The Future for DC-to-Richmond Rail

[WoodyinNYC]

NCDOT has had plenty of opportunities to explore adding a second train Greensboro-DC. They haven't. I think it's fair to say that they are 100% committed to Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh-Richmond-DC.

Clearly they have their priorities. But at least in their heads they have a secret second list, LOL.

There's clues that Amtrak has had plans for a day train to Atlanta for some time, but never says it out loud. Probably that would go down thru Richmond, since there's already an Atlanta train thru Lynchburg and Charlotte.

And somewhere less than priority but more than a secret, NC has mentioned trains to the Eastern edge of the state, heading down to Wilmington. Also Asheville gets a mention. NC is surely correct to focus on one thing at a time, and so far, it looks like the right things.

Meanwhile both NC and Amtrak have been hide-bound by the lack of equipment.

But if money started to flow from Washington in a normal way, and somehow more single-level coaches appeared (ahem, Horizons, or better new coaches?), somebody might start talking about Charlotte-Greensboro-Dalton-Lynchburg-Charlottesville-D.C.

But that probably won't be in the 2025 timeframe of this Richmond-D.C. route.

 

[xyzzy]

All the talk in NC about Asheville and/or Wilmington stopped a few years ago. The most that can be achieved with the political status quo is a third Piedmont and completing improvements to CLT-RGH. Atlanta, DC via Charlottesville, SEHSR, Asheville, Wilmington... all caught in the prop wash.

 

[Anderson]

All the talk in NC about Asheville and/or Wilmington stopped a few years ago. The most that can be achieved with the political status quo is a third Piedmont and completing improvements to CLT-RGH. Atlanta, DC via Charlottesville, SEHSR, Asheville, Wilmington... all caught in the prop wash.

Asheville got more or less rejected by NS (which demanded some massive passing sidings to make it work), and that route also suffers from lousy average speeds. Wilmington has some merit (I can't speak to track conditions there), though the problem with that route is that it basically becomes a lower-traffic spur.

 

[afigg]

NCDOT has had plenty of opportunities to explore adding a second train Greensboro-DC. They haven't. I think it's fair to say that they are 100% committed to Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh-Richmond-DC.

I think storage capacity for a second overnight train at Charlotte is an issue. The Carolinian has been unable to expand its consists by even 1 coach car because of the limited track layover space in CLT. Phase 1 of the new Charlotte Maintenance Facility is supposed to be completed by early 2017 which will add track space, but whether the funded work will add enough space for an additional full length Regional/Carolinian train, no idea.

But the current NC state legislature is not likely to be very receptive to a proposal to provide subsidy for a second CLT-WAS-NYP train even if there was active support for the idea in the NC DOT rail division. As stated, completing the currently funded track, station projects and additional daily Piedmont trains is the best that can realistically be achieved in the near term until the makeup of the balance of control of the state legislature tilts back more to the middle.

 

[xyzzy]

NS didn't reject Asheville; they just demanded $150M in track improvements, and there's no doubt that the line needs major work. Signaled sidings were just part of it. The line is not even CTC at present and has a 45 mph speed limit except where it crosses the ECD. The cost was 10 years ago, today it would be 1.5-2X that. But Wilmington isn't going to be any cheaper. And this is why putting a billion plus into SEHSR is difficult... the state legislators in the east and west don't give a crap about SEHSR, instead they want their intrastate trains even if that's half a billion..

 

[Anderson]

In general, it isn't the half billion that gets everyone's hackles up...it is the fact that with Wilmington and Asheville you'd probably be looking at $15-25m/yr in subsidy while SEHSR is estimated to likely run in the black (the Carolinian is close enough to break-even, and would probably get over the hump if it could run at 9-10 cars on peak days...but isn't it limited to about 6 revenue cars plus a cafe and bag otherwise?). Likewise, I think SEHSR would be more likely to get federal assistance (matching funds and/or RRIF loans) than the two intrastate trains, and the state gets a lot more bang for their buck in many respects (9x daily RGH-CLT is a big deal). I could definitely see NC being able to fund their portion with relatively little down as long as there's a plausible revenue stream to pay for it...and it isn't like NC is about to be able to do much the RVR-RGH study is complete, anyway.

