Sunrail gets Grant to expand into Kissimmee

[Caesar La Rock]

Well this was no surprise.

KISSIMMEE – A collection of elected and government leaders signed a 10-foot-tall placard Monday signifying that $93 million in federal dollars soon will be spent in Osceola County expanding the SunRail commuter train as far south as Poinciana.

"Ridership will grow, spurring more demand," predicted Therese McMillan, the acting administrator of the Federal Transit Administration.

SunRail now stop just north of the Osceola line at Sand Lake Road, but construction should start in November on the four stations, plus new tracks for the 17-mile extension.

The new leg is supposed to be up and running by December 2017.

Read more:Source

 

[Palmetto]

I hope they fix the rail in Orlando. It was a slow, bumpy ride thru there on Sunday. Glad to hear that the service is expanding. From what I know, it's doing okay as far as ridership expectations go.

 

[jis]

It has actually beaten ridership projections so far.

This extension brings it within 55 miles of my home, and if and when they get to a clock face all day service it will become my preferred way of visiting the Orlando area, specially with the various linking bus and other services in place and predictable. Avoid the crazy traffic in Orlando, a reason that I try to avoid driving anywhere west of the airport.

It will be interesting to see how they rebuild the Kissimmee station with double track. Hopefully they will let the station building stay in place as is, and improve the parking lot.

Edit: Since posting the above I found a complete plan of the Kissimmee station. The building is going to be refurbished and maintained preserving its heritage look. The parking lots will be rebuilt. There is a proposal to build a parking structure at Kissimmee too.

 

[cirdan]

Will they need additional equipment for this, or does the present equipment cover this expansion?

 

[jis]

Will they need additional equipment for this, or does the present equipment cover this expansion?

Quoting from the CFCRT Transportation and Maintenance Operation Plan regarding SunRail Phase II South:

The Project scope includes two locomotives, three cab passenger cars and one coach passenger car, approximately 11.81 miles of additional second track that will be added to the existing 2.87 miles of double track, a new railway wayside signal and communication system, grade crossing upgrades, station platforms and canopies at all four stations, park and ride lots at four stations, and other elements necessary to achieve Project implementation. A proposed Vehicle Storage and Light Maintenance Facility (VSLMF) adjacent to the proposed Poinciana Station will serve as an end of the line fueling and layover facility for up to four train sets. Train wash services and heavy vehicle maintenance will continue to be provided at the existing Amtrak Auto Train Yard in Sanford.

So the additional rolling stock would appear to be "two locomotives, three cab passenger cars and one coach passenger car".

Further reading the same document shows:

The Vehicles for Phase 2 South were procured under options in the Phase 1 contracts and are on site at the Vehicle Storage and Maintenance Facility. FDOT exercised the option with Motive Power, Inc. (MPI) to purchase the two additional locomotives required for Phase 2 South on May 1, 2012. The Coaches and Cab Cars for Phase 1 were provided by Bombardier. FDOT exercised the option with Bombardier to purchase the one additional coach and three cab cars required for Phase 2 South on August 14, 2012.

 

[Rail Freak]

What's the difference between the Coach & Cab passenger cars?

 

[jis]

What's the difference between the Coach & Cab passenger cars?

Cab cars have a engineer's cab at one end with the requisite additional collision posts etc. So they are heavier and a few fewer seats than the Coach Cars.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I also heard that if ridership is high enough once operation of phase II begins, Sunrail is able to purchase the two DMU sets from Tri-Rail.

 

[XHRTSP]

How is $186 million the price tag for only 17 more miles on a route which already has pax rail service? I realize these things are expensive, but I need some help understanding the breakdown.

 

[MattW]

Has there been any chatter of extending service even just a few times a day as far as Tampa?

 

[jis]

No.

