Sunset East Predictions

[Todd]

With Amtrak instructed by Congress to study and plan a restoration of service between New Orleans and Sanford, what do you predict will be the outcome of the study? Will it be a separate overnight train, the former Sunset Limited, or something else? I personally believe that the former service will be reinstated because there were so many passengers that went through NO from the West on the Sunset.

 

[had8ley]

My prediction is status quo; the Sunset will originate and terminate at NOL. You MIGHT see a day train between NOL and JAX but I think it's going to take a lot of arm twisting and lobbying.

 

[Rail Freak]

My prediction is status quo; the Sunset will originate and terminate at NOL. You MIGHT see a day train between NOL and JAX but I think it's going to take a lot of arm twisting and lobbying.

I truly have respect & confidence in your posts! With that said, why do you think that is?

RF

 

[had8ley]

My prediction is status quo; the Sunset will originate and terminate at NOL. You MIGHT see a day train between NOL and JAX but I think it's going to take a lot of arm twisting and lobbying.

I truly have respect & confidence in your posts! With that said, why do you think that is?

RF

The three plus years that Amtrak has used the lack of a Mobile station for pax use then they dump pax track side in Beaumont. Also, the OTP was quite horrible until an ex-UP manager, and now an ex-Amtrak president, put the heat on his former employer (the UP-one of many). There are some totally irritated legislators that need to be appeased. In order to do that they'll run a daily to Jacksonville. Beyond that I wouldn't want to guess as to time or consist. Just one man's opinion; there are many more out there.

 

[SUNSETLIMITED01]

I think it's going to be the Sunset itself. Don't know if they will go daily with it though. I mean it took Amtrak almost 30 years to make the California Zephyr a daily train, but compare that to the Auto Train, which took only a year to become daily.

 

[WICT106]

Part of the "improvement" in the timekeeping of the Sunset is because of the UP's completion of the double tracking west of large segments of the Sunset Route. I think that any funding should also be tied to improvements in the average speed of the train, reducing slow segments, etc. Also connection with both Jacksonville and New Orleans, and more-than-once-per-day-each-way service. I think it might be good to operate it as a separate train east of New Orleans. An additional issue that must be addressed is punctuality. Many people, when some say "Amtrak" think of trains which are never on time. If we want to garner more support for trains and passenger rail service, the trains have to be on time.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

amtrak will drag there feet for as long as they can and stall and find every loop hole possible NOT to restore the sunset.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I have no idea what it will be based on the way Amtrak does things. The ideal train would be a New Orleans-Jacksonville overnight daily train on a schedule similar to the Gulf Wind, departing New Orleans around 5-6PM and arriving Jacksonville 9-10AM and departing Jacksonville 5-6PM and arriving New Orleans 8-9AM (time change). They should adjust the Sunset to connect eastbound and it would connect westbound. It would connect with the City of New Orleans. It would provide decent calling times for the Gulf Coast cities from New Orleans to Mobile and vv. They could run CNO equipment through because there should be enough time to service in New Orleans with the current 3:30PM arrival and 2:45PM departure of the CNO which seems to run on time. The CNO equipment now sits in New Orleans for almost 24 hours. I live in Jacksonville and have talked to a number of non railfan people who would readily use a train on a schedule like this if it ran close to the schedule and was dependable.

 

[had8ley]

It's almost laughable about how much credence Amtrak puts into on time departures. Managers have lost their jobs for lack of on time departure performance. But then, when all eyes are watching, they'll let a host RR stuff an Amtrak train into a siding for two or three hours. You might only have 200 people on board but those 200 will tell at least 200 more people about what "Amtrak" did to them. Of course, Amtrak will scream, "We didn't do it" but the real question needs to be "Just what did Amtrak do about it?" Maybe then the stigma of lateness for Amtrak will melt away.

 

[jis]

With Amtrak instructed by Congress to study and plan a restoration of service between New Orleans and Sanford, what do you predict will be the outcome of the study?

There will be a report containing the results of the study. It will most likely spell out how much money is needed to restore service. If Congress comes up with the resources that are asked for in the report, there would be no remaining reason to not start some sort of service between NOL and JAX. So then they will take a year or two to put everything together and start whatever service they decided on. If Congress does not come up with funds, maybe they will repeat the study and report cycle another time.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I mean it took Amtrak almost 30 years to make the California Zephyr a daily train, but compare that to the Auto Train, which took only a year to become daily.

