Superliner Refresh? Capitol Limited Suggestions, etc.

[neroden]

I agree with what you are saying in the situation's you cited.

I think a better example of "ADA vanity", was the requirement that every single intercity bus in public service, be equipped with a wheelchair lift, and space for a couple of wheelchairs, instead of the operator providing on demand ADA vehicles, that would even provide door to door service withing a reasonable distance from any bus stop or terminal.

The actual requirement was that all buses should have space for wheelchairs. Initially, far too many fools used lifts; after a while, nearly every local bus switched to using low-floor boarding, which they should have done in the first place.  There were actually special provisions made to allow "over the road coaches" to comply differently from everyone else, and they're still using lifts -- I guess they don't mind boarding extremely slowly, and they really wanted that luggage compartment, and they figured a higher ride was preferable.

It *still* happens that an old intercity bus will show up, or one with a broken wheelchair lift.  Does the operator get another bus to replace it?  No, that would typically take six hours or more.  Having every "over the road coach" have a wheelchair lift is really a *minimum* to make it possible for intercity buses to be usable by people in wheelchairs.  Intercity buses sort of suck to start with.

Do you *seriously* think the bus operator is *really* going to be able to provide a custom, door-to-door wheelchair-accessible van trip from Ithaca NY to Bismarck ND?  It was a joke, a fake proposal.  There's a reason it was flatly rejected by the people who wrote the ADA.

"Separate but equal" has a history of ending up unequal and simply not working.  This has happened with paratransit in every single city.  New York being the extreme example, with Access-a-Ride being a disaster.  We had to wait for Andy Byford before the MTA got serious about complying with the ADA, and they're on the hook for billions of dollars in station renovations because they renovated stations illegally, without adding elevators.

Amtrak has suprisingly good lifts, but the lifts are a kludge.  Wheelchair users don't like them, Amtrak employees don't like them, they slow everything down.  Bridgeplates are much more reasonable, but you have to get the boarding height right.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I've seen the employees fail in their duty.  'Nuff said. There's a reason the disabled community is demanding tools which do not require employee intervention.  It's great to have employees for assistance, but...

There is nothing in the ADA that would prevent the loss of any station that currently provides ramps or lifts and would be cheaper to close than to upgrade.  That's what happens when sledgehammer logic meats the law of unintended consequences. 'Nuff said.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

There is nothing in the ADA that would prevent the loss of any station that currently provides ramps or lifts and would be cheaper to close than to upgrade.  That's what happens when sledgehammer logic meats the law of unintended consequences. 'Nuff said.

At least everyone would have equal non access to those closed stations.

 

[jis]

Or the many possible lines of service that will not be considered due to the cost too. There is a happy medium there somewhere but our excessively confrontational society is probably incapable of rationally arriving at such.

 

[Anderson]

The actual requirement was that all buses should have space for wheelchairs. Initially, far too many fools used lifts; after a while, nearly every local bus switched to using low-floor boarding, which they should have done in the first place.  There were actually special provisions made to allow "over the road coaches" to comply differently from everyone else, and they're still using lifts -- I guess they don't mind boarding extremely slowly, and they really wanted that luggage compartment, and they figured a higher ride was preferable.

It *still* happens that an old intercity bus will show up, or one with a broken wheelchair lift.  Does the operator get another bus to replace it?  No, that would typically take six hours or more.  Having every "over the road coach" have a wheelchair lift is really a *minimum* to make it possible for intercity buses to be usable by people in wheelchairs.  Intercity buses sort of suck to start with.

Do you *seriously* think the bus operator is *really* going to be able to provide a custom, door-to-door wheelchair-accessible van trip from Ithaca NY to Bismarck ND?  It was a joke, a fake proposal.  There's a reason it was flatly rejected by the people who wrote the ADA.

"Separate but equal" has a history of ending up unequal and simply not working.  This has happened with paratransit in every single city.  New York being the extreme example, with Access-a-Ride being a disaster.  We had to wait for Andy Byford before the MTA got serious about complying with the ADA, and they're on the hook for billions of dollars in station renovations because they renovated stations illegally, without adding elevators.

Amtrak has suprisingly good lifts, but the lifts are a kludge.  Wheelchair users don't like them, Amtrak employees don't like them, they slow everything down.  Bridgeplates are much more reasonable, but you have to get the boarding height right.

