Sunset Limited Eastern Terminus

[zethya]

Has there been any recent discussions (or rumors) about re-starting the Sunset Limited through to Jacksonville ? Or is the NOL-JAX extension essentially dead forever?

 

[Skyline]

Has there been any recent discussions (or rumors) about re-starting the Sunset Limited through to Jacksonville ? Or is the NOL-JAX extension essentially dead forever?

Every answer will be an opinion. Here's mine:

Not happening until there is a change of administration and Congress turns blue. Even then, not a done deal. Wish I could be more optimistic.

 

[pennyk]

There is some discussion here

 

[Don Newcomb]

Never say "never" but the short answer is probably yes. RIP. However, the most current discussion was for CONO to make a hard left turn at NOL and continue along the coast. So far, it's just talk. No telling if SL & CONO would connect at NOL or there' be an overnight waiting for the connection.

 

[jis]

Never say "never" but the short answer is probably yes. RIP. However, the most current discussion was for CONO to make a hard left turn at NOL and continue along the coast. So far, it's just talk. No telling if SL & CONO would connect at NOL or there' be an overnight waiting for the connection.

It is more than just talk. There is an EIS and a published proposal document, and negotiation of track access etc. is proceeding, though as usual, slower than would be most desirable.

The current proposal does not require overnight from CONO, since some (not all) cars from CONO are used for the service between NOL and Orlando. A second train from NOL to Mobile is proposed with no connection to CONO or SL, primarily serving the interest of the local population.

At present there is zero chance of the Sunset being extended eastwards. Indeed, one of Amtrak's proposals has the train from LAX running to Chicago, and a shuttle replacing the Sunset between San Antonio and New Orleans.

 

[cpotisch]

CONO to Florida I think makes more sense than the Sunset. I don't think that Los Angeles to Florida is a very high demand route at this point. Meanwhile, direct service from Chicago to Florida would make the area vastly more accessible. For many potential passengers, having to transfer twice and take a really indirect route (through Chicago and DC) is a real problem. Cutting that down to one transfer and a more direct route would make the train MUCH more appealing.

 

[Don Newcomb]

It is more than just talk. There is an EIS and a published proposal document, ....

Talk but on paper. Until real dollars (7-8 figures) start to be spent, it's all just talk in different formats. Just like we aren't talking now, rather we're typing, but it's still just talk.

The current proposal does not require overnight from CONO, since some (not all) cars from CONO are used for the service between NOL and Orlando. A second train from NOL to Mobile is proposed with no connection to CONO or SL, ......

Maybe I was unclear. Since the original question was about continuation of SL eastward from NOL, I was saying that one could not (AFAIK) just transfer from SL to/from the extension of CONO heading to/from Florida.

This is one of the big failing of Amtrak service at NOL: No direct connections can be made between any trains. Every connection requires an overnight in NOLA.

 

[Lonestar648]

With the current Congress and Administration leaning more towards a reduction of service, it appears unlikely any serious money will be allocated. Also,with Amtrak very low with car inventory, adding seems even less likely in the short term.

Personally, I think extending the CONO (a daily train) into Florida, making the TE a daily to LAX, with a connector that runs SAS to NOL, is the best scenario.

 

[KmH]

The current congress has just a few more months to exist.

Come November, all 435 voting seats in the house, and 33 seats in the senate, will be up for grabs.

 

[Anthony V]

Last year, Congress overwhelmingly rejected the cuts to Amtrak president Trump proposed in his budget proposal. Instead, they voted to increase Amtrak spending, and it looks like they'll do the same this year. Even many fellow Republicans voted against his budget. Therefore, Congress is not as anti-Amtrak as some think. Trump's expectations for what he wants to be passed in a budget are very outlandish and unrealistic, so as long as he keeps asking for that kind of budget, it will always be dead-on-arrival in Congress.

 

[frequentflyer]

East of NOL? It’s just a matter of time before the SL to NOL will be through cars from SAT as the majority of the consist heads to CHI as the TE.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Why would they have the SL route east of San Antonio become a shuttle? As far as major markets go, Houston and Dallas are roughly the same size, with Houston having a much more direct routing from the west and no other Amtrak lines. While Chicago and St. Louis are bigger than New Orleans, they already have the SWC with daily service to New Mexico, Arizona, and Southern California. St. Louis passengers must connect in Kansas City, but it is still far faster than the Texas Eagle. I will soon be moving to Chicago and have never been on this route so such a change would have no negative impact on me, but I don't understand the appeal of it. Would this involve daily service west of San Antonio? Even if that is the case, population density is much greater east of there than west of there, so why not implement daily service to New Orleans if it is one or the other?

 

[jis]

The reasons were all spelled out in Amtrak's document (which have since been taken down from their web site) and discussed extensively on AU.

The primary goal was to create a daily train from Texas to California, and equipment-wise, it was easier to do so using the Texas Eagle as the primary through leg, with a few through cars to NOL on a shuttle train. The NOL - SAS segments was viewed as the weaker leg of the two legs. Incidentally the shuttle was also planned to be daily, and timed better for regional ridership enhancement.

One can argue about it until the cows come home, but that is what was there in that document. It did not happen because UP asked for too much money to make the train daily over its tracks, allegedly after an Amtrak negotiator with a misplaced and oversized ego blew up the entire discussion.

Incidentally, the only time the segment SAS - LAX has had more than thrice weekly service was when for a brief period a TE was extended to LAX for an additional day with no connection towards NOL at SAS. So there is precedent of higher frequency service from CHI to LAX via SAS than NOL to LAX via SAS. It apparently did quite well while it lasted.

