Sunset East: Good news for a change?

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why didn't Amtrak say this 5 years before after the hurricane. CSX gave Amtrak permission to run it east again back before you required PTC ATC cab signals etc. there was no reason not to restore it.
Because it chose to run something else instead. Afterall the books have to be balanced taking into account the total revenue and subsidy on one side and total burn rate on the other side. Now the tactics they used was somewhat, shall we say uncouth. But if you really want to know why they did what they did, the answer is to balance the books. :)

BTW, GML is exactly right. If Congress serves an unfunded mandate to run Sunset East look for the Cardinal will be down to weekly or one of the other weaker trains to be reduced to less than daily service. Such has happened many times in the history of Amtrak and won't be out of the ordinary for it to happen again. Even the Empire Builder at one time was cut down to thrice a week beyond the Twin Cities. So I would not wish for such an unfunded mandate to come down from Congress. They should find the pitiful little extra money needed to run the train instead.
 
Does anyone want to guess what the expected consist for the stub train will be? 2 coaches and a CCC? I wonder what will become of the planned "business class coach"...refit of an existing coach to feature 2+1 seating, or just a coach car as is, with the added perk of free meals?

Also...I agree...if the stub train becomes a reality, the CONO to Florida will probably be the easiest way to go about resuming svc east of New Orleans.
 
If Amtrak goes through with the concept of making the Sunset between San Antonio and New Orleans an all-coach (no sleeper) train, that will be more nails into the Sunset-east coffin. A 15 hour coach-only trip will lose whatever LD sleeper fares the Sunset currently has, meaning even less rider support to justify extending the train further east.
A no sleeper train between NOL-SAS will lead to no train between SAS-NOL.
 
Does anyone want to guess what the expected consist for the stub train will be? 2 coaches and a CCC? I wonder what will become of the planned "business class coach"...refit of an existing coach to feature 2+1 seating, or just a coach car as is, with the added perk of free meals?
Also...I agree...if the stub train becomes a reality, the CONO to Florida will probably be the easiest way to go about resuming svc east of New Orleans.
Someone needs to ask Amtrak who is going to ride business between SAS-HOU-NOL with Southwest Airlines and the very fast I-10 as alternatives.

So

the consist will be coach-CCC-empty coach.
 
Does anyone want to guess what the expected consist for the stub train will be? 2 coaches and a CCC? I wonder what will become of the planned "business class coach"...refit of an existing coach to feature 2+1 seating, or just a coach car as is, with the added perk of free meals?
Also...I agree...if the stub train becomes a reality, the CONO to Florida will probably be the easiest way to go about resuming svc east of New Orleans.
Someone needs to ask Amtrak who is going to ride business between SAS-HOU-NOL with Southwest Airlines and the very fast I-10 as alternatives.

So

the consist will be coach-CCC-empty coach.
Back to my original question....does anyone have info (rumor?) as to when the Sunset/Eagle change may occur? I have sleeper reservations NOL-LAX westbound on 5/10 and eastbound on 5/16. The prospect of 15 hour coach trips NOL/SAS sucks, especially with a cross-platform transfers with the Eagle at SAS in the middle of the night.

Any info would be appreciated, thanks.
 
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If the Capitol Limited were converted to single level and the equipment currently used for the Capitol Limited transferred to the Sunset Limited, would there be enough equipment for daily Florida to California service on the Sunset route?
From what was presented at Saturday's meeting in Chicago, it looks like excess equipment (i.e. sleepers) that will result from the Texas Eagle/Sunset changes will be used to add more sleepers to the Capital. Service may be resumed along the Sunset East (once Congress funds it), but the coast to coast Sunset of the past will probably never return.
I don't know where this rumor comes from, but there is no excess equipment coming from the Eagle/Sunset changes. A daily Eagle to LAX takes 7 sets of equipment plus the stub trains between SAS and NOL. Currently, each train entails 4 sets of equipment. That doesn't yield any surplus the way I count it. If anything the route will be short sleepers and coaches. Increased capacity comes from having daily trains.
It's not a rumor. It comes directly from the Amtrak marketing guy who spoke at Saturday's meeting in Chicago (Emmett, somebody, I don't have my notes with me). In talking about the committee that is studying each of the long distance routes over the next three years, he specifically said that there would be surplus sleepers created from the daily Texas EAgle/Sunset combo, primarily because the train sets would no longer be laying over for a day in New Orleans. The Capital Limited plans include adding additional sleepers, which he said would come from the

Texas Eagle/Sunset changes. I don't understand that details of the car shuffling, but this was part of Amtrak's official presentation and not some off the cuff remark regarding car shifts.
 