It did? I mean, I admit that it was called the City of San Francisco and then the San Francisco Zephyr, and ran on slightly different trackage, but the basic train was daily by June 11th, 1972. Which is not 30 years- its a mere 13 months and 11 days. It would mostly remain daily its entire operating life. There was a brief period between very late '95 or early '96, and the discontinuance of the Desert Wind and Pioneer on December 8th, 1997 when it ran 4 times a week. And it ran tri-weekly prior to the june 11th 1972 schedule- although the full details escape me.

 

[Montanan]

In pre-Amtrak years, both the California Zephyr and the City of San Francisco ran daily until early 1970, with the City was cut to tri-weekly and the Zephyr discontinued west of Salt Lake. The Zephyr was cut to tri-weekly east of Salt Lake at that time, too, but the train's western terminus was extended up to Ogden so passengers could connect there with the City. That left the Santa Fe's San Francisco Chief as the only daily train between Chicago and the Bay Area, but that train was discontinued with the advent of Amtrak.

So there was only about a year when Chicago-Bay area service was tri-weekly, though as noted above there was at least one brief period in the mid-90s when the service ran four days a week. in 1971-72 the train ran daily east of Denver and tri-weekly west of there, so there's always been daily service between Chicago and Denver.

 

[henryj]

With Amtrak instructed by Congress to study and plan a restoration of service between New Orleans and Sanford, what do you predict will be the outcome of the study? Will it be a separate overnight train, the former Sunset Limited, or something else? I personally believe that the former service will be reinstated because there were so many passengers that went through NO from the West on the Sunset.

This idea of a 'Day' train continually comes up on here. A 'day' train is an impossibility as the scheduled time between NO and Jacksonville was 17 hours to cover 617 miles and neither the timing or the track has improved enough to do it any faster. In addition it took an additional 3 1/2 hours to get to Orlando, just 147 miles farther. Finally, using Jacksonville as the terminus would render the train almost useless as Orlando is the destination for most of the passengers with up to 50 million tourist a year visiting there. You might get a cheapo coach train, but it most certainly will not be a 'Day' train, more like an overnight Greyhound bus on rails.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Finally, using Jacksonville as the terminus would render the train almost useless as Orlando is the destination for most of the passengers

True to a point, but if you time it right (overnight), you can connect with 91 and/or 97 to get them to Orlando or all the way to Miami, and same-day connections northbound on 92/98. And time the return trip right and 92 and/or 98 can get you pax from Miami/ORL, etc., to the train headed for NOL, also overnight

91/97 go thru Jax early in the morning; 98 and 92 go through in late afternoon to late evening. And JAX has a good-sized station. Also, there were quite a few transferring pax from Sunset to either 92 or 98 when it was running. We were AT Jax station several times to see that. In fact, there were more than a few times when they held up the Northbound Silver Service train so that the Sunset pax could get there and make the connection. I remember one day when 92 and 98 BOTH arrived fairly late, Sunset arrived and the various conductors and attendants had a heck of a time with Sunset pax getting on the wrong northbound Silver train (92 and 98 run very different routes north of SAV), and had to go retrieve them because somebody was a bit lax in looking at tickets.

 

[henryj]

Finally, using Jacksonville as the terminus would render the train almost useless as Orlando is the destination for most of the passengers

True to a point, but if you time it right (overnight), you can connect with 91 and/or 97 to get them to Orlando or all the way to Miami, and same-day connections northbound on 92/98. And time the return trip right and 92 and/or 98 can get you pax from Miami/ORL, etc., to the train headed for NOL, also overnight

91/97 go thru Jax early in the morning; 98 and 92 go through in late afternoon to late evening. And JAX has a good-sized station. Also, there were quite a few transferring pax from Sunset to either 92 or 98 when it was running. We were AT Jax station several times to see that. In fact, there were more than a few times when they held up the Northbound Silver Service train so that the Sunset pax could get there and make the connection. I remember one day when 92 and 98 BOTH arrived fairly late, Sunset arrived and the various conductors and attendants had a heck of a time with Sunset pax getting on the wrong northbound Silver train (92 and 98 run very different routes north of SAV), and had to go retrieve them because somebody was a bit lax in looking at tickets.