 

[Lonestar648]

The STL, DAL, FTW, AUS, SAS markets would support a daily TE to/from LAX. I would expect more than one sleeper would be needed.

 

[west point]

NOL connections are a bucket of worms. Most opinions are that the Crescent and CNO times are set in stone. NOL except at certain times is not a high value destination. How to connect the present 3 + an extension of NOL - Florida has many different possibilities none which are the most desirable. One has to wonder how many persons might want to connect thru NOL similar to what now happens in CHI.

One possibility would have the SAS - NOL train be single level and have all NOL trains single level with equipment overnighting and connecting outward. However do not believe at present there would be enough persons to justify those thru cars ?

Lets see

SL - CNO, Crescent, Florida cars

CNO - Florida cars

Crescent - Sunset, Crescent

Florida - Crescent, CNO , Sunset

.

 

[jis]

Even when a through car operated from the Crescent to the Sunset, it overnighted in New Orleans.

 

[frequentflyer]

The less than daily schedule of the Sunset is one of the reasons its costs are so high. I believe Amtrak's thinking is sending a shortened three or four car train will lessen costs.

Right now the SL is using a 2nd unit between SAS and NOL when one will easily due for the 7 car consist. I believe the 2nd unit is needed for the mountains in west Texas. The majority of the LA traffic on the TE is from the DFW area and Austin.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

My proposal a while ago was to schedule the SL to be transfer friendly with the Crescent in NOL and have good times in SAS and LAX. Instead of running the TE all the way from CHI-LAX, I would run through cars from DAL-SAS to hook up to the SL in SAS so you could still have a one seat ride DAL-FTW-LAX. This proposal would have also extended the Heartland Flyer south to Houston via Dallas and College Station using an old Texas Eagle schedule from the 90's. With this schedule, you can travel from the NEC to LAX via NOL instead of CHI. Of course all you need is more equipment and host railroad permission, that's all!

Sunset Limited Heartland Flyer Reschedule Proposal January 2016.pdf

 

[Lonestar648]

I find there are several sleeper passengers who ride either LAX to CHI, or Maricopa to CHI or further. Seems that the TE traffic needs a solid route from/to Chicago.

 

[west point]

Unfortunately some problems.

1. Not enough time at NOL to allow for proper on time departures. ( Late trains - Maintenance - servicing - switching at stub terminal ).

2. Loose SL - Starlight connections at LAX

Advantage

11. Day train HOS - SAS.

 

[Palmland]

Amtrak’s just released 5 year plan says:”..Amtrak has worked closely with the Gulf Coast Working Grroup to evaluate the potential to restore improved passenger rail service to that region along portions or all of the suspended Sunset Limited route.” This is one of the few specifics on route changes mentioned in the report. Given that portions of the former Sunset route east of Pensacola do not have any signaling, much less PTC and CSX has that line up for sale, there is little if any chance that the Sunset will be revived. However I do think we will see new train service along the gulf coast from New Orleans to Mobile.

 

[jis]

Amtrak actually plans to use a process called Safety Management System, which it is importing from the aviation sector, to evaluate each case where they may need to operate over trackage that is not protected by PTC but is otherwise legal to operate on, to figure out processes to be used to continue operation. If they completely fail at coming up with a process that is deemed safe by the SMS methodology, then and then only they will stop operations.

My guess is that there will be no case where they will be unable to figure out a way to operate safely. For example the Ethan Allen on Rutland literally has the entire railroad to itself while it is on it. There is absolutely nothing else moving on it. Unless it figures out a way to crash into itself, the only real danger is of a grade crossing accident or a track washoout or some such, a possibility that exists even on almost all PTC protected trackage. Exemptions are typically not granted lightly by the FRA. I am almost certain that after the posturing is done with operating under Track Warrant with some additional restrictions as proposed by the NTSB will be permitted too.

 

[west point]

From our understanding the biggest problem of no PTC locations on dark territory would be not knowing switch positions. Maybe have to go to highly visible switch stands ? Note: CSX has installed PTC on at least one dark route.

 

[frequentflyer]

I find there are several sleeper passengers who ride either LAX to CHI, or Maricopa to CHI or further. Seems that the TE traffic needs a solid route from/to Chicago.

Remember back when TE ran three days a week, a sleeper and two coaches were switched in SAT to the Sunset.

Also remember Amtrak doing a test run rerouting SL from HOU,DAL,FTW,Midland-Odessa, and ELP. It would do away with switching cars and be a simple daylight connection at FTW or DAL. At times the Sunset would take that route when detouring around derailments. Do not know Amtrak did not go through with reroute.

 

[Don Newcomb]

........Given that portions of the former Sunset route east of Pensacola do not have any signaling, much less PTC and CSX has that line up for sale, there is little if any chance that the Sunset will be revived. However I do think we will see new train service along the gulf coast from New Orleans to Mobile.

Just MHO but in my view, the whole Mobile-Tallahassee segment of that route has serious issues. The run north out of Mobile, around Mobile Bay and back down into P'cola takes hours. It would be quicker to offload everyone at Mobile and bus them to Milton. While the track is fairly straight out of Milton, it lacks PTC and Amtrak's SL service there was always at oh-dark-thirty making it sleep-over segment, for the most part. For a train to be useful it must make progress as-the-crow-flies. Making big zig-zags gets you no place fast.

Of course, all the low bridges between NOL and Mobile also present some issues.