The problem is that in some cases (way too many, I suspect) the choice has been seen as being between "illegal renovations" and "no renovations".  I've raised this as an issue with the ADA before, but it is very possible to envision that some of those illegally-renovated stations simply wouldn't have gotten worked on.

(And of course, there's also the WMATA approach: Include the elevators but regularly have a bunch of them out of service because of upkeep backlogs...)

 

[jis]

Analog of regulations that as an unintended consequence limited most of the US to 79mph?

 

[neroden]

There is nothing in the ADA that would prevent the loss of any station that currently provides ramps or lifts and would be cheaper to close than to upgrade.  That's what happens when sledgehammer logic meats the law of unintended consequences. 'Nuff said.

The most basic element of the ADA law requires Amtrak  to *not make things worse for disabled people than the existing state* during changes.  So, don't replace level-boarding stations with ones which require lifts.  Think they can manage that much?  If not, seriously, that's mismanagement -- shut it down.

No transit agency in the country is allowed to replace rolling stock which *has* level boarding with rolling stock which *does not have* level boarding.  Amtrak will be held to the same standard.  And it should be.

Conclusion: Amtrak is going to be buying some more bilevels.

 

[neroden]

Analog of regulations that as an unintended consequence limited most of the US to 79mph?

Those regulations -- the forerunner of the PTC regulations -- suffered from being too *weak*; the 79-mph loophole shouldn't have existed.  In 2008, Congress finally issued a much stronger set of PTC regulations, and this time, they're being obeyed.

 

[neroden]

The problem is that in some cases (way too many, I suspect) the choice has been seen as being between "illegal renovations" and "no renovations".  I've raised this as an issue with the ADA before, but it is very possible to envision that some of those illegally-renovated stations simply wouldn't have gotten worked on.

Which is just fine.  NYC Transit has openly discriminated against disabled people for too long.  No renovations would have been better than bigoted, discriminatory, illegal renovations.  I hope they're forced to divert most of their budget to re-renovating the illegally renovated stations.  They need to learn a lesson.

Amtrak has behaved better than *that*, and has generally complied with the provisions of the law relating to adding accessibility when doing upgrades.  They've failed to budget for the legally-required upgrade to *all* intercity rail stations, but that isn't surprising and is more excusable.  Amtrak's ADA problems are more out of ignorance and incompetence than out of malice.  NYC's problems are malice.  This only started to change with Byford, very recently, and the change still hasn't made it into the rest of NYC Transit culture.

Interestingly, Boston and Philadelphia *started out* as obstructionist as NYC, but changed attitudes after a while.  Philadelphia's City Hall subway renovation is possibly the most complicated wheelchair-access project in the US, and is taking years and spectacular amounts of money, but they're doing it a bit at a time.  By contrast, NYC didn't even do the EASY stations -- elevated stations where it's trivial to drop an elevator shaft to a *vacant lot* by the street.  It was malicious.

 

[cpotisch]

No transit agency in the country is allowed to replace rolling stock which *has* level boarding with rolling stock which *does not have* level boarding.  Amtrak will be held to the same standard.  And it should be.

Here’s my question: Does a traditional low level platform + a Superliner really count as level boarding? The floor of the SLs are still a solid foot or more above the platforms, so plenty of disabled people can’t make it into a Superliner without a lift.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Here’s my question: Does a traditional low level platform + a Superliner really count as level boarding? The floor of the SLs are still a solid foot or more above the platforms, so plenty of disabled people can’t make it into a Superliner without a lift.

Your example is a station platform that is not compliant with the ADA. Also Superliners use ramps not lifts.

 

[jis]

I have been wondering how many of the stations that are served by Superliners are actually compliant with the ADA level boarding requirement. This is not a rhetorical but a serious wondering.

 

[cpotisch]

Here’s my question: Does a traditional low level platform + a Superliner really count as level boarding? The floor of the SLs are still a solid foot or more above the platforms, so plenty of disabled people can’t make it into a Superliner without a lift.

Your example is a station platform that is not compliant with the ADA. Also Superliners use ramps not lifts.

I’m pretty sure I’d heard the crew mention a lift multiple times when I was on the TE and there was a very old lady in our sleeper trying to get on and off.