All this talk about bringing back this train from NO to Fl made me check out the map. I think this is a case of where the tracks just don't go there. The trip is excruciatingly slow taking over 20 hours to Orlando for instance. A much better option is to just offer a thruway bus with more relaxed seating than the usual Greyhound. I-10 to Jacksonville is only 546 miles or a little over 8 hours and Orlando is 639 miles via I-10 and I-75 and takes only a little over 9 hours. I have driven it in 10 with stops for gas and food. No so called day train is going to compete with those times ever on this route without relocating the tracks accross Mobile Bay and billions of dollars for better signaling and track. It's a waste of money. Anyone wanting to continue on off the SSL from NO to Florida could just take the bus connection and be much happier. You could run separate buses to Jacksonville and Orlando and if they wanted to go south to Miami get on the train over there. Florida is thinking about instuting corridor service between Jacksonville and Miami using the FEC tracks along the coast. Hey, I love trains too, but this rail connection between NO and Florida is just a non-starter.

 

[MattW]

Finally, using Jacksonville as the terminus would render the train almost useless as Orlando is the destination for most of the passengers

True to a point, but if you time it right (overnight), you can connect with 91 and/or 97 to get them to Orlando or all the way to Miami, and same-day connections northbound on 92/98. And time the return trip right and 92 and/or 98 can get you pax from Miami/ORL, etc., to the train headed for NOL, also overnight

91/97 go thru Jax early in the morning; 98 and 92 go through in late afternoon to late evening. And JAX has a good-sized station. Also, there were quite a few transferring pax from Sunset to either 92 or 98 when it was running. We were AT Jax station several times to see that. In fact, there were more than a few times when they held up the Northbound Silver Service train so that the Sunset pax could get there and make the connection. I remember one day when 92 and 98 BOTH arrived fairly late, Sunset arrived and the various conductors and attendants had a heck of a time with Sunset pax getting on the wrong northbound Silver train (92 and 98 run very different routes north of SAV), and had to go retrieve them because somebody was a bit lax in looking at tickets.

All this talk about bringing back this train from NO to Fl made me check out the map. I think this is a case of where the tracks just don't go there. The trip is excruciatingly slow taking over 20 hours to Orlando for instance. A much better option is to just offer a thruway bus with more relaxed seating than the usual Greyhound. I-10 to Jacksonville is only 546 miles or a little over 8 hours and Orlando is 639 miles via I-10 and I-75 and takes only a little over 9 hours. I have driven it in 10 with stops for gas and food. No so called day train is going to compete with those times ever on this route without relocating the tracks accross Mobile Bay and billions of dollars for better signaling and track. It's a waste of money. Anyone wanting to continue on off the SSL from NO to Florida could just take the bus connection and be much happier. You could run separate buses to Jacksonville and Orlando and if they wanted to go south to Miami get on the train over there. Florida is thinking about instuting corridor service between Jacksonville and Miami using the FEC tracks along the coast. Hey, I love trains too, but this rail connection between NO and Florida is just a non-starter.

Which is why I think an ATL-JAX or ATL-ORL is better. You can capture both the West-FL folks and the ATL-FL folks. Granted, faster with a direct bus NOL-JAX/ORL but it's a day on the Crescent then a day down to FL, or overnight to FL if you time the Crescent-FL Train connection right (leaves ATL around 22:00 perhaps?).

 

[jphjaxfl]

The potential passengers for a Jacksonville-NewOrleans train that I have surveyed would not ride a bus from Jacksonville to New Orleans or vv. They can ride a Greyhound Bus now, but would chose flying over a bus. The rail lines between Atlanta and Jacksonville need significant upgrades to be passenger train ready. There have been no Atlanta-Jacksonville passenger trains for over 40 years. The CSX line from New Orleans to Mobile was rebuilt after Katrina and is in best shape its been in for years. If a daily train were operated on an over night schedule connecting with the Silver Service at Jacksonville and City of New Orleans and Sunset in New Orleans, there would be lots of connecting passengers traveling to Florida Cities of Tallahassee and Pensacola which are both cities of significant size with Universities.

 

[henryj]

The potential passengers for a Jacksonville-NewOrleans train that I have surveyed would not ride a bus from Jacksonville to New Orleans or vv. They can ride a Greyhound Bus now, but would chose flying over a bus.

They might also choose to fly rather than spend 20 hours on a train ride that should only take 10.

 

[George Harris]

Some people seem to be laboring under the misconception that the Sunset west of New Orleans is a fast train. It is not.