CFCRT (the guys who own and fund SunRail) is essentially a compact of Orange, Seminole, Volusia, Osceola Counties. They are not going to extend west of Osceola County until Polk and Hllsborough Counties decide to come to the table with large amounts of money, either from their own coffers, or convince Tallahassee to open up their coffers, enough to make CSX want to give trackage rights on their tracks between Auburndale and Tampa. Until then there will be no talk of going beyond Poinciana. And frankly I don;t foresee Polk county at least jumping in even if Hillsborough (bus) county decides to.

OTOH there has been chatter about extending to Daytona, and Volusia County has gone so far as to do some preliminary investigation along those lines.

 

[cirdan]

How is $186 million the price tag for only 17 more miles on a route which already has pax rail service? I realize these things are expensive, but I need some help understanding the breakdown.

Often its more expensive to go in and do things on a line that already has service as you can't suspend that service for the duration and so need to work to a stricter saftey regime, and the windows you can work in are short so a lot of logistics goes into preparing material and equipment, making sure the equipment is moved in and out quickly and correctly etc. If you have total posession of a site things can be far more relaxed.

 

[Anderson]

Jis roughly has it. The relevant authority owns tracks as far as Deland. Volusia County wants the line to go out towards Daytona (the main population center in the county as well as a substantial tourist destination). However, going to Deland would be easier and cheaper (building lots of new trackage out to Daytona won't be cheap, even if a few stations go in as part of the expansion).

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Problem is Deland doesn't have the ridership for Sunrail to go there at the moment. It's also the reason why the southern phase is being build and the airport phase is also being discussed.

Unless Jacksonville's First Coast Commuter Rail is built and extended South on the A-Line to Deland, I don't see Deland being a stop for Sunrail in the near future. The First Coast Commuter Rai, I haven't heard much from it either.

 

[jis]

Going to Daytona will involve building new track along the I-4 ROW from Sanford to I-95 like AAF is building along 528 ROW, and then building an essentially elevated track from I-4 to FEC along 440 ROW after vaulting all the EIS hurdles, specially for the piece from I-95 to downtown. Alternatively it could terminate at the Airport/Speedway area.

 

[Anderson]

Problem is Deland doesn't have the ridership for Sunrail to go there at the moment. It's also the reason why the southern phase is being build and the airport phase is also being discussed.

Unless Jacksonville's First Coast Commuter Rail is built and extended South on the A-Line to Deland, I don't see Deland being a stop for Sunrail in the near future. The First Coast Commuter Rai, I haven't heard much from it either.

This is a good point (the Jacksonville project, that is): I do suspect that an Orlando-Jacksonville corridor (whether a transfer is needed at DLD or not; ideally, of course, the two agencies would work out an inter-operation deal...but that often proves to be annoyingly difficult) would generate quite a bit of ridership up and down the line.

 

[MattW]

Would Jacksonville commuter rail even go all the way to Deland? I could see a Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa regional rail corridor, but for a Jacksonville-centered commuter rail, Deland is something like 110 miles with the only other city of note being Palatka at 60 or so miles from JAX.

 

[Anderson]

Would Jacksonville commuter rail even go all the way to Deland? I could see a Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa regional rail corridor, but for a Jacksonville-centered commuter rail, Deland is something like 110 miles with the only other city of note being Palatka at 60 or so miles from JAX.

It depends. If the city/state/region bought out the line (and if CSX was selling part of it I think they might insist on Jacksonville taking the whole line (to DLD) rather than leaving CSX with a random in-the-middle chunk without major intervening traffic. The other thing to note is that even if CSX didn't sell, they'd be pretty hard-pressed to demand onerous improvements in the middle of this track (a few sidings would be one thing, but a major overhaul like they often try to get seems almost implausible).

Probably your best bet in the region would be to, presuming FEC isn't interested in JAX-ORL or JAX/ORL-TPA traffic, seriously examine a few "Regional-type" trains between the two areas which would augment the commuter schedule but run as "express" trains within the commuter zones (e.g. skipping some of the stops).

 

[jphjaxfl]

Would Jacksonville commuter rail even go all the way to Deland? I could see a Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa regional rail corridor, but for a Jacksonville-centered commuter rail, Deland is something like 110 miles with the only other city of note being Palatka at 60 or so miles from JAX.