It's not a rumor. It comes directly from the Amtrak marketing guy who spoke at Saturday's meeting in Chicago (Emmett, somebody, I don't have my notes with me).
The would most likely be Emmett Fremaux, VP of Marketing and Product Management.

Emmett is the man largely responsible for upgrading the food service on Acela after it sank to new lows following the brake issues that sidelined Acela for several months. Emmett was also the driving force behind getting people to board trains between Stamford & NY to pick up trash and freshen the bathrooms during the middle of the runs. I suspect that he's also been one who has pushed hard for upgrading the food in the dining cars in the last couple of years and restoring better service to the CS.

He's without a doubt one of the good guys working for Amtrak.
 
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I'm still questioning as to whether or not it's wise to take the sleeping car from New Orleans. Even when the coaches aren't full, the lone sleeper on 1/2 is generally heavily occupied. I wish they could just operate NOL-SAS as 1 coach, 1 coach/baggage, 1 CCC, and 1 sleeper at the rear, which could be connected to the back of the Texas Eagle. They can make coach passengers do the cross platform transfer but keep it as a single ride for folks in the sleeper. Do they not have enough equipment to do this? Why just outright cancel the sleeper?
 
If the Capitol Limited were converted to single level and the equipment currently used for the Capitol Limited transferred to the Sunset Limited, would there be enough equipment for daily Florida to California service on the Sunset route?
From what was presented at Saturday's meeting in Chicago, it looks like excess equipment (i.e. sleepers) that will result from the Texas Eagle/Sunset changes will be used to add more sleepers to the Capital. Service may be resumed along the Sunset East (once Congress funds it), but the coast to coast Sunset of the past will probably never return.
I don't know where this rumor comes from, but there is no excess equipment coming from the Eagle/Sunset changes. A daily Eagle to LAX takes 7 sets of equipment plus the stub trains between SAS and NOL. Currently, each train entails 4 sets of equipment. That doesn't yield any surplus the way I count it. If anything the route will be short sleepers and coaches. Increased capacity comes from having daily trains.
It's not a rumor. It comes directly from the Amtrak marketing guy who spoke at Saturday's meeting in Chicago (Emmett, somebody, I don't have my notes with me). In talking about the committee that is studying each of the long distance routes over the next three years, he specifically said that there would be surplus sleepers created from the daily Texas EAgle/Sunset combo, primarily because the train sets would no longer be laying over for a day in New Orleans. The Capital Limited plans include adding additional sleepers, which he said would come from the

Texas Eagle/Sunset changes. I don't understand that details of the car shuffling, but this was part of Amtrak's official presentation and not some off the cuff remark regarding car shifts.
He either can't count or it's a smoke and mirrors thing. The Eagle when it gets to Chicago lays over for 24 hours so maybe that is what they are thinking of using. By the way, capital as in capital letters, Capitol as in the Capitol of a state or country. So it's the Capitol Limited. The Sunset equipment currently lays over for three days in NOL and a whole day or more in LAX. I presume they will turn the Eagle same day in LAX when the new schedule comes out. You can count it yourself. The Sunset is using four six car sets. Transition sleeper, sleeper, coach, coach, diner and ssl. The Eagle is basically the same except for a ccc in place of the diner. It may also have three coaches on some days. The thru sleeper may entail a couple more sleepers, but not more than that as it's only three times a week. For daily service you need seven sets plus some backups. Seven transition sleepers, 7+ sleepers, 14 - 21 coaches, 7 diners and 7 ssl's. Coach trains need at least two ccc's and 4-6 coaches. I think they might add a sleeper in SAS as the train has two from SAS to LAX. They might add a coach also. Who knows. Depends on demand maybe. You should have a spare ccc or two but you will need three extra diners. So you might have a spare sleeper and transition if they limit the train to one sleeper and one transition. I don't see any spare coaches. I don't know what Emmett is thinking, but I just don't see much equipment being freed up.