Total distance: 1995 miles

Scheduled Time: 48 hours. 15 minutes westbound, 47 hours 45 minutes eastbound

Average speed: 41.35 mph westbound, 41.78 mph eastbound

There are of course some long stops in here. The long stops shown in the schedule add up to 4 hours 57 minutes westbound and 4 hour 44 minutes eastbound. Even if these become zero, an impossibility, the run time is still around 43 hours. 43 hours for 1995 miles gives an average of 46.4 mph. in other words, still well under 50 mph in the land of 70 mph to 80 mph driving.

Let’s break this run down by major segments to see where the slower and faster parts are, leaving out the long stops, other than the 10 minutes at Maricopa:

Los Angeles – Tucson: 502 miles, 10 hours 05 minutes in both directions.

Average speed: 49.78 mph, both directions.

There at least an hour of padding in this section, so, at 9 hours the average is 55.8 mph.

Tucson – El Paso: 315 miles, 6 hours 25 minutes westbound, 5 hours 56 minutes eastbound. Average speeds, 49.09 mph westbound and 53.09 mph eastbound. This segment is now all double track, so it is not going to get any better than this, at least not on UP’s dime.

El Paso – San Antonio: 605 miles, 12 hour 30 minutes westbound, 12 hour 25 minutes eastbound.

Average speed: 48.40 westbound and 48.72 mph eastbound

San Antonio – Houston: 210 miles: 5 hours 10 minutes westbound, 4 hours 45 minutes eastbound.

Average speed: 40.65 westbound and 44.21 mph eastbound

Houston – New Orleans: 363 miles: 9 hours 18 minutes westbound, 9 hours 45 minutes eastbound.

Average speed: 39.03 westbound and 37.23 mph eastbound

These last couple segments help explain why the train tends to be lighter in passenger loads on the east end. Simply put, why would ride through the swamps of southern Louisiana for 9 hours between points that can be driven in 5 to 6 hours.

There is no point whatsoever in getting all exercised about the speed potential between New Orleans and Jacksonville until the speed west thereof, at least between New Orleans and San Antonio ca get up to somewhere in the vicinity of 50 mph or better.

If the whole run could average just 50 mph, the end to end time could be brought down to around 40 hours, which I believe is somewhere in the vicinity of the schedule actually operated in about 1950.

 

[AlanB]

Tucson – El Paso: 315 miles, 6 hours 25 minutes westbound, 5 hours 56 minutes eastbound. Average speeds, 49.09 mph westbound and 53.09 mph eastbound. This segment is now all double track, so it is not going to get any better than this, at least not on UP’s dime.

Well let's not forget that the running times haven't been adjusted since the completion of the double tracking. It may be possible to wring some time out of the schedule here. That hasn't been done however, either because Amtrak wants the extra time for make-up time or because UP doesn't want to be bothered.

But otherwise, I agree with your assesment.

 

[jphjaxfl]

They might also choose to fly rather than spend 20 hours on a train ride that should only take 10.

I used to ride the Sunset from Jacksonville to New Orleans when it left JAX around 5PM and was scheduled into New Orleans around 9:20AM but usually was an hour late. I would have a cocktail in the lounge before dinner, dinner, go to bed about 10PM (ET), get up shower, have breakfast. The scenary from Mobile to New Orleans is much better than the flat boring Florida panhandle. Before I knew it, we were backing into NOUPT. The return trip was similar, but more often late very late because the Sunset from the west arrived in NOL late. Many people in North Florida liked the overnight train to Biloxi or New Orleans for a long weekend. Because they can keep busy on a train, it was much more enjoyable than a bus.

 

[NativeSon5859]

Here's a good NOL-JAX-MIA schedule I came up with...assuming using Amfleet equipment and a Viewliner sleeper with an overall consist similar to The Cardinal. Granted if svc east of NOL is restored, it'll probably be to ORL and using Superliners, so if you want, just look at the timing on NOL-ORL and vice versa. Times for trains #1/2 would be adjusted as well to allow for connections to the Florida service.