It depends. If the city/state/region bought out the line (and if CSX was selling part of it I think they might insist on Jacksonville taking the whole line (to DLD) rather than leaving CSX with a random in-the-middle chunk without major intervening traffic. The other thing to note is that even if CSX didn't sell, they'd be pretty hard-pressed to demand onerous improvements in the middle of this track (a few sidings would be one thing, but a major overhaul like they often try to get seems almost implausible).

Probably your best bet in the region would be to, presuming FEC isn't interested in JAX-ORL or JAX/ORL-TPA traffic, seriously examine a few "Regional-type" trains between the two areas which would augment the commuter schedule but run as "express" trains within the commuter zones (e.g. skipping some of the stops).

At this point, Green Cove Springs would be as far as Commuter Service from Jacksonville would go and this has been discussed, but no funding. Commuter Service on the FEC route has been discussed as far as Daytona, but no funding.

 

[jis]

Meanwhile around Tampa.....

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/csxs-offer-finally-opens-the-door-to-commuter-rail-in-tampa-bay/2248337

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Meanwhile around Tampa.....

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/csxs-offer-finally-opens-the-door-to-commuter-rail-in-tampa-bay/2248337

Well I'll be damned, CSX opened up the door to commuter rail. Who would of thought that would happen?

 

[Anderson]

Meanwhile around Tampa.....

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/csxs-offer-finally-opens-the-door-to-commuter-rail-in-tampa-bay/2248337

Well I'll be damned, CSX opened up the door to commuter rail. Who would of thought that would happen?

I'm not surprised...if CSX can hive off "non-core" lines to agencies while retaining trackage rights during off hours, they seem increasingly prone to doing so: They usually get a substantial one-time infusion of cash, they're relieved of at least some maintenance costs, and the impact on their operations tends to be negligible (if a freight local has to operate overnight, who cares?). And do remember that CSX was willing to sell to both Tri-Rail and SunRail.

 

[cirdan]

Meanwhile around Tampa.....

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/csxs-offer-finally-opens-the-door-to-commuter-rail-in-tampa-bay/2248337

Well I'll be damned, CSX opened up the door to commuter rail. Who would of thought that would happen?

I'm not surprised...if CSX can hive off "non-core" lines to agencies while retaining trackage rights during off hours, they seem increasingly prone to doing so: They usually get a substantial one-time infusion of cash, they're relieved of at least some maintenance costs, and the impact on their operations tends to be negligible (if a freight local has to operate overnight, who cares?). And do remember that CSX was willing to sell to both Tri-Rail and SunRail.

Although on the other hand you could argue the payment they get does not make a big difference on their overall balance. They lose the right to run their trains when they want (which can have cost implications for example in terms of optimizing equipment utilization). I don't know the small print but possibly the agreements also effectively caps future growth and expansion. Effectively CSX are losing control of assets.

I do think political considerations may have tipped the balance.

 

[Palmetto]

CSX is willing to sell their Homestead Sub to SFRTA as well, all the while retaining trackage rights. There's an interest in commuter rail in the Miami area, as the powers that be come to realize they can't pave their way to mobility.

 

[Eric S]

Meanwhile around Tampa.....

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/csxs-offer-finally-opens-the-door-to-commuter-rail-in-tampa-bay/2248337

Well I'll be damned, CSX opened up the door to commuter rail. Who would of thought that would happen?

I'm not surprised...if CSX can hive off "non-core" lines to agencies while retaining trackage rights during off hours, they seem increasingly prone to doing so: They usually get a substantial one-time infusion of cash, they're relieved of at least some maintenance costs, and the impact on their operations tends to be negligible (if a freight local has to operate overnight, who cares?). And do remember that CSX was willing to sell to both Tri-Rail and SunRail.

CSX has also done this quite a bit recently in the Boston area, selling lines to MBTA/MassDOT.