Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle discussion

[George Harris]

Rebuilding the line is going to be major work, might as well start fresh with concrete ties, CWR and 15,000ft passing sidings every 12mi.
Given UP won't even spend the money to finish double tracking the sunset route I'm doubtful they'd rebuild a large section of main track for 1 Z train a day.

And signals, and don't forget about the likely need for bridge replacements. Siding spacing likely to be longer than 12 miles. More likely 15 to 20 miles. Conversely, given the open country, track per mile cost would be far less than a contractor's price for the usual transit or commuter line track, maybe even by half.

 

[cirdan]

Rebuilding the line is going to be major work, might as well start fresh with concrete ties, CWR and 15,000ft passing sidings every 12mi.
Given UP won't even spend the money to finish double tracking the sunset route I'm doubtful they'd rebuild a large section of main track for 1 Z train a day.

unless they can somehow dress this up so Amtrak is pushed into picking up a significant part of the costs.

 

[alanh]

I'm pretty sure that's what UP wants. UP and Amtrak/Arizona want the line reopened but they're hoping the other will pay for it.

It was pointed out that the out of service Gila sub requires a detour of about 100+ miles. Depending on how many IM trains operate going east might require some improvements to that section of track. Another problem is that the yard only has about 1 mile of yard tracks. Otherwise, longer trains will need to be joined / split outside the yard. There are many grade crossing close to the west end of the yard with obvious political problems.

All the major streets west of the yard are bridged (16th St., 7th St., Central, 1st Ave., 7th Ave.) The streets that would be blocked are low volume and there are easy detours. Blocking 24th St. on the east side which they do now is more disruptive.

The main problem would be game days at the basketball and baseball stadiums. The baseball stadium has pedestrian bridges over the tracks.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The Texas Eagle is running with sleeper on the rear. Engine, Dinner/Lounge, Baggage/Coach, Coach, and Sleeper.

SCA said it might change back, but doesn’t know why it was changed.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Still one engine or two on the Sunset Limited?

2 P-42s most days!(;it's a 3 times a week Route)

 

[GDRRiley]

And signals, and don't forget about the likely need for bridge replacements. Siding spacing likely to be longer than 12 miles. More likely 15 to 20 miles. Conversely, given the open country, track per mile cost would be far less than a contractor's price for the usual transit or commuter line track, maybe even by half.

You can do entirely PTC based signals and drop lineside to be extra cheap or just not care and limit pax to 60mph and freight to 50mph
I'd expect 2-3m a mile

 

[George Harris]

You can do entirely PTC based signals and drop lineside to be extra cheap or just not care and limit pax to 60mph and freight to 50mph
I'd expect 2-3m a mile.

First, the FRA regulation states "60 mph or faster" for passenger and "50 mph or faster" for freight. Consequently you have lines with speed limits of 59/49. With ABS, the rule reads "80 mph or faster for all trains. This is the why behind the many miles of track with 79 mph speed limits for passenger trains. By the way, signal spancing would probably be one mile or something over a mile.

To go bopping along at 59 mph on what would of necessity be essentially new track that is primarily straight would simply be silly. Really, if the line is put back into main line condition, then what should be done is to do whatever is necessary to allow a higher speed, say 90 mph or even 110 mph.

 

[Cal]

The Texas Eagle is running with sleeper on the rear. Engine, Dinner/Lounge, Baggage/Coach, Coach, and Sleeper.

SCA said it might change back, but doesn’t know why it was changed.

Easier transition with the Sunset? If there's only one sleeper, makes sense to put it on the back for the quickest possible switching maneuver.

 

[trimetbusfan]

The Texas Eagle is running with sleeper on the rear. Engine, Dinner/Lounge, Baggage/Coach, Coach, and Sleeper.

SCA said it might change back, but doesn’t know why it was changed.

That’s what I was going to say too, might make it easier for them to switch the 421/422 cars

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

One of these days I am going to watch the train maneuver require in San Antonio (probably by YouTube).

I will note the amount of diesel soot on the inside of the sleeper window in the hallway is impressive.

 

[toddinde]

I bought the rail pass and am having a great time planning a month long escape from reality.

One of my late September trips is from Taylor (TX) to Seattle via Los Angeles. The Coast Starlight leaves LA at 10:10 am. The Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle is scheduled to arrive LA at 5:35 am, but the on time performance is … whimsical. Especially the last couple weeks. The last three arrivals have been 12, 6, and 10 hours late.

Any insight would be appreciated, especially as to the insane delays recently.

Some insights from boots on the ground here in AZ. First, since the STB filing, the Sunset’s ontime performance appears to have improved.

I bought the rail pass and am having a great time planning a month long escape from reality.

One of my late September trips is from Taylor (TX) to Seattle via Los Angeles. The Coast Starlight leaves LA at 10:10 am. The Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle is scheduled to arrive LA at 5:35 am, but the on time performance is … whimsical. Especially the last couple weeks. The last three arrivals have been 12, 6, and 10 hours late.

