The Coast Daylight

[BCL]

The current suggestion from Amtrak, and the likely plan if the Daylight ever gets put into play, is to run San Jose to San Diego.

Is that workable without maybe using a push-pull configuration? Maybe locomotives at both ends? Maintenance would probably still be in Oakland.

 

[trainviews]

Well, my point regarding CAHSR is really one of network design; with CAHSR operating, it may not make sense to run the one-a-day train from Seattle all the way through to LA. It'll still make sense to run trains on the Coast Line -- and yes, more trains than today -- but people will get used to transfers, and more transfers may make more sense! I would be totally OK with the Coast Starlight running from the Pacific Northwest to NorCal with a change of trains at Sacramento, Oakland, or San Jose to a frequent, many-times-daily corridor service along the coast from NorCal to SoCal.

Much like the current change of trains at LA if you're heading to San Diego.

I'd be curious as to whether there would be any savings by dropping the through operation.

Consider scenario A and scenario B:A: lots of trains heading down the coast line, HSR down the Central Valley, Coast Starlight goes to LA

B: lots of trains heading down the coast line, HSR down the Central Valley, Coast Starlight stops at Sacramento and is replaced with *one more* regional train on the Coast Line

In scenario B, the regional train has more reliable scheduling than the Coast Starlight would, giving it more riders. It's likely also cheaper to operate.

You know how I feel about transfers. Maybe if HSR has unreserved seating and if you miss your connection in Sacramento or the Bay Area and you don't have to wait in a long line to change your ticket for a later train when you miss your connection (like I did) it might be worth it. It also depends on how much quicker the HSR train is from SAC to LAX than the CS is. If it's an hour or two savings, I'd probably rather stay on the CS. If it's close to the difference between the situation in Philly right now (the transfer to either WAS or NYP saves about 6 hrs compared to the Cardinal), I would make the transfer.

In reality, if the lack of transfer is any advantage for Amtrak, I think they'd be foolish to give it away and lose their business between the Bay Area and LAX (that's currently around 14 hours on the CS between SAC and LAX). If they do terminate the CS in Northern California, who would then take an Amtrak train unless they run as quick as HSR does? And if Amtrak could run anywhere close to HSR speed between SAC and LAX then the time difference is not as great and the lack of transfer becomes a bonus for Amtrak.

The other potential HSR threat to Amtrak is Xpress West (http://www.xpresswest.com/network.html) if they get to Denver. Could passengers from CHI to LAX then take the CZ to DEN and transfer to an Xpress West to LAX?

In reality, Amtrak really was dumb to give up on Vegas in 1997. They should have at least begun LAX-Vegas service back when the 750 mile rule wasn't in place. Now with it in place, why would Nevada spend a dime on a LAX-Vegas route when Xpress West is on its way? Now Amtrak has lost the Vegas market permanently.

I've always wanted Amtrak to have competition. Maybe these moves (and AAF) actually forces Amtrak to try to expand or improve service instead of them saying to us "we know you're going to ride our trains no matter how lousy they are".

These musings are almost comical. Have you read any of the CAHSR plans?

Sacramento-LA will when fully built out be less than 4 hours - or 10+ hours faster than the coastal route. Except for a bit of scenic route tourism there will be no endpoint to endpoint market on that route after CAHSR starts running. The route might still have more passenger potential than today, but as local traffic and feeder route for the HSR line.

Same thing with Las Vegas. Amtrak could have built up a solid corridor or not - the moment a high speed route cuts travel time to a fraction of Amtrak's it's dead. Especially with the lack of any mentionable middle markets on that route.

But while HSR will spell doom for a few Amtrak lines, it has large possibilities for the rest of the system - if Amtrak is able to arrive to the future in time. HSR could mean a whole new era of passenger railroading, including for the connecting system of traditional speed passenger routes.

The wisest thing Amtrak could do is to embrace the new routes as hard as they can with through ticketing and as seemless transfers as possible (and with todays technology there's a lot better ways to handle missed connections than make people stand in long lines at the transfer point. An automated new reservation and a text message with the new departure time plus a number to call if that is not the preferred solution should do the job).

 

[BCL]

Sacramento-LA will when fully built out be less than 4 hours - or 10+ hours faster than the coastal route. Except for a bit of scenic route tourism there will be no endpoint to endpoint market on that route after CAHSR starts running. The route might still have more passenger potential than today, but as local traffic and feeder route for the HSR line.

What's it going cost though? There will still be a market for the budget conscious whether it's a bus or a bus/train combo.

 

[Paulus]

The current suggestion from Amtrak, and the likely plan if the Daylight ever gets put into play, is to run San Jose to San Diego.

Is that workable without maybe using a push-pull configuration? Maybe locomotives at both ends? Maintenance would probably still be in Oakland.

All California trains run push-pull, maintenance would be in Los Angeles

 

[Blackwolf]

The current suggestion from Amtrak, and the likely plan if the Daylight ever gets put into play, is to run San Jose to San Diego.