I have heard all the skeptcism about the coach trains, and certainly Amtrak has shorted Texas before in this way. Setting up a coach train to fail and then discontinuing it. On the other hand, daily service between SAS-HOU-NOL may actually pick up some passengers that would not currently use the spotty service running at odd hours. I know it's slow, but so is most of Amtrak's routes. If it's daily and run on time it might become a popular alternative to flying. The HOU to NOL is a designated HSR so they have some incentive to make it work. People in SAS will be able to schecule a day trip to Houston. That would be new. And Houston passengers would be able to schedule a trip to NOL any day of the week for a change. Who knows it might work. Among the rumors flying around is the desire to schedule a through coach and sleeper from NOL as soon as equipment becomes available. Living in Houston, I try to remain positive.
 
If something west of New Orleans goes Daily (Sunset, Stub, whatever) it could mean more people on the Crescent out of NOL for the Northeast...
 
If the Capitol Limited were converted to single level and the equipment currently used for the Capitol Limited transferred to the Sunset Limited, would there be enough equipment for daily Florida to California service on the Sunset route?
From what was presented at Saturday's meeting in Chicago, it looks like excess equipment (i.e. sleepers) that will result from the Texas Eagle/Sunset changes will be used to add more sleepers to the Capital. Service may be resumed along the Sunset East (once Congress funds it), but the coast to coast Sunset of the past will probably never return.
I don't know where this rumor comes from, but there is no excess equipment coming from the Eagle/Sunset changes. A daily Eagle to LAX takes 7 sets of equipment plus the stub trains between SAS and NOL. Currently, each train entails 4 sets of equipment. That doesn't yield any surplus the way I count it. If anything the route will be short sleepers and coaches. Increased capacity comes from having daily trains.
It's not a rumor. It comes directly from the Amtrak marketing guy who spoke at Saturday's meeting in Chicago (Emmett, somebody, I don't have my notes with me). In talking about the committee that is studying each of the long distance routes over the next three years, he specifically said that there would be surplus sleepers created from the daily Texas EAgle/Sunset combo, primarily because the train sets would no longer be laying over for a day in New Orleans. The Capital Limited plans include adding additional sleepers, which he said would come from the

Texas Eagle/Sunset changes. I don't understand that details of the car shuffling, but this was part of Amtrak's official presentation and not some off the cuff remark regarding car shifts.
He either can't count or it's a smoke and mirrors thing. The Eagle when it gets to Chicago lays over for 24 hours so maybe that is what they are thinking of using. By the way, capital as in capital letters, Capitol as in the Capitol of a state or country. So it's the Capitol Limited. The Sunset equipment currently lays over for three days in NOL and a whole day or more in LAX. I presume they will turn the Eagle same day in LAX when the new schedule comes out. You can count it yourself. The Sunset is using four six car sets. Transition sleeper, sleeper, coach, coach, diner and ssl. The Eagle is basically the same except for a ccc in place of the diner. It may also have three coaches on some days. The thru sleeper may entail a couple more sleepers, but not more than that as it's only three times a week. For daily service you need seven sets plus some backups. Seven transition sleepers, 7+ sleepers, 14 - 21 coaches, 7 diners and 7 ssl's. Coach trains need at least two ccc's and 4-6 coaches. I think they might add a sleeper in SAS as the train has two from SAS to LAX. They might add a coach also. Who knows. Depends on demand maybe. You should have a spare ccc or two but you will need three extra diners. So you might have a spare sleeper and transition if they limit the train to one sleeper and one transition. I don't see any spare coaches. I don't know what Emmett is thinking, but I just don't see much equipment being freed up.

I have heard all the skeptcism about the coach trains, and certainly Amtrak has shorted Texas before in this way. Setting up a coach train to fail and then discontinuing it. On the other hand, daily service between SAS-HOU-NOL may actually pick up some passengers that would not currently use the spotty service running at odd hours. I know it's slow, but so is most of Amtrak's routes. If it's daily and run on time it might become a popular alternative to flying. The HOU to NOL is a designated HSR so they have some incentive to make it work. People in SAS will be able to schecule a day trip to Houston. That would be new. And Houston passengers would be able to schedule a trip to NOL any day of the week for a change. Who knows it might work. Among the rumors flying around is the desire to schedule a through coach and sleeper from NOL as soon as equipment becomes available. Living in Houston, I try to remain positive.
The Eagle turns into the CONO in CHI. Super short layover there.
 
