"The Dining Car Problem"

[crescent-zephyr]

Indeed, Amtrak has a vaguely viable national service that covers a significant part of the nation with daily service. VIA I don't think has a really viable and usable transportation service outside of the Ontario - Quebec Corridor. It has a few trains running occasionally here and there with great experiential stuff.

Most people don’t think Amtrak has a viable and usable transportation corridor outside of the NEC.

The sunset and Cardinal run as much as the Canadian correct? Or was the Canadian knocked down to twice a week? (Pre-covid of course, the Canada and USA response to covid is quite different).

 

[jis]

Most people don’t think Amtrak has a viable and usable transportation corridor outside of the NEC.

Most people? Is that your opinion or did you do a poll to come to that conclusion? Then again most people in the US probably are quite unaware of the existence of Amtrak including the NEC too!

Anyway, that is why I hedged by saying vaguely viable. But to claim that Amtrak does not have a viable service anywhere outside the NEC is patently false too.

The sunset and Cardinal run as much as the Canadian correct? Or was the Canadian knocked down to twice a week? (Pre-covid of course, the Canada and USA response to covid is quite different).

Those two constitute a relatively small part of the network outside the NEC. The rest are daily or more frequent, and specially California is more than usable.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Most people? Is that your opinion or did you do a poll to come to that conclusion? Then again most people in the US probably are quite unaware of the existence of Amtrak including the NEC too!

Anyway, that is why I hedged by saying vaguely viable. But to claim that Amtrak does not have a viable service anywhere outside the NEC is patently false too.

Those two constitute a relatively small part of the network outside the NEC. The rest are daily or more frequent, and specially California is more than usable.

Most people that I talk to. Your mileage may vary of course.

Edit - I personally think both Amtrak and VIA offer viable transportation outside of corridors.

 

[Trogdor]

Most people that I talk to. Your mileage may vary of course.

Edit - I personally think both Amtrak and VIA offer viable transportation outside of corridors.

Most people that you talk to ≠ most people. The fact that service was growing in California, Oregon and Washington pre-COVID, with routes such as the Hiawatha breaking ridership records would be evidence enough that there are viable non-NEC transportation corridors on Amtrak.

And to answer your other question, the Canadian was 2x/week during the off-season, and I vaguely recall that even during the past summer (pre-COVID plans), VIA had planned on only running the full route 2x/week, with a third trip only running partway.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Most people that you talk to ≠ most people. The fact that service was growing in California, Oregon and Washington pre-COVID, with routes such as the Hiawatha breaking ridership records would be evidence enough that there are viable non-NEC transportation corridors on Amtrak.

Yeah I wasn’t clear on my point. I believe that most people in the USA feel that way. I don’t believe it is accurate as I do believe the corridors you mentioned as well as other (Michigan, North Carolina, etc) as well as long distance trains in the USA and Canada provide viable transportation.

 

[neroden]

I am not sure Germany would be a very useful comparison just because it is a small place geographically. Perhaps the biggest inefficiency identified by the PRR in the link was crew and equipment scheduling, largely because of the downtime that is inherent with long distance, overnight service. A short-distance network wouldn't have that issue to nearly the same degree. You can basically be open and serving from terminal to terminal. (Yes, you COULD do that all night, but not many people are going to be looking for a full meal at 0200.)

Run it 24 hours a day on the Lake Shore Limited and people would be coming in for meals all night. Might not be true on other trains, but that one attracts a lot of night owls.

 

[neroden]

Basically, DB ICE meal service is basically the same thing as "flex dining" but with slightly better presentation.

Not just presentation. The food on Deutsche Bahn is also higher quality; I've seen some of the ingredients lists.

They reheat packaged foods and instead of serving the TV dinner to you with a few holes poked in the foil, they actually plate it for you. They are able to get fresh bread, and occasionally a few other things fresh.

And even the non-fresh things are higher quality.

They also take a lot more thought and care into how they nuke the prepackaged things. They usually also have a soup of the day and a beer on tap of some kind.

The only thing really stopping Amtrak from going this route are updates on the rolling stock, staff training and logistics.

Frankly, the only thing stopping Amtrak from doing this is unwillingness to pay for good food.

 

[neroden]

Yes I am familiar with the RPA (and its lack of credibility, in my book), and the report (and its flaws, which I will not rehash here; it has been extensively discussed elsewhere). They are part of the foamer world and its conspiracy theories I was referring to.

There are no flaws in that RPA report; your allegations are known to be false, and no flaws in it have been discussed or documented anywhere. You're making a false statement.

I think you're doing a pretty good job at demonstrating your personal lack of credibility. Put up or shut up.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Run it 24 hours a day on the Lake Shore Limited and people would be coming in for meals all night. Might not be true on other trains, but that one attracts a lot of night owls.

Definitely would agree with this. LSL has middle of the night stops in greater Cleveland that force people to be up at early hours, many of whom (myself included) may want some food.