Is that workable without maybe using a push-pull configuration? Maybe locomotives at both ends? Maintenance would probably still be in Oakland.

All California trains run push-pull, maintenance would be in Los Angeles

Actually, I would believe maintenance would be equally split between Los Angeles and Oakland. Remember, the Oakland yard is actually owned by the California Department of Transportation, where-as I believe LA is Amtrak owned.

Not that it really matters where, of course. As long as the trains actually ARE maintained and kept professionally cleaned (that last aspect is sorely lacking on most Amtrak LD trains outside of Sleeper, and there are cases when the whole darn train is disgusting no matter what class you book.)

 

[BCL]

The current suggestion from Amtrak, and the likely plan if the Daylight ever gets put into play, is to run San Jose to San Diego.

Is that workable without maybe using a push-pull configuration? Maybe locomotives at both ends? Maintenance would probably still be in Oakland.

All California trains run push-pull, maintenance would be in Los Angeles

Actually, I would believe maintenance would be equally split between Los Angeles and Oakland. Remember, the Oakland yard is actually owned by the California Department of Transportation, where-as I believe LA is Amtrak owned.

Not that it really matters where, of course. As long as the trains actually ARE maintained and kept professionally cleaned (that last aspect is sorely lacking on most Amtrak LD trains outside of Sleeper, and there are cases when the whole darn train is disgusting no matter what class you book.)

What I can find about the "Oakland Maintenance Facility" is that it was jointly built by Amtrak and Caltrans.

http://www.trainweb.com/news/2002/2002k14a.html#sthash.GDha6OoV.dpbs

This investment represents another example of Amtrak's successful partnership with the state of California to improve passenger rail services. As part of the joint capital investment, Amtrak has committed $27 million toward construction of the facility, while the state of California will invest $38 million.

"California is one of Amtrak's strongest partners and has a deep business interest in ensuring that the maintenance of the state-owned equipment is first-rate," said Warren Weber, Manager of the California DOT Rail Program. "The state invested funds in the new Amtrak Oakland maintenance facility to protect the states' investment in train equipment and build upon the success of passenger rail service in California."

This says that the state owns 60% of the yard:

http://dot.ca.gov/hq/tpp/offices/owd/tpfa/AmtrakOaklandMaintenanceFacility.pdf

Anyone know what Amtrak used before this yard? I'm guessing they might have paid SP/UP for the right to use their maintenance yard somewhere in the area?

Not sure about the progress on building a Sacramento yard. I suppose if this ever gets built it might make a difference regarding maybe stopping the Coast Starlight in Sacramento.

http://www.sacbee.com/mobile/bees-best/article2578351.html

 

[Paulus]

Maintenance in Oakland would require deadhead moves through a major corridor while Los Angeles simply requires regular rotation of the sets through a combined pool with the Surfliner. As it is, the trains already operate as a Daylight truncated at San Luis Obispo.

 

[BCL]

Maintenance in Oakland would require deadhead moves through a major corridor while Los Angeles simply requires regular rotation of the sets through a combined pool with the Surfliner. As it is, the trains already operate as a Daylight truncated at San Luis Obispo.

Parking a corridor train is easy enough to do. However, isn't there an issue with reaching capacity limits? The Sac Bee article I found claimed that Oakland is already maxed out. I'm wondering about LA. They're probably going to shift around the equipment once Sac gets a maintenance yard.

 

[neroden]

Sacramento-LA will when fully built out be less than 4 hours - or 10+ hours faster than the coastal route. Except for a bit of scenic route tourism there will be no endpoint to endpoint market on that route after CAHSR starts running. The route might still have more passenger potential than today, but as local traffic and feeder route for the HSR line.

Exactly. Once CAHSR is up and running, all remaining traffic on the Coast Line will be local traffic (heading to Salinas, San Luis Obispo, etc.) and you've got to reconsider the network design in that light.

 

[tp49]

Not sure about the progress on building a Sacramento yard. I suppose if this ever gets built it might make a difference regarding maybe stopping the Coast Starlight in Sacramento.

http://www.sacbee.com/mobile/bees-best/article2578351.html

Based upon the linked Bee article (which is now a tad over two years old so we know some of what's happened since it was published) the East Sacramento site mentioned as a potential yard will not happen because the housing development former State Treasurer Angelides was backing is now under construction. Haven't heard word one on the site near Sutter's Landing park. The best place to put it based on the sites mentioned in the article is McClellan Park. Haven't heard much here either way so who knows where in the process any of this is.

 

[Karl1459]

Don't put fully operational CAHSR into the discussion. Its either going to get built or not, and its either going to get ridership or not. If it does get built and is a success its a total game changer so the political pressure will be to have HSR on all corridors and there will be a cash cow to fund it. Bye-bye snailrail, the Starlight runs SEA-SAC with CAHSR and corridor trains from there.