He either can't count or it's a smoke and mirrors thing. The Eagle when it gets to Chicago lays over for 24 hours so maybe that is what they are thinking of using. By the way, capital as in capital letters, Capitol as in the Capitol of a state or country. So it's the Capitol Limited.
Just FYI the word for the city in which the principal seat of government of a state or country is located is capital not Capitol. Capitol is the name of a building in Washington DC and the train is named after said building. It is also the name of a temple and a hill in Rome, and the name of various buildings and housing estates in various other places.

Actually the Capitol Building in Washington DC got its name from its namesake in Rome. According to Allen, William C. (2001). History of the United States Capitol - A Chronicle of Design, Construction, and Politics. Government Printing Office. http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/capitol/.:

Thomas Jefferson insisted the legislative building be called the "Capitol", rather than "Congress House". The word "Capitol" comes from Latin, meaning city on a hill and is associated with the Roman temple to Jupiter Optimus Maximus on Capitoline Hill.
Even as recently as in the 80's Ronald Reagan used the phrase "the city on a hill" to metaphorically refer to the United States. So one can surmise that this connection runs deep in the psyche of the nation.

Just in case one has difficulty believing me....

From Dictionary.com:

cap·i·tal  /ˈkæpɪtl/ [kap-i-tl] –noun

1. the city or town that is the official seat of government in a country, state, etc.: Tokyo is the capital of Japan.
Cap·i·tol /ˈkæpɪtl/ [kap-i-tl] –noun

1. the building in Washington, D.C., used by the Congress of the U.S. for its sessions.

2. (often lowercase) a building occupied by a state legislature.

3. the ancient temple of Jupiter at Rome, on the Capitoline.

4. the Capitoline.
So "Washington DC is the capital of the United States. The federal legislature of the United States transacts its business in the Capitol in Washington DC".
 
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He either can't count or it's a smoke and mirrors thing. The Eagle when it gets to Chicago lays over for 24 hours so maybe that is what they are thinking of using. By the way, capital as in capital letters, Capitol as in the Capitol of a state or country. So it's the Capitol Limited.
Just FYI the word for the city in which the principal seat of government of a state or country is located is capital not Capitol. Capitol is the name of a building in Washington DC and the train is named after said building. It is also the name of a temple and a hill in Rome, and the name of various buildings and housing estates in various other places.

Actually the Capitol Building in Washington DC got its name from its namesake in Rome. According to Allen, William C. (2001). History of the United States Capitol - A Chronicle of Design, Construction, and Politics. Government Printing Office. http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/capitol/.:

Thomas Jefferson insisted the legislative building be called the "Capitol", rather than "Congress House". The word "Capitol" comes from Latin, meaning city on a hill and is associated with the Roman temple to Jupiter Optimus Maximus on Capitoline Hill.
Even as recently as in the 80's Ronald Reagan used the phrase "the city on a hill" to metaphorically refer to the United States. So one can surmise that this connection runs deep in the psyche of the nation.

Just in case one has difficulty believing me....

From Dictionary.com:

cap·i·tal  /ˈkæpɪtl/ [kap-i-tl] –noun

1. the city or town that is the official seat of government in a country, state, etc.: Tokyo is the capital of Japan.
Cap·i·tol /ˈkæpɪtl/ [kap-i-tl] –noun

1. the building in Washington, D.C., used by the Congress of the U.S. for its sessions.

2. (often lowercase) a building occupied by a state legislature.

3. the ancient temple of Jupiter at Rome, on the Capitoline.

4. the Capitoline.
So "Washington DC is the capital of the United States. The federal legislature of the United States transacts its business in the Capitol in Washington DC".
In any case the name of the train is the 'Capitol Limited'.
 
I'm still questioning as to whether or not it's wise to take the sleeping car from New Orleans. Even when the coaches aren't full, the lone sleeper on 1/2 is generally heavily occupied. I wish they could just operate NOL-SAS as 1 coach, 1 coach/baggage, 1 CCC, and 1 sleeper at the rear, which could be connected to the back of the Texas Eagle. They can make coach passengers do the cross platform transfer but keep it as a single ride for folks in the sleeper. Do they not have enough equipment to do this? Why just outright cancel the sleeper?
They do have the equipment to run this train daily under the stipulations listed for the service, and if they manage to improve their equipment utilization slightly, would have just enough to operate the City of New Orleans to Miami. (Although, that would cancel the EBs fourth sleeper).