 

[zephyr17]

Canadian had been dropped to 2x week year round prior to COVID by 2019. They started a Vancouver-Edmonton turn with the same schedule and equipment once a week in the summer instead of a third through train. It ran as VIA 3 and 4.

 

[jis]

Definitely would agree with this. LSL has middle of the night stops in greater Cleveland that force people to be up at early hours, many of whom (myself included) may want some food.

Operationally, LSL looks more like the Night Owl than like a real long distance long distance train. It would be even more so if it ran using a 21st century schedule with end to end time that is about four hors or so less. Same is true of the Cap. So yeah I agree, service hours that are quite different from the longer long distance trains would be more appropriate.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Operationally, LSL looks more like the Night Owl than like a real long distance long distance train. It would be even more so if it ran using a 21st century schedule with end to end time that is about four hors or so less. Same is true of the Cap. So yeah I agree, service hours that are quite different from the longer long distance trains would be more appropriate.

What would be required in order to make LSL run more like the Night Owl?
My educated guess is because 65-67 run the majority of its time on Amtrak owned tracks, freight delays are not an issue. Do those trains encounter significant delays south of WAS? Perhaps the run time between Worcester and Albany on the Boston portion would have to be addressed as well.

Having 21st century overnight, intercity service between NYC and CHI could transform the eastern rail world.

 

[jis]

What would be required in order to make LSL run more like the Night Owl?
My educated guess is because 65-67 run the majority of its time on Amtrak owned tracks, freight delays are not an issue. Do those trains encounter significant delays south of WAS?

Having 21st century overnight, intercity service between NYC and CHI could transform the eastern rail world.

Well, the scheduling issue are all intertwined with interactions with freight railroads. So who know what enticement will or won't work. I agree that minimally a post 6pm departure and an 8am-ish arrival, with reliable OTP, would transform eastern rail world

However, I was commenting less on that dream and more about the possibility of keeping some food service available throughout the trip since so many significant on/off points are in the middle of the night, and often people find it convenient to get a drink or a snack or even a meal soon after boarding even if it is at midnight.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Well, the scheduling issue are all intertwined with interactions with freight railroads. So who know what enticement will or won't work. I agree that minimally a post 6pm departure and an 8am-ish arrival, with reliable OTP, would transform eastern rail world

However, I was commenting less on that dream and more about the possibility of keeping some food service available throughout the trip since so many significant on/off points are in the middle of the night, and often people find it convenient to get a drink or a snack or even a meal soon after boarding even if it is at midnight.

Fair enough. Don't want to get too off topic.
I fondly remember Night Owl back in 2000 had a diner, and the experience was wonderful (you could order a pretty tastey spinach salad, and a freshly cooked pasta entree). LSL may be able to provide more or less what Night Owl offered and subsequently lost. Especially considering the aforementioned odd meal times.

One thing I can't wrap my head around is why simple cafe cars can't be stocked with basic edible food, and not exclusively the junkiest, most unhealthy sludge possible. The other day I was trying to figure out what to order aboard the Downeaster, and there really isn't anything worth eating (especially if you are attempting to be at least somewhat healthy). Even the fruit resembled plastic play toys more than food. Menu link here.

 

[zephyr17]

The Cascades (at least before COVID) has a pretty good cafe car menu with quite a few non junky selections, including Ivar's Clam Chowder (a local fav). Of course, it was determined by Washington DOT and not Amtrak.

 

[jis]

The Cascades (at least before COVID) has a pretty good cafe car menu with quite a few non junky selections, including Ivar's Clam Chowder (a local fav). Of course, it was determined by Washington DOT and not Amtrak.

Indeed! That Clam Chowder Soup was heavenly. I hope they still have it.

 

[Nick Farr]

You’re not posting facts, you’re posting your own opinions and claiming they are facts.

The documents you are posting do not back up your opinions.

Can you actually cite any numbers in those (pre COVID) financials? Can you use actual numbers and figures from that report to back up whatever assertion you're trying to make?

Because until you do, I'm the one with the facts and you're the one with the opinions.

 

[Nick Farr]

We are asking for the return of a Denny’s / IHOP quality.

Therein lies part of the problem: You have Boomer Foamers riding the train who want their IHOP cow and carbs off a grill and those under 40 who aren't as interested in all that.

I'm not saying Flex Dining fits the bill for the latter. I'm merely saying you have to contemplate the labor and logistics involved before you throw around statements saying "Oh, just have an onboard cook!"

There's a critical difference between IHOP/Denny's and Applebees. Whereas both menus are pretty reliant upon a flattop grill and a deep frier, Applebees and other Fast Casual restaurants generally rely on fresher, pre-packaged baked goods and fresh vegetables that would require a longer logistics chain for the LD trains that can be managed reasonably.

The menus on Amtrak before Flex Dining were basically easily frozen meats, eggs and reheated starches, with some bagged salad mixes thrown in for good measure. There wasn't even a decent throughput capacity deep frier on board when I started riding.

 

[Nick Farr]

As do I. Since you want to keep this on topic so much - how would you operate the dining Cars on long distance trains?

