Switching Locations?

[blueman271]

Unless someone has already mentioned it, there was a sleeper transfer at Kansas City and don't forget the St. Louis section of the CITY of NEW ORLEANS.

Or was the latter a cross-platform transfer? Never rode it.

No, it was through cars and not a cross-platform transfer. Another example I am surprised has not been mentioned yet is Auburndale. Early on in Amtrak, trains were split there into west coast and east coast (of Florida) sections. This avoided the Tampa reversal that is used today, which was especially important because trains used to continue past Tampa to St. Petersburg. This also allowed both Tampa Bay and Southeast Florida to have all of the state's LD trains, although there was no LD service between the two areas (there was a briefly operated state-funded corridor service between Tampa and Miami).

There are a couple good videos from back in the day of the Auburndale shuffle:

The Meteor and the Star also dropped and added cars in Jacksonville for a while. I believe the Auburndale split was moved to Jacksonville sometime in the late 80s and remained there until the Silver Palm was introduced in the mid 90s (96 I think) and the Meteor and Star no longer ran Tampa and Miami sections.

 

[cpotisch]

During the period that the CZ, Pioneer, and Desert Wind ran combined all the way from Chicago to Salt Lake City, during the summer month's, it did something that I don't believe any other Superliner ever did...it carried two Superliner diner's in the consist, along with one Sightseer Lounge (that was staffed on both levels).

On board, they called the Chicago/Oakland diner the "Chicago Diner", and the Chicago/Los Angeles diner the "L A Diner", owing to their crew bases. The Pioneer picked up a Sightseer in SLC. I don't recall what the Pioneer ran with from Denver to Seattle, after the change in the '90's....

The Auto Train has multiple diners...

 

[zephyr17]

During the period that the CZ, Pioneer, and Desert Wind ran combined all the way from Chicago to Salt Lake City, during the summer month's, it did something that I don't believe any other Superliner ever did...it carried two Superliner diner's in the consist, along with one Sightseer Lounge (that was staffed on both levels).

On board, they called the Chicago/Oakland diner the "Chicago Diner", and the Chicago/Los Angeles diner the "L A Diner", owing to their crew bases. The Pioneer picked up a Sightseer in SLC. I don't recall what the Pioneer ran with from Denver to Seattle, after the change in the '90's....

My ex-wife and I rode the Desert Wind in 1984 and once connected up with the CZ, we had 2 diners and could use either one.

 

[railiner]

During the period that the CZ, Pioneer, and Desert Wind ran combined all the way from Chicago to Salt Lake City, during the summer month's, it did something that I don't believe any other Superliner ever did...it carried two Superliner diner's in the consist, along with one Sightseer Lounge (that was staffed on both levels).

On board, they called the Chicago/Oakland diner the "Chicago Diner", and the Chicago/Los Angeles diner the "L A Diner", owing to their crew bases. The Pioneer picked up a Sightseer in SLC. I don't recall what the Pioneer ran with from Denver to Seattle, after the change in the '90's....

The Auto Train has multiple diners...

Thanks...I didn't know that...having never rode it, or likely ever will...

 

[PaulM]

The river cities was a pretty neat connection, when I rode it was just a single coach that went from the city of new Orleans train to St. Louis where it was added to the mornings Kansas city train.

For at least part of its short life it had only a dome coach and heritage sleeper.

 

[lstone19]

Yes, it was before the mid 80s. The SFZ operated over UP's Overland Route, which goes through neither Salt Lake City, nor the Colorado Rockies. Salt Lake was only an intermediate stop for the Desert Wind. After 5/6 shifted to D&RGW, it split at Salt Lake. Not sure how they handled it during the interim period it was officially supposed to have been routed on the D&RGW, but it was "detoured" on its former UP route due to the Thistle slide in April 1983. During the "detour" period I don't recall whether it continued west on the SP over the Lucin Cutoff as it did before, or whether it went south from Ogden to take the former WP as it did after it started running over the D&RGW. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that it stayed on the SP because there were no intermediate stops between Ogden/Salt Lake and Elko, in paired track territory, so there wasn't a passenger impact on whether it went over the ex-WP, recently merged with UP, over Silver Zone or SP over the Lucin Cutoff. Operationally it is just easier to stay on the UP/SP Overland Route, so the split would have remained at Ogden. However, if they shifted to the ex-WP and ran the whole train south to Salt Lake during the "detour" period, the split could have been at either Ogden or Salt Lake. I don't think they did, but I don't know. It doesn't make a bunch of sense.