The cost of daily service over the entirety of the Texas Eagle and Sunset West routes is the sleeper from NOL to SAS. I think, personally, that this is a bargain. I would expect, however, that in the winter after the Texas Eagle hits LA daily, a through sleeper to NOL will be attempted on at least a tri-weekly basis as a seasonal experiment. If a through sleeper proves to be more profitable then a second or third sleeper on some other train, it will come to pass, taken from that other train.

Amtrak isn't stupid. They aren't going to eschew a through sleeper if putting that through sleeper LAX to NOL or even MIA proves to be a more profitable venture than it operating elsewhere. Amtrak has decided, no matter how, that this reorganization maximizes prospective service many times over. I agree. If a through sleeper makes sense, it will eventually happen. But first, let us have daily service along the entirety of the Sunset Route (Sunset East does not run on the Sunset Route, by the way) for the first time since the Espee cut it to tri-weekly in October of 1970.

Then we can work towards operations over the Gulf Coast (probably not as part of the Sunset), and once that runs all the way to Florida, it would then make sense to consider through sleepers and coaches, which, I suspect, will eventually come to pass.

I have often said publicly that a fair acid test between a realistic transit advocate and a doe-eyed railfan is their stance on the issue of this reorganization. A railfan wants the Sunset running tri-weekly. The transit advocate recognizes the overall benefit of running the trains daily being more important than the one seat ride, the sleeper over the day trip between SAS and NOL, and the historic interest value of preserving the famed Sunset Limited in a sort of time-capsule to times gone by.

Amtrak is, first and foremost (and for most!) a method of transportation. Most people riding the Sunset between stops in NOL and SAS or even points beyond, are riding for relatively short distances, and while the train is nicer than other options, they are doing it to go see grandma and grandpa, not to ride the train for the sheer hell of it. Those passengers, the very core of Amtrak's business, prefer to know the train is running daily as a concept to the romance of riding the Sunset Limited, a historic name giving the train some glamor, but of really no meaning to those core passengers.
 
I'm still questioning as to whether or not it's wise to take the sleeping car from New Orleans. Even when the coaches aren't full, the lone sleeper on 1/2 is generally heavily occupied. I wish they could just operate NOL-SAS as 1 coach, 1 coach/baggage, 1 CCC, and 1 sleeper at the rear, which could be connected to the back of the Texas Eagle. They can make coach passengers do the cross platform transfer but keep it as a single ride for folks in the sleeper. Do they not have enough equipment to do this? Why just outright cancel the sleeper?
They do have the equipment to run this train daily under the stipulations listed for the service, and if they manage to improve their equipment utilization slightly, would have just enough to operate the City of New Orleans to Miami. (Although, that would cancel the EBs fourth sleeper).

The cost of daily service over the entirety of the Texas Eagle and Sunset West routes is the sleeper from NOL to SAS. I think, personally, that this is a bargain. I would expect, however, that in the winter after the Texas Eagle hits LA daily, a through sleeper to NOL will be attempted on at least a tri-weekly basis as a seasonal experiment. If a through sleeper proves to be more profitable then a second or third sleeper on some other train, it will come to pass, taken from that other train.

Amtrak isn't stupid. They aren't going to eschew a through sleeper if putting that through sleeper LAX to NOL or even MIA proves to be a more profitable venture than it operating elsewhere. Amtrak has decided, no matter how, that this reorganization maximizes prospective service many times over. I agree. If a through sleeper makes sense, it will eventually happen. But first, let us have daily service along the entirety of the Sunset Route (Sunset East does not run on the Sunset Route, by the way) for the first time since the Espee cut it to tri-weekly in October of 1970.

Then we can work towards operations over the Gulf Coast (probably not as part of the Sunset), and once that runs all the way to Florida, it would then make sense to consider through sleepers and coaches, which, I suspect, will eventually come to pass.

I have often said publicly that a fair acid test between a realistic transit advocate and a doe-eyed railfan is their stance on the issue of this reorganization. A railfan wants the Sunset running tri-weekly. The transit advocate recognizes the overall benefit of running the trains daily being more important than the one seat ride, the sleeper over the day trip between SAS and NOL, and the historic interest value of preserving the famed Sunset Limited in a sort of time-capsule to times gone by.

