border when you can clear everyone before you get there? And more importantly - why put up unnecessary barriers restricting commerce between the US and Canada?

I believe they handled the Amtrak Niagara Rainbow (and its predecessors) in a similar manner.
Probably the same for the Thunder Bay-Winnipeg train...

I once rode Bangor & Aroostook’s bus between Bangor and Fort Kent, Me.
At Madawaska, we crossed the Saint John River, into and back out from Edmundston, NB. Between the border, and the bus terminal, a customs and immigration agent rode both ways to check on anyone getting off or on in Canada. The roundtrip took less than 10 minutes.

 

[niemi24s]

. . .Amtrak and the State of Michigan should work on upgrading one of the several Detroit - Toledo links to full speed passenger quality. I suspect that any through train from Chicago towards Toledo via Michigan will probably just run with Dearborn as the Detroit area station, due to the inconvenient track layout.

I'm wondering if upgrading any Dearborn (DER) - Toledo rail to higher speeds would be worth the cost.

• At present, according to OpenRailwayMap about 206 of the 271 mile Wolverine route from CHI to DER is shown rated at 110mph and some of the 59 mile route from DER to TOL is rated for 40mph. Mathematically the present overall speed for that 330 mile extended route works out to be 51.3mph.
• The current timetable speed for the LSL from CHI to TOL works out to be 53.0mph for that existing 234 mile route segment.

So even with the slower DER - TOL segment added to the Wolverine its average speed would only be 1.7mph slower than the LSL. And for the extended "Wolverine" to go 330 miles from CHI to DER to TOL in the same 4hr 25min as the present LSL, it's average speed would need to be 74.7mph. But that's impossible just by upgrading tack between DER and TOL because it already takes the Wolverine 30 minutes longer to get to DER. At least that's what this simple analysis tells me.

[Edited to correct for initially neglecting to consider the different time zones involved]
[Edited again to delete erroneous data]

 

[jiml]

206 of the 271 mile Wolverine route from CHI to DER is shown rated at 110mph and some of the 59 mile route from DER to TOL is rated for 40mph. Mathematically the present overall speed for that 330 mile route works out to be 44.4mph.

How did you arrive at 44.4mph? Even if the segments were equal in length the average speed is 75mph and the ratio is skewed in favor of the longer portion.

 

[niemi24s]

How did you arrive at 44.4mph?

Erroneously, by forgetting to correct for the time zone differences. My previous post now corrected. That boo-boo inflated all my elapsed times from CHI by 1 hour. Sorry.

Will delete the erroneous info tomorrow before edit time has expired - if I remember!

 

[jis]

I'm wondering if upgrading any Dearborn (DER) - Toledo rail to higher speeds would be worth the cost.

I was hoping that there would be several trains a day between eastern Michigan and Toledo (or eventually even Cleveland forming a rich Regional system), so the speed increase on that segment would be mostly for them. A through train from Chicago to the east via Michigan running a little faster would be an added bonus. I was frankly not suggesting that the speed be increased only for running one through train. I would not do it for just running a through train possibly through there in the middle of the night.

 

[niemi24s]

I was hoping that there would be several trains a day between eastern Michigan and Toledo (or eventually even Cleveland forming a rich Regional system), so the speed increase on that segment would be mostly for them.

OK, that would seem to make the upgrade expense worthwhile. Nothing's too fast for those Type A commuters!

 

[Willbridge]

OK, that would seem to make the upgrade expense worthwhile. Nothing's too fast for those Type A commuters!

This discussion is a good illustration of the value of combining LD and corridor trains on one improved route. When 2x daily service for LD trains is suggested I think instead of how many overlapping corridors are on that LD route. That is particularly true when the LD train falls into a corridor slot that is weak otherwise. Along with that there are some potential one-night trains that would open up connections for corridor trains. Shared costs and more choice for passengers.

 

[neroden]

Upgrades from Detroit-Toledo should be initially focused on keeping freight out of the way of passengers -- modernizing the signals, getting rid of any 10 mph restrictions, making sure there are enough sidings, things like that. It really shouldn't need much work to run trains. Just political will.

 

[toddinde]

View attachment 19756
Unless I’m missing something or this map is incorrect, the line between Detroit and Niagara Falls is there. It’s the CN Grimsby Sub in the latter half. I’m not sure what the original routing of the Rainbow was but there’s still infrastructure in place for a new service.

Is there any weight to the idea of an EU-style border between the US and Canada, where US/CA citizens can get through with little hassle? I bet Gardner would be able to try and work with his Congress contacts to gauge interest but I must admit it seems like an uphill battle to say the least.

It’s very correct. For some reason, this suggestion produced the all too common reaction in the railfan/rail advocacy community that it’s impossible. None of the problems identified are even difficult problems. As for customs clearance, that’s too easy. Pre-pandemic, hundreds of plane fly internationally everyday and customs is easily handled. Amtrak already has a plan for Montreal. It’s not a big deal. Yes, the tracks do exist as does the travel market. Yes, all the routes are slated for higher speed passenger rail so a through train would simply dovetail on the already proposed corridors. Pouring needless cold water on ideas is a real problem we have in the rail passenger advocacy community.

 

[toddinde]

This discussion is a good illustration of the value of combining LD and corridor trains on one improved route. When 2x daily service for LD trains is suggested I think instead of how many overlapping corridors are on that LD route. That is particularly true when the LD train falls into a corridor slot that is weak otherwise. Along with that there are some potential one-night trains that would open up connections for corridor trains. Shared costs and more choice for passengers.

Absolutely! Spot on!