#62 (NOL-JAX-ORL-MIA)

Dp. NOL 5:30p

BSL 6:43p

GPT 7:05p

BXI 7:18p

PSC 7:43p

MOE 8:33p

ATM 9:20p

Ar. PNS 11:10p

Dp. PNS 11:35p

CRV 12:38a

CHP 2:08a

TLH 5:18a

MAD 6:38a

LKC 7:28a

Ar. JAX 9:10a

Dp. JAX 9:25a

PKA 10:38a

DLD 11:23a

WPK 12:09p

Ar. ORL 12:45p

Dp. ORL 1:00p

KSM 1:22p

WHV 2:14p

SEB 2:55p

WPB 4:44p

DLB 5:13p

DRB 5:29p

FLL 5:52p

HLW 6:08p

Ar. MIA 6:45p

#63 (MIA-ORL-JAX-NOL)

Ar. NOL 11:30a

BSL 9:31a

GPT 9:08a

BXI 8:55a

PSC 8:30a

MOE 7:40a

ATM 6:45a

Dp. PNS 5:15a

Ar. PNS 5:00a

CRV 3:20a

CHP 1:47a

TLH 12:34a

MAD 11:10p

LKC 10:00p

Dp. JAX 8:55p

Ar. JAX 8:35p

PKA 7:10p

DLD 6:25p

WPK 5:39p

Dp. ORL 5:20p

Ar. ORL 5:05p

KSM 4:38p

WHV 3:52p

SEB 3:06p

WPB 1:39p

DLB 1:14p

DRB 1:00p

FLL 12:42p

HLW 12:26p

Dp. MIA 12:00p

 

[henryj]

Some people seem to be laboring under the misconception that the Sunset west of New Orleans is a fast train. It is not.
Total distance: 1995 miles

Scheduled Time: 48 hours. 15 minutes westbound, 47 hours 45 minutes eastbound

Average speed: 41.35 mph westbound, 41.78 mph eastbound

Houston – New Orleans: 363 miles: 9 hours 18 minutes westbound, 9 hours 45 minutes eastbound.

Average speed: 39.03 westbound and 37.23 mph eastbound

These last couple segments help explain why the train tends to be lighter in passenger loads on the east end. Simply put, why would ride through the swamps of southern Louisiana for 9 hours between points that can be driven in 5 to 6 hours.

If the whole run could average just 50 mph, the end to end time could be brought down to around 40 hours, which I believe is somewhere in the vicinity of the schedule actually operated in about 1950.

Well George as I am sure you know, the train in the 1950's made the trip in 42-43 hours still only averaging 47mph and it went through Phoenix. The Houston to New Orleans leg has always been the slowest part of the trip which is why I suggested it be made overnight. I have ridden it a few times and it is excruciatingly slow. Westbound this segment was overnight for a time in the 1950's until the Argonaut was discontinued. Right now, however I think the emphasis should be on triming the padding, restoring the pre-Katrina timing and making the train daily and restoring some service to Phoenix if only a bus connection. I have no idea why the train can't make it from Houston to San Antonio in around 4 hours as the track is totally adequate with few towns or speed restrictions other then the entrance to Houston and SA. This was the normal timing in the past. Better arrival and departure times in San Antonio should also be a goal and could be done easily.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

I am certainly in agreement that we NEED that service NOL-JAX. But your proposed schedule would have that train and 97 running JAX-MIA less than a half hour apart all the way down the Florida peninsula, which is a waste of equipment and fuel, and would be a real hassle for the station agents, since on some days (just add a little delay to one or the other) the trains would be literally one right after the other. Just take a look at the current Silver Service route schedules. It would make much more sense to make it NOL-JAX and connect those pax to 97. And 98 could bring connecting pax up from the Florida peninsula to Jax where you could start the return westbound to NOL.

 

[NativeSon5859]

I am certainly in agreement that we NEED that service NOL-JAX. But your proposed schedule would have that train and 97 running JAX-MIA less than a half hour apart all the way down the Florida peninsula, which is a waste of equipment and fuel, and would be a real hassle for the station agents, since on some days (just add a little delay to one or the other) the trains would be literally one right after the other. Just take a look at the current Silver Service route schedules. It would make much more sense to make it NOL-JAX and connect those pax to 97. And 98 could bring connecting pax up from the Florida peninsula to Jax where you could start the return westbound to NOL.

Yeah, I looked at that, and couldn't really make a better dep. time out of JAX w/o messing up the times up the times of the NOL-PNS, which I tried to make as reasonable as possible.

I think you need direct service South of JAX...be it to ORL, TPA, or MIA....especially if the train East of NOL would be a new train altogether. You wouldn't want to make people going from LAX to MIA, for example, double connect in NOL and JAX.