Amtrak is, first and foremost (and for most!) a method of transportation. Most people riding the Sunset between stops in NOL and SAS or even points beyond, are riding for relatively short distances, and while the train is nicer than other options, they are doing it to go see grandma and grandpa, not to ride the train for the sheer hell of it. Those passengers, the very core of Amtrak's business, prefer to know the train is running daily as a concept to the romance of riding the Sunset Limited, a historic name giving the train some glamor, but of really no meaning to those core passengers.
I agree with much of that, but what I proposed is far from unrealistic. Also I forgot to add Houston in my previous email. If run daily, there's no reason to assume that between Houston and New Orleans that a sleeping car couldn't be filled, and filled profitably, assuming good yield management practices are in place. I'm all for the option that provides the consumer with the most benefits. Without question, daily service is HUGE. But at the same time, the route will no longer be a viable option for people "going the distance", or "most of the distance", who previously used a sleeping car. Getting off in SAS at 11:00pm heading west or at around 6:30am heading east and having to wait either on the connecting train or in the station for over an hour isn't the end of the world, but it is certainly a huge inconvenience. In any case, it sounds like the decision has been made. I hope and pray that this will be a success....but considering how Amtrak has handled its affairs in the Gulf South over the past five years, you can see how one could have some doubts.

Also, this part of your post..."I have often said publicly that a fair acid test between a realistic transit advocate and a doe-eyed railfan is their stance on the issue of this reorganization. A railfan wants the Sunset running tri-weekly. The transit advocate recognizes the overall benefit of running the trains daily being more important than the one seat ride, the sleeper over the day trip between SAS and NOL, and the historic interest value of preserving the famed Sunset Limited in a sort of time-capsule to times gone by."...is a nice opinion, but I don't see it quite as cut and dry as that. To each his own. :)
 
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To be completely frank, and pointed, I've seen so many tons of people changing trains in Chicago, I can't imagine a one-seat ride being a big deal. Alan's commentary about it is so invalid in my mind, I don't know where to begin. One is that the prospect of changing trains in a station like that of Washington D.C. is daunting enough to scare anyone not comfortable with navigating disorganized transit centers.

But in any case, if people want to go from LAX to NOL, and do not like taking the plane (lets be realistic, here, NativeSon, if you like taking the plane, you are using it between those too points!) they have two choices. A god-knows-how-many connection ride on the dog without any amenities, or riding the train to SAS and changing once to get to NOL. I think they'd do the latter. I don't think it will cut ridership much at all.

Edit, not from that market. I do envision a ridership cut between, lets say, Houston and Del Rio from certain people who don't want to change for a relatively short trip. But I think the people leaving for that reason will be fighting a stream of those willing to chose Amtrak because it is now predictably daily and probably more convenient as a schedule.
 
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To be completely frank, and pointed, I've seen so many tons of people changing trains in Chicago, I can't imagine a one-seat ride being a big deal. Alan's commentary about it is so invalid in my mind, I don't know where to begin. One is that the prospect of changing trains in a station like that of Washington D.C. is daunting enough to scare anyone not comfortable with navigating disorganized transit centers.
But in any case, if people want to go from LAX to NOL, and do not like taking the plane (lets be realistic, here, NativeSon, if you like taking the plane, you are using it between those too points!) they have two choices. A god-knows-how-many connection ride on the dog without any amenities, or riding the train to SAS and changing once to get to NOL. I think they'd do the latter. I don't think it will cut ridership much at all.
It probably won't be a big deal for a lot of people...I think it will for the elderly and those traveling with kids...but I mean I'd do it. No one joins me on my train trips anyway. :lol: They will, however, have to market this well and promote the daily service aspect of it.
 
Also, this part of your post..."I have often said publicly that a fair acid test between a realistic transit advocate and a doe-eyed railfan is their stance on the issue of this reorganization. A railfan wants the Sunset running tri-weekly. The transit advocate recognizes the overall benefit of running the trains daily being more important than the one seat ride, the sleeper over the day trip between SAS and NOL, and the historic interest value of preserving the famed Sunset Limited in a sort of time-capsule to times gone by."...is a nice opinion, but I don't see it quite as cut and dry as that. To each his own. :)
No, its not that cut and dry. I admit that publicly, too. But I, personally, have yet to see an example of the test not working on people whom I have already figured their stance on one side or the other.

Obviously, I am both a transit advocate and a rail fan. In terms of what I'd like to ride, I'm more of a rail-fan, I admit it. I will sincerely be sad that I will likely never get the chance to ride the Sunset Limited as it originally ran. But I can't let that feeling get in my way of my firm conviction that what we need is more transit, usable transit that makes sense. When it comes to what I want Amtrak to do, as is probably self-evident, I want to see them running trains that make sense both as transit and as financially sensible concepts.