I also don't recall exactly when the new trackage at Thistle opened and 5/6 actually started using the D&RGW, but it was fairly quick for a construction project of that magnitude, so late 1983 or early 1984 is my guess. I have a couple of books that have the date it started over the D&RGW (which was a big deal to Amtrak), but I didn't dig them out. But it was in 1984 at the latest.

I rode 5 in Sep 1983 CHI-OAK and it was via the D&RGW. I remember sweating whether we’d be able to go that way but they got it open just a few weeks before. I remember going through the new Thistle tunnel which was rough and unfinished inside - I believe they bored the first one and got it open unfinished, then did the second track and tunnel, then went back to finish the first tunnel.

Also, according to my very detailed records of the trip that I still have, we went via Ogden which was still a scheduled passenger stop. So the re-routing to the ex-WP came later so certainly during the April to August detour via its old UP route from DEN to OGD, it just continued west on the SP.

I don’t think the move to the ex-WP route came until after UP acquired SP. Until then, Amtrak’s contract for west of Ogden was with SP, not UP/WP. After UP acquired SP and the Amtrak contract, it then became multiple route options on the same railroad.

 

[Twin Star Rocket]

I think the detour of the SAN FRANCISCO ZEPHYR (or was it the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR by then?) on the WP out of Salt Lake City started around 1983 or 1984. I have a vague memory that the level of the Great Salt Lake had risen significantly and perhaps SP's trestle/causeway (Lucin Cutoff) across the lake had been storm battered.

 

[Twin Star Rocket]

Not mentioned yet: There was switching at Dallas when the Houston section of the TEXAS EAGLE operated. Before that there was a short Dallas train that

connected at Ft. Worth with the LONE STAR. Also for a short time just after the late-70s Carter cuts, there was a Houston section of the INTER-AMERICAN that was switched at Temple TX.

 

[railiner]

Yes, it was before the mid 80s. The SFZ operated over UP's Overland Route, which goes through neither Salt Lake City, nor the Colorado Rockies. Salt Lake was only an intermediate stop for the Desert Wind. After 5/6 shifted to D&RGW, it split at Salt Lake. Not sure how they handled it during the interim period it was officially supposed to have been routed on the D&RGW, but it was "detoured" on its former UP route due to the Thistle slide in April 1983. During the "detour" period I don't recall whether it continued west on the SP over the Lucin Cutoff as it did before, or whether it went south from Ogden to take the former WP as it did after it started running over the D&RGW. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that it stayed on the SP because there were no intermediate stops between Ogden/Salt Lake and Elko, in paired track territory, so there wasn't a passenger impact on whether it went over the ex-WP, recently merged with UP, over Silver Zone or SP over the Lucin Cutoff. Operationally it is just easier to stay on the UP/SP Overland Route, so the split would have remained at Ogden. However, if they shifted to the ex-WP and ran the whole train south to Salt Lake during the "detour" period, the split could have been at either Ogden or Salt Lake. I don't think they did, but I don't know. It doesn't make a bunch of sense.

I also don't recall exactly when the new trackage at Thistle opened and 5/6 actually started using the D&RGW, but it was fairly quick for a construction project of that magnitude, so late 1983 or early 1984 is my guess. I have a couple of books that have the date it started over the D&RGW (which was a big deal to Amtrak), but I didn't dig them out. But it was in 1984 at the latest.

I rode 5 in Sep 1983 CHI-OAK and it was via the D&RGW. I remember sweating whether we’d be able to go that way but they got it open just a few weeks before. I remember going through the new Thistle tunnel which was rough and unfinished inside - I believe they bored the first one and got it open unfinished, then did the second track and tunnel, then went back to finish the first tunnel.

Also, according to my very detailed records of the trip that I still have, we went via Ogden which was still a scheduled passenger stop. So the re-routing to the ex-WP came later so certainly during the April to August detour via its old UP route from DEN to OGD, it just continued west on the SP.

I don’t think the move to the ex-WP route came until after UP acquired SP. Until then, Amtrak’s contract for west of Ogden was with SP, not UP/WP. After UP acquired SP and the Amtrak contract, it then became multiple route options on the same railroad.

I think the detour of the SAN FRANCISCO ZEPHYR (or was it the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR by then?) on the WP out of Salt Lake City started around 1983 or 1984. I have a vague memory that the level of the Great Salt Lake had risen significantly and perhaps SP's trestle/causeway (Lucin Cutoff) across the lake had been storm battered.

The April 24, 1983 timetable indicates the route was supposed to go from Salt Lake City up to Ogden, and then west...of course that was delayed by the big slide detour.

The next timetable, October 30, 1983, shows the route going directly west from Salt Lake City. Not sure if it happened on that date, or perhaps a little before....