Any insight would be appreciated, especially as to the insane delays recently.

The situation is the best it’s been in years. There is speculation on here that’s thin on facts, so let me fill in the details. Fisret

 

[toddinde]

Some insights from boots on the ground here in AZ. First, since the STB filing, the Sunset’s ontime performance appears to have improved.

The situation is the best it’s been in years. There is speculation on here that’s thin on facts, so let me fill in the details. Fisret

Part of my comment got cut out so I’ll finish my thought. Amtrak has two grants pending before the FRA; one for a daily Sunset and the other to get the Sunset back through Phoenix. UP isn’t opposed with conditions. It’s easier to dispatch a daily train than a three day a week. There are many interests that would like to see the Wellton line restored. A number of parties will come to the table to get it done.

 

[Cal]

Part of my comment got cut out so I’ll finish my thought. Amtrak has two grants pending before the FRA; one for a daily Sunset and the other to get the Sunset back through Phoenix. UP isn’t opposed with conditions. It’s easier to dispatch a daily train than a three day a week. There are many interests that would like to see the Wellton line restored. A number of parties will come to the table to get it done.

Out of curiosity, how long would it take for these to actually get a response? Amtrak doesn't have the equipment to make the Sunset daily at the moment, right? So even if it goes through, it'd have to wait probably 5-10 years for new equipment to arrive.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Out of curiosity, how long would it take for these to actually get a response? Amtrak doesn't have the equipment to make the Sunset daily at the moment, right? So even if it goes through, it'd have to wait probably 5-10 years for new equipment to arrive.

Actually to make the Sunset Daily would not require an additional trainset. The equipment utilization is so bad running 7 days requires the same amount of equipment for 3 days a week.

Four trainsets are required. The arrival times at both locations allow same day/night turnaround. Yes a very late train can screw up the works, but it works most days in Chicago for the LSL.

 

[fillyjonk]

The Texas Eagle is running with sleeper on the rear. Engine, Dinner/Lounge, Baggage/Coach, Coach, and Sleeper.

SCA said it might change back, but doesn’t know why it was changed.

On my Thanksgiving trip up, it was that way - I kind of like it, quieter (less horn/whistle) and no chance of diesel fumes, though you do have to troop through the coaches to get to the diner. Coming back home (on Friday after Thanksgiving) the sleeper was in the usual place, just before the diner.

Will be interesting to see what I get in 2 weeks when I travel for Christmas

 

[George Harris]

Just a little more on the direct route via Maricopa versus the old passenger route via Phoenix:
Tucson to Picacho: 46 miles
Picacho to Wellton: 168 miles via Maricopa
Picacho to Wellton: 211 miles via Phoenix
Wellton to Yuma: 37 miles
Yuma to Los Angeles: 251 miles
Slicing the middle portion of the Phoenix line:
Picacho to Phoenix: 75 miles
Phoenix to Wellton: 136 miles
All the above distances are from an October 27, 1957 passenger timetable.
Note that going through Phoenix is 43 miles longer than the line via Maricopa. That difference make the choice of route for freight obvious. While talking about the line west of Phoenix being out of service, is should not be forgotten that the line east of Phoenix is now effectively a stub end branch line, so that it also likely is no longer being kept to main line standards for high speed freight. Therefore, we are not talking about upgrading only the line west, but the entire line. The difference between them would be amount of work required. For the west line, 136 miles, with 2.5 mile sidings at about 15 mile intervals, which would be nine sidings, that would be 159 track-miles of rail, plus 420,000 ties, assuming concrete ties at 24 inch centers, plus 18 turnouts for sidings, plus 3 high speed turnouts at Wellton for the junction. I leave the cost guessing to others. For the east line, 75 miles, it would seem reasonable to again consider 100% new rail for the main track, but say we could reuse rails from the existing main track for the sidings. Here we would be looking at 75 track miles of new rail, and say about 50% new ties, which would be about 100,000 new ties, plus 10 turnouts for the sidings. (I think we should be considering higher speed turnouts and lengthening of sidings, as well.) What should be done in the way of station tracks at Phoenix, is for another time. Again, I leave the cost guessing to others.

 

[alanh]

The active portion through Phoenix was updated to welded rail about 10 years ago, along with upgraded signals.

As far as I can tell, the problem area is from Welton to Buckeye.

 

[George Harris]

The active portion through Phoenix was updated to welded rail about 10 years ago, along with upgraded signals.

As far as I can tell, the problem area is from Welton to Buckeye.

Buckeye to Wellton is 106 of the 136 miles between Phoenix and Wellton. So far as I know, everything west of Phoenix is at best local service or storage, so it would still need the complete or very close to it rebuild. For planning purposes, I would stay with the complete rebuild concept for the whole 136 mile length.