First: I'd refresh all the dining cars so they didn't have the plastic feel of a mid 1980s McDonalds crossed with late 70s bureaucracy. Even if I couldn't improve that, just simple things like tablecloths, cloth napkins, silverware and lighting changes along with getting rid of having to use pens. I'd give the OBS handheld devices to enter orders, manage tickets and take payment similar to what you see in many restaurants now. I would definitely get rid of the microwaves and add in Turbochef style toaster/rapid heaters and deep friers that comply with regulations. Even simple things like rice cookers could add to the options in the Cafe and the Lounge cars. Add (or refresh) on-board dishwashers. Why not even experiment with 4/2 seatings as seen here in the DB ICE example.

Second: I'd retrain and cross-train the staff. You can have SCAs retrain to do an hour or two doing plating and prep work in the kitchen to assist the Chef or the Cafe Car attendant in the busier times. There's no reason the Cafe Car should ever go unstaffed, you can always have an SCA fill in here and there.

Third: I'd refresh the menu. There's no reason we can't bring back the Traditional Menu, keep the Flex Dining options (though perhaps with less salt), add to the Fresh Fruit and Vegetable items (i.e. dinner salads) and add in daily specials from vendors along the way. Everything in the dining car should be plated and come with real silverware. Not everything has to be prepared fresh--lots of things come in bags and just get reheated or dumped into the prep bins.

 

[Nick Farr]

Frankly, the only thing stopping Amtrak from doing this is unwillingness to pay for good food.

I mean, yes--if you pay enough, someone will come up with a higher quality good.

However, realistically, Amtrak does not have nearly the wide array of vendors to choose from as DB does. There's more Long Distance diners leaving Munich between Noon and 9 PM as there are on the entire US National Network in any given day (even in Daily Service).

Of course, there are no trains that leave Munich that cover nearly the same range without an in-station resupply as any of the LD trains in the Amtrak Network. They are all run out of Chicago and with few exceptions supplied out of Chicago. That is another challenge. How many national vendors will service two trains a day out of Denver? Two trains a day out of Kansas City? Etc.

That, and food quality in general is better in Western Europe and Germany. The portions are much smaller, generally, but it's still almost all exclusively reheated food.

To improve the dining options, Amtrak really has to partner with vendors that can reliably provide catering to urban train stations throughout the country as well as centered in Chicago. This is entirely doable, but Amtrak lacks the imagination and budget to make it happen.

The underlying point is that people are going to take LD trains regardless of the food options. The demand for LD travel is a "captive market". What Amtrak has always struggled with is growing that market with more innovative soft products.

I have never understood why they have not encouraged conferences "on a train", or thought about adding conference rooms or other things that would encourage larger group bookings. There's probably a ton of other great ideas out there that Amtrak hasn't contemplated that go well beyond just enhancing the dining options.

The other underlying point is that it doesn't matter what's on the menu, until the OBS is consistent in quality and procedure--no amount of logistical magic will make up for what is often unacceptable service.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Therein lies part of the problem: You have Boomer Foamers riding the train who want their IHOP cow and carbs off a grill and those under 40 who aren't as interested in all that.

I’m a millennial - pretty sure I’m younger than you are.

 

[TheVig]

I miss getting food from a track side babushka.

 

[MARC Rider]

Many hotel restaurants also lose money.

Amtrak is like that Econo Lodge in New York City that charges way too much but since every other hotel is taken you book it anyway.

Oh no, it's a good bit different. For most people (unless you can afford a private car charter), Amtrak is the ONLY long-distance train ride available. Also, the Econo Lodge isn't subsidized by taxpayer dollars, and won't go out of business if Congress decides to cut funding. Let's face it, if you want to ride trains for long distances, you're stuck with whatever Amtrak feeds you. At least it's better than the Orient Express in the 1970s which had no food service at all, and you had to buy food on the platform, possibly getting stranded at a station, in countries where sanitary conditions weren't always state of the art.

 

[MARC Rider]

But if rail is to become and alternative to flying and gains a proper place in transportation once again, then maybe more of the company men would be riding the rails.

The only kind of service service where rail is a serious alternative to flying is for corridor trips of 200 miles or less. Those trips aren't very long, and, as the Acela and Northeast Regional demonstrate, fine dining is not needed. The first class service on the Acela serves that niche market fine, and one should remember that the vast majority of passengers on the Acela don't feel the need to travel first class. Most passengers do fine on the drinks and snacks sold in the cafe car, as well as meals purchased at various station restaurants. And this is a route that is really used by big-shots (including the President of the United States before he was president) for business travel.

 

[Nick Farr]

I’m a millennial - pretty sure I’m younger than you are.

I miss the Amtrak Steaks. I've also seen a group of ladies in their 70s complain about how there's nothing on the menu they can eat on ever single CZ trip I've ever been on. (Even the COVID trip where my SCA was AWOL and I was just served breakfast in the Dining Car)

There's always anecdotes that disprove the general rule. The general rule, if you look at trends in dining, is away from IHOP/Dennys and towards things like Chipotle, Applebees, etc.