 

[Twin Star Rocket]

My personal train log has a note for my trip on 8/28/83 on the westbound CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR: "re-routed around the Great Salt Lake on the WP line." I was on the 3rd leg of a circle trip SPIRIT OF CALIFORNIA--DESERT WIND--CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR.

On an earlier ZEPHYR trip (1982?) , I remember the wind whipping up water spray and foam over the tracks on the Lucin Cutoff trestle/causeway as we headed toward Ogden. The early 1980s were wet years in the Great Basin.

 

[lstone19]

My personal train log has a note for my trip on 8/28/83 on the westbound CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR: "re-routed around the Great Salt Lake on the WP line." I was on the 3rd leg of a circle trip SPIRIT OF CALIFORNIA--DESERT WIND--CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR.

On an earlier ZEPHYR trip (1982?) , I remember the wind whipping up water spray and foam over the tracks on the Lucin Cutoff trestle/causeway as we headed toward Ogden. The early 1980s were wet years in the Great Basin.

My trip mentioned above was on 9/10/83 (5 departing CHI on 9/9) and as I have arrival and departure times recorded for Salt Lake City and then Ogden, clearly went Lucin Cutoff.

 

[jis]

The dropping of Lucin Cutoff and Ogden happened in the October 1983 timetable.

 

[Twin Star Rocket]

Probably best to define terms:

Detour is a temporary change of route because of maintenance, strike, weather, etc.

Re-route is a long-term change of route that is reflected in the schedules eventually.

Those are my usage.

So the 8/28/83 use of the WP for the westbound CZ from Salt Lake City was actually a detour since Istone19 reported the CZ was back on the Lucin Cutoff on 9/10/83.

By October 1983 the change became a re-route.

 

[jis]

Probably best to define terms:

Detour is a temporary change of route because of maintenance, strike, weather, etc.

Re-route is a long-term change of route that is reflected in the schedules eventually.

Those are my usage.

So the 8/28/83 use of the WP for the westbound CZ from Salt Lake City was actually a detour since Istone19 reported the CZ was back on the Lucin Cutoff on 9/10/83.

By October 1983 the change became a re-route.

Yeah, the route shown in the April 1983 timetable was via Lucin Cutoff with a stop at Ogden, and the switching between the Pioneer and the Zephyr took place in Ogden. Separation of the Desert Wind from the Zephyr-Pioneer combo took place at Salt Lake City.

With the October timetable the switching of both trains moved to Salt Lake City. The station was located at where the Gateway Center is today, devoid of any railroad tracks other than LRTs today.

 

[railiner]

Probably best to define terms:

Detour is a temporary change of route because of maintenance, strike, weather, etc.

Re-route is a long-term change of route that is reflected in the schedules eventually.

Those are my usage.

So the 8/28/83 use of the WP for the westbound CZ from Salt Lake City was actually a detour since Istone19 reported the CZ was back on the Lucin Cutoff on 9/10/83.

By October 1983 the change became a re-route.

Good points....

Just a couple of month's ago, I believe there was a thread telling about the CZ detouring the other way...over the Cutoff, due to some fire or other disruption on the former WP line into SLC...

 

[Seaboard92]

To give you an idea how complex a single setoff was in the 60s let's look at the Northern Pacific North Coast Limited (Chicago-Seattle/Portland) which was split in Pasco, WA into a Seattle and Portland train.

Consist

1. Baggage (SEA)

2. Mail Dorm (SEA)

3.dome coach Line 250 (SEA)

4. Coach line 251 (SEA)

5. Coach Line 254 (SEA)

6. Coach Line 253 (PDX)

7. Dome coach line 252 (PDX)

8. Travelers Rest lounge (SEA)

9. Diner (SEA)

10. Dome Sleeper (4-4-4) line 256 (SEA)

11. 8-6-4 sleeper line 258 (SEA)

12. 8-6-4 sleeper line 257 (PDX)

13. Dome sleeper (4-4-4) line 255 (PDX)

14. Sleeper observation line 259 (SEA)

So with the consist set up like this meant you made four cuts with the following moves.

1. baggage thru car 254 pulling forward.

2. Another engine pulling 253, 252 out of the way.

3. Head end backing on to travelers Rest.

4. Making a cut at car 258 and pulling forward with the main trunk of the train.

5. Portland section backing back on and pulling 257 and 255 off of the observation car.

6. Seattle section backing up to pick up car 259.

Time scheduled to complete: 15 minutes

 

[cpotisch]

To give you an idea how complex a single setoff was in the 60s let's look at the Northern Pacific North Coast Limited (Chicago-Seattle/Portland) which was split in Pasco, WA into a Seattle and Portland train.