By active portion, do you mean Picacho to Phoenix? When saying welded rail, that can mean a lot of different things. Generally when a branch gets welded rail, it is rail removed from a main track, the defective rails and joints cut out, and the string rewelded. The rails can easily be 50+ years old. Sometimes a string is not even all the same section, so long as they are close. If the line is to return to main line 79 mph or more status, we should probably consider the need for all new rail until inspection proves otherwise.

 

[west point]

Seem to recall the route is signaled to Wellton. Saw a picture of a stop signal at the end of active track.

 

[George Harris]

Seem to recall the route is signaled to Wellton. Saw a picture of a stop signal at the end of active track.

This Phoenix Line discussion is about to turn into a subject of its own.

I found a piece of a 2004 UP Employee Timetable for this area. Follows is some information from it:
The lines are mileposted from West to East. Milepost for passenger stations are not given. I have put in my best guess and labeled them as such. Here they are, beginning at Yuma and going east. Appears that the milepost for Yuma may be the passenger station.
732.7 Yuma
770.7 shown as beginning milepost of Phoenix Line
770.8 Wellton With reduction of 0.6 miles due to milepost equations, 37.5 miles
896.0 Maricopa west end siding. With reduction of 0.4 miles due to MP equations, 124.8 miles fm Wellton
897.7 Maricopa east end siding. Station likely in this distance somewhere
936.7 Picacho west end siding - junction somewhere in this siding?? 39.0 miles between adjacent siding ends
938.4 Picacho east end siding
984.5 Tucson Station - approximate. Yard milepost 986.6
987.7 Gila Subdivision / Lordsburg Subdivision transition
1296.0 El Paso "Civic Center" Maybe Station Location? With reduction of 2.4 miles due to MP equations, 309.1 miles between stations Tucson to El Paso.
Speed limits are 79 passenger, 65 freight, 70 expedited freight, but with many speed restrictions of 70 mph to 55 mph, with a few less.

Now for the Phoenix Line:
770.7 Wellton - beginning portion shown designated as Roll Industrial Lead - ABS in service, but 20 mph, disregard signals.
771.0 derail
777.0 derail
782.3 end of in-service track - begin out of service track, next 20.5 miles out of service
802.8 end of Roll Lead, begin Phoenix Line Main Track - next 51.2 miles out of service. Total 70.7 miles OOS
854.0 begin in-service track - 25 mph speed limit (unless reduced by slow orders which is likely.)
904.8 end 25 mph limit, begin 20 mph limit.
906.0 Phoenix Station - maybe - in 15 mph speed limit section.
907.0 Phoenix Yard
924.2 End low speed section with speed limits of 20 mph to 40 mph. - Except for four lower speed zones, speed limit is 60 mph the rest of the way to Picacho
979.7 Picacho - junction with main line, 25 mph turnout, no equation with main line milepost given. Likely to be 937.0.

Summary: Phoenix Line, 209.0 miles long, 70.7 miles out of service, over 100 miles with speed limits of 25 mph or less. Massive rebuild effort required. Would suspect that condition of line today is no better than and probably worse than it was in 2004.

 

[Awesometrainz]

Phoenix needs to happen soon ideally the sunset limited becomes Daily returns to Florida and retunes to phoenix .

 

[Bob Dylan]

Phoenix needs to happen soon ideally the sunset limited becomes Daily returns to Florida and retunes to phoenix .

Florida is not happening for the Sunset Ltd in our Lifetimes!( Cue Johhny Mathis singing " Twelfth of Never!")

 

[BlackDiamond]

Phoenix needs to happen soon ideally the sunset limited becomes Daily returns to Florida and retunes to phoenix .

One thing at a time. Get it running daily first then work on getting it through Phoenix. Like Bob Dylan says, getting it extended to Florida is not likely anytime soon. At best you will have a connection at NOL for the MS Gulf Coast and Mobile.

 

[JRR]

Florida is not happening for the Sunset Ltd in our Lifetimes!( Cue Johhny Mathis singing " Twelfth of Never!")

I’d give you a like for your observation except someone might construe it to mean I don’t want the SSL to return to Florida. The 12th of Never is just about right!

 

[jis]

I’d give you a like for your observation except someone might construe it to mean I don’t want the SSL to return to Florida. The 12th of Never is just about right!

There will eventually be a train between NOL and Florida. It just won't be the Sunset Limited. If it is an extension of any train that will be CONO. But most likely it will be a self standing separate train.

For now, the Southern Rail Commission has put it on the back burner while it concentrates on NOL - MOB, Baton Rouge - NOL and MEI - DAL/FTW (the old Crescent-Star proposal that was floated in the Crescent PIP many Moons ago - resurrected by the Feds recently). One wonders whether there is any scope of through cars from the last one to the Sunset developing, but probably not, dues to equipment incompatibility.