In the meantime incremental upgrades to fast conventional rail make sense. And interconnections are a big part of that. Enlarging the base of rail passengers be positive in its own right and will give a ready market for CAHSR, as it will be easier to educate the potential market to take a faster train than switch from a car/air to (any) train.

 

[neroden]

Well, this is one reason I'd like to see the Daylight up and running before CAHSR gets running. To make sure there's a sustainable base of passengers along the coast before UP tries to get rid of passenger service altogether.

 

[tp49]

Don't put fully operational CAHSR into the discussion. Its either going to get built or not, and its either going to get ridership or not. If it does get built and is a success its a total game changer so the political pressure will be to have HSR on all corridors and there will be a cash cow to fund it. Bye-bye snailrail, the Starlight runs SEA-SAC with CAHSR and corridor trains from there.

In the meantime incremental upgrades to fast conventional rail make sense. And interconnections are a big part of that. Enlarging the base of rail passengers be positive in its own right and will give a ready market for CAHSR, as it will be easier to educate the potential market to take a faster train than switch from a car/air to (any) train.

You're making the assumption that CALHSR will either be operated by Amtrak or have some type if interline ticketing agreement with Amtrak. If neither of these happen (though I could see the later happening) then I could see the Starlight still going to LA.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

It's possible to make this complicated, especially by adding in a HSR line a hundred miles inland.

Seems to me it's simpler than that.

The Coast Daylight will be a glorified Surfliner. Those trains are very successful. So what's one more? It will be successful, too.

Looks like 11 Surfliners run between San Diego and L.A. Almost clock face, stretched a little thin in the middle of the day. I'm sure California has been making plans to add another departure or two or three when they can get the equipment to have hourly times. That point will come when the initial order for bi-levels for the Midwest and West Coast corridors is completed. I expect Cali will order more cars before then. And they'll need new cars for the Coast Daylight if they hope to start it in 2022 or so.

Of those 11 Surfliners, 4 continue to Santa Barbara, and 2 of those to San Luis Obispo. Surely no one expects that HSR in the Central Valley will diminish demand San Diego-L.A.-Santa Barbara-SLO. I'd expect another Surfliner to be added here as soon as capacity improvements are made to satisfy the UP and to provide better and safer service.

Then the small part of the game will be for a train or two to continue SLO-Salinas-SanJose-SF/Oakland-Sacramento.

The Coast Starlight's 3:37 p.m. stop in SLO will be almost like another Surfliner train coming in, except the Starlight and the Daylight will pass thru, and not dead-end in San Luis Obispo. If SLO can support two Surfliners and the Starlight now, I expect the route beyond can easily support another thru train, as well as a couple more Surfliners from L.A. that will turn at SLO.

Long distance and medium distance trains do better when they share a route with corridor trains. The Lake Shore, the Ethan Allen, the Adirondack, and the Maple Leaf are some of the almost hourly trains NYC-Albany. The Texas Eagle benefits from being part of the line-up of trains CHI-STL and will do better when part of the 110-mph pack in 2018. The Coast Starlight already benefits, and will benefit more when two more departures are added, from being part of the trains running Seattle-Portland.

So I'm still not worried. The Starlight and the Daylight will thrive as part of expanded Surfliner service in the near future.

 

[leemell]

Please don't call California "Cali". Most of us here don't like it, much like "Frisco". It was started out of state (East Coast I believe), not here.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Please don't call California "Cali". Most of us here don't like it, much like "Frisco". I was started out of state (East Coast I believe), not here.

There's worse names for California like The Shakey State, La La Land, Lotus Land and the Home of Dick Nixon and Ronald Reagan.

How about The Left Coast or the Wrong Coast? Is that offensive to Golden Staters?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Please don't call California "Cali". Most of us here don't like it, much like "Frisco". I was started out of state (East Coast I believe), not here.

I was hoping you'd find a more persuasive reason for me to not call the state Cali. After all, I'm on the East Coast. I'm not sure that West Coasters finding the term annoying is not a plus.

But since this is a railroad blog, I guess I can shorten the multi-syllabic name to CA, as in CAHSR. Then you, and the 1960s era abbrev. scanners at the Post Office, can have it your way. LOL.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Well, this is one reason I'd like to see the Daylight up and running before CAHSR gets running. To make sure there's a sustainable base of passengers along the coast before UP tries to get rid of passenger service altogether.

Why would UP want to get rid of passenger service along the coast line? There's not a whole lot of freight on the coast line and I imagine the revenue from the various passenger trains along the route bring in as much revenue as any kind of freight for the UP. As long as they are properly compensated, I'm sure UP will play nice just like they do on the Capital Corridor, Lincoln Service and Metra service in the Chicago area. UP's extreme anti-passenger attitude seems to have disappeared at the same time as Amtrak's ill-planned freight and express experiment.

 

[leemell]

I'm pointing it out to those whom may use the term without knowing. On the other hand, if your intent is to annoy you are right, there are many other choices. I have heard them all. I was born here and spent quite a few years in the Air Force. I HAVE heard them all. many times. That has rolled off my back several decades ago.