Consist

1. Baggage (SEA)

2. Mail Dorm (SEA)

3.dome coach Line 250 (SEA)

4. Coach line 251 (SEA)

5. Coach Line 254 (SEA)

6. Coach Line 253 (PDX)

7. Dome coach line 252 (PDX)

8. Travelers Rest lounge (SEA)

9. Diner (SEA)

10. Dome Sleeper (4-4-4) line 256 (SEA)

11. 8-6-4 sleeper line 258 (SEA)

12. 8-6-4 sleeper line 257 (PDX)

13. Dome sleeper (4-4-4) line 255 (PDX)

14. Sleeper observation line 259 (SEA)

So with the consist set up like this meant you made four cuts with the following moves.

1. baggage thru car 254 pulling forward.

2. Another engine pulling 253, 252 out of the way.

3. Head end backing on to travelers Rest.

4. Making a cut at car 258 and pulling forward with the main trunk of the train.

5. Portland section backing back on and pulling 257 and 255 off of the observation car.

6. Seattle section backing up to pick up car 259.

Time scheduled to complete: 15 minutes

Wait, that took 15 minutes? How is that possible? It takes at least as long as that to split/combine the Lake Shore in Albany, and that involves a grand total of two moves.

 

[CCC1007]

To give you an idea how complex a single setoff was in the 60s let's look at the Northern Pacific North Coast Limited (Chicago-Seattle/Portland) which was split in Pasco, WA into a Seattle and Portland train.

Consist

1. Baggage (SEA)

2. Mail Dorm (SEA)

3.dome coach Line 250 (SEA)

4. Coach line 251 (SEA)

5. Coach Line 254 (SEA)

6. Coach Line 253 (PDX)

7. Dome coach line 252 (PDX)

8. Travelers Rest lounge (SEA)

9. Diner (SEA)

10. Dome Sleeper (4-4-4) line 256 (SEA)

11. 8-6-4 sleeper line 258 (SEA)

12. 8-6-4 sleeper line 257 (PDX)

13. Dome sleeper (4-4-4) line 255 (PDX)

14. Sleeper observation line 259 (SEA)

So with the consist set up like this meant you made four cuts with the following moves.

1. baggage thru car 254 pulling forward.

2. Another engine pulling 253, 252 out of the way.

3. Head end backing on to travelers Rest.

4. Making a cut at car 258 and pulling forward with the main trunk of the train.

5. Portland section backing back on and pulling 257 and 255 off of the observation car.

6. Seattle section backing up to pick up car 259.

Time scheduled to complete: 15 minutes

Wait, that took 15 minutes? How is that possible? It takes at least as long as that to split/combine the Lake Shore in Albany, and that involves a grand total of two moves.

Way different work rules back then.

 

[lstone19]

Probably best to define terms:

Detour is a temporary change of route because of maintenance, strike, weather, etc.

Re-route is a long-term change of route that is reflected in the schedules eventually.

Those are my usage.

So the 8/28/83 use of the WP for the westbound CZ from Salt Lake City was actually a detour since Istone19 reported the CZ was back on the Lucin Cutoff on 9/10/83.

By October 1983 the change became a re-route.

I agree with the use of detour vs. re-route. Which is what makes what it did in April 1983 so fascinating when it was re-rerouted between DEN and OGD from the UP to the D&RGW but due to the Thistle slide, detoured on what had been it’s old regular route until some time in August.

 

[railiner]

Probably best to define terms:

Detour is a temporary change of route because of maintenance, strike, weather, etc.

Re-route is a long-term change of route that is reflected in the schedules eventually.

Those are my usage.

So the 8/28/83 use of the WP for the westbound CZ from Salt Lake City was actually a detour since Istone19 reported the CZ was back on the Lucin Cutoff on 9/10/83.

By October 1983 the change became a re-route.

I agree with the use of detour vs. re-route. Which is what makes what it did in April 1983 so fascinating when it was re-rerouted between DEN and OGD from the UP to the D&RGW but due to the Thistle slide, detoured on what had been it’s old regular route until some time in August.

To be technical, it was to be re-routed from Denver to Salt Lake City on the D&RGW, thence the UP from Salt Lake City to Ogden. It was not going to use the Rio Grande's rails from SLC to Ogden. The only time those tracks were used for the remnant of the old CZ, operating as "California Service" when the WP quit running its portion of the CZ, was on the three times a week it ran into Ogden to make a cross-platform connection with the City of San Francisco, for service on to California. When Amtrak started running what became the SFZ, the Rio Grande substituted buses or vans to make that connection. That was in 1970-1971...