I'd love, LOVE, to ride a trans-continental dome-liner decked out like VIA's Canadian across our beautiful country. But I also know that if Amtrak were to embark on an endeavor to run such a train, it would, within a short time, sound off Amtrak's death-knell, or at least that of the more sensible LD trains. If some entity were to attempt to contract with Amtrak to run such a train, sign me up to ride it, man.

I've spent enough time around the politics of running these things to know how things work to a decent degree. If a political opponent wants to get in, one way they can do so is find a poster child for how bad the previous guys are doing. Something as fiscally silly as a flagship train as described is a perfect item to select as such a poster child.

I want to put the long-term future of our LD trains, important transit links in this country for certain people, on solid ground. And I can't conceivably imagine doing that with something such as those dome-liners... or a tri-weekly Sunset Limited from LAX to NOL. Which was a flawed concept envisioned by an old and senile man. Who did a lot of good for Amtrak in his early years of service... but...
 
It's not a rumor. It comes directly from the Amtrak marketing guy who spoke at Saturday's meeting in Chicago (Emmett, somebody, I don't have my notes with me).
The would most likely be Emmett Fremaux, VP of Marketing and Product Management.

Emmett is the man largely responsible for upgrading the food service on Acela after it sank to new lows following the brake issues that sidelined Acela for several months. Emmett was also the driving force behind getting people to board trains between Stamford & NY to pick up trash and freshen the bathrooms during the middle of the runs. I suspect that he's also been one who has pushed hard for upgrading the food in the dining cars in the last couple of years and restoring better service to the CS.

He's without a doubt one of the good guys working for Amtrak.
OK, I'm home now. Right, Alan, the long distance presenter was Fremaux. Presenting the fleet strategy plan was Chris Jagodzinski, senior director, system operations. Amtrak Police Chief John O'Connor presented the photo policy part of the program.

Also on hand were Tom Carper, of Macomb, IL., chairman of the Amtrak board, and a variety of people from the Amtrak public relations, government relations and Chicago area operations departments.

Jim Wrinn, editor of Trains, was there along with Kevin Keefe, publisher; Matt Van Hattem, senior editor; and Andy Cummings, associate editor.
 
I think they'd do the latter. I don't think it will cut ridership much at all.
But I think the people leaving for that reason will be fighting a stream of those willing to chose Amtrak because it is now predictably daily and probably more convenient as a schedule.
Well GML that is what I am thinking. The three times a week service through Houston in the wee hours of the morning(or late at night) hardly generates much local traffic. Once these daily trains are running reliably and at decent hours it should cause a pickup in intrastate traffic. We will finally have daily service between SAS and HOU and between HOU and NOL as well as the whole distance and points in between, something we have not had for at least 40 years. Many more people will choose to ride simply because it is a reliable alternate to flying and it is convenient. I don't see the transfer in SAS as being a burden as the proposal is for an across the platform transfer, not a wait for hours in the station. Even the elderly can just have a redcap transfer their baggage for them. It should not be a big deal. Eastbound the connecting train will be waiting there when the Eagle gets in so even early in the morning it should not be a big inconvenience. Westbound passengers should be able to stay on the train if the Eagle happens to be a little late. Of course if the Eagle experiences one of it's all too frequent catastrophic delays then I would assume the connecting passengers would have to detrain. Personally I am keeping positive that this will all work out as planned.
 
I think they'd do the latter. I don't think it will cut ridership much at all.
But I think the people leaving for that reason will be fighting a stream of those willing to chose Amtrak because it is now predictably daily and probably more convenient as a schedule.
Well GML that is what I am thinking. The three times a week service through Houston in the wee hours of the morning(or late at night) hardly generates much local traffic. Once these daily trains are running reliably and at decent hours it should cause a pickup in intrastate traffic. We will finally have daily service between SAS and HOU and between HOU and NOL as well as the whole distance and points in between, something we have not had for at least 40 years. Many more people will choose to ride simply because it is a reliable alternate to flying and it is convenient. I don't see the transfer in SAS as being a burden as the proposal is for an across the platform transfer, not a wait for hours in the station. Even the elderly can just have a redcap transfer their baggage for them. It should not be a big deal. Eastbound the connecting train will be waiting there when the Eagle gets in so even early in the morning it should not be a big inconvenience. Westbound passengers should be able to stay on the train if the Eagle happens to be a little late. Of course if the Eagle experiences one of it's all too frequent catastrophic delays then I would assume the connecting passengers would have to detrain. Personally I am keeping positive that this will all work out as planned.
When is the stub train supposed to arrive and depart SAS, and the same for the Eagle? I had thought that there would be an overnight stay in SAS to connect at least in one direction.
 
When is the stub train supposed to arrive and depart SAS, and the same for the Eagle? I had thought that there would be an overnight stay in SAS to connect at least in one direction.
No, not at all. They were planning on direct cross-platform transfer, with through cars a possibility as equipment allowed.
 
To be completely frank, and pointed, I've seen so many tons of people changing trains in Chicago, I can't imagine a one-seat ride being a big deal. Alan's commentary about it is so invalid in my mind, I don't know where to begin.
With respect, you don't have to begin any where. You may not like it, but the data is there to support it. Ridership on the Cardinal soared when the transfer in DC was eliminated, and that was despite the down-grade in service. And transfers remain one of the top issues for people having to ride the trains.

Additionally while you're correct that many people do make the transfer in Chicago, you're missing part of the equation. Most, although not all I admit, are transferring trains within the same class of accommodation. That will not be possible with the Sunset plan. Someone who has been faithfully riding the Sunset east of San Antonio will no longer have that option with this plan.

Unless riders see some benefit to them, like reduced travel times or cheaper fares, they only tolerate transfers when given no other choice. Daily service isn't a benefit to someone who used to be able to sit in a dining car for dinner and then retire to their sleeper. On the other hand, the transfer at Secaucus Junction works because commuters see a reduced travel time, not to mention that they were still facing a transfer at Hoboken anyhow. So that was an easy transfer to sell. This isn't. Too many people are going to be seeing this as making their lives harder.

Convenient across the platform transfers, assuming that they ever happen in San Antonio (they don't happen elsewhere on Amtrak), aren't going to sell the current riders. Shorter run times might help some; however the biggest amounts of padding that will be removed are west of San Antonio and will have minimal impact on the stub train.

Yes daily service will help things, but I for one continue to fear that for every rider gained by that, we may lose one because of the other changes.

And even more now following the comments at the Town Hall meeting, where for the first time Amtrak publicly seemed to be stating that States would have to band together for new services (before this it was just a new service in one state that they wanted state funding), that within a few years the stub train will be on the chopping block unless Texas and Louisiana step up to fund the loss. The stub train is going to look just like every other state funded train and I continue to fear that is the ultimate plan even more so now.

Next as someone who does advocate for trains all over, the news forums are filled with posts from me, I don't think that I'm seeing this through Railfan eyes. I've seen no numbers from Amtrak to support any of the conclusions. And what numbers can be found seem to indicate that the loss of ridership east of San Antonio could be significant, despite gains from more riders attracted to the daily service. And without a doubt, revenue will plummet. It cannot do otherwise with the loss of the sleeper revenue and the lower coach prices that will have to be implemented to compensate people for the inconvenience of the San Antonio shuffle.

And now Emmett Fremaux has publicly stated that Amtrak will free up cars from this change, which brings me right back to the fact that Amtrak could accomplish daily running of the Sunset without needing to go to this Stub train plan if the couple in some of the wreck repairs.

Finally let me also remind you that this plan grew out of a suggestion from a bunch of LA Railfans with dreams of having daily service in California. They don't care a whit about what happens in Texas and Louisiana. They just want daily service for their state.
 
Alan, the Cardinal varies in several respects (run time of the short leg, the size of the station its transfering at, and so on) that I don't consider it more then, perhaps, back up support for your point. Pretending the Cardinal doesn't exist, what other information do you demonstrably have to prove your perspective? I haven't heard anything than conjectures, opinions, and speculation on your part on this subject.

Do you have any data to back this up besides the Cardinal?
 
Convenient across the platform transfers, assuming that they ever happen in San Antonio (they don't happen elsewhere on Amtrak), aren't going to sell the current riders.
(Emphasis added)

Alan, what about the Capitol Limited-to-Pennsylvanian (and vice versa) in Pittsburgh, and the New Haven transfers between the shuttles and the Northeast Regional?

I've found the former deadly, and the latter quite reasonable.
 
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