And FWIW, I was told on here at one point that the $150m for Asheville was taken as a "go away" price a la the Daily Sunset.

 

[west point]

A point may be the SEHSR rebuild of the "S" line might get a higher score for funds if one train would go NYP - WASH - RVR - RVM - RGH - GSO - CLT - ATL. That way any worries about not meeting the LD 750+ mile rule is null & void. This route would certainly connects ATL with the NC & VA capitols. + connections to Norfolk and Newport news. Even though the Crescent route would be slightly faster this route has a much larger population base. As well by that time Lynchburgh will probably have another round trip service.

 

[neroden]

There's clues that Amtrak has had plans for a day train to Atlanta for some time, but never says it out loud.

The hard restriction on additional trains through Atlanta is the deplorable Atlanta station situation. NS has made it pretty clear that they aren't happy with even the one train stopped on the mainline at Atlanta, and don't want another; and the station building and parking is overcrowded already... basically, don't expect to see anything more to Atlanta until the station moves. There have been several efforts to move the station but nothing seems to be capable of getting funding in Georgia.

 

[xyzzy]

And even if GDOT or the City of Atlanta finally provided a better station, there's a political question of whether the Georgia General Assembly would support a train ATL-CLT-beyond or would demand a route that has more in-state mileage.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

A point may be the SEHSR rebuild of the "S" line might get a higher score for funds if one train would go NYP - WASH - RVR - RVM - RGH - GSO - CLT - ATL. That way any worries about not meeting the LD 750+ mile rule is null & void.

This route would certainly connects ATL with the NC & VA capitols. + connections to Norfolk and Newport news. Even though the Crescent route would be slightly faster this route has a much larger population base. As well by that time Lynchburgh will probably have another round trip service.

I like your route, but things get so complicated. Isn't there a rule on Amtrak adding new routes that they have to end at one of the existing maintenance centers? (Those are broadly defined; San Antonio is on the approved list.)

Well, if we're wishing, we might as well wish that Congress would add Atlanta to that list, or make an exception here, or allow some work-around. Otherwise it would have to be a new LD route, perhaps down to Miami, or perhaps Atlanta-Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile-Biloxi-New Orleans, and that looks pretty weak south of Atlanta, just like the Crescent.

About half an hour is coming out of Raleigh-Charlotte, iirc. Then cut half an hour out of D.C.-Richmond, next an hour out of Richmond-Raleigh. Total two hours saved. It's just not enuff.

The Carolinian now leaves NYC at 7:05 a.m. and gets to Charlotte at 8:12 p.m. Subtract our projected 2 hour saving, get it into Charlotte at 6:12 p.m. That's great for Charlotte. But the Crescent takes 5:30 hours to get from there to Atlanta, meaning an extended "LD Carolinian" would arrive there near midnight. What kind of "day train" is that?

Long term and, say, $30 Billion away, we might see 15 or 20 minutes out of the NEC -- new Portal Bridge, new Baltimore Tunnel, new Susquehanna Bridge, etc. To add the Gateway Tunnel under the Hudson we're more like $50 Billion to save 20 or 30 minutes.

Much more time would have to come out of the South Carolina and Georgia stretch, the Southern tail of SEHSR. It ought to get upgrades, because the population Charlotte-Spartanburg-Greenville-Atlanta should support corridor service. But this is not happening in the next decade or more.

 

[xyzzy]

WoodyinNYC is correct. Much of the terrain CLT-ATL is hilly and curvy... the foothills of the Appalachians. Even in the early 1950s when the Southerner was the hottest train in the Southern system and the line was 100% double track, the train was allowed 5:30+ between CLT and ATL. Improving this time would cost significant money for earth-moving.

Note that in the northbound direction, the train would have the same schedule (0705 out of ATL, 2359 into NYP, almost 17 hours elapsed) even after billions of improvements go into place in Virginia and North Carolina. By comparison today's 20 on a generous schedule is just over 17 hours elapsed.

 

[Alex M.]

There was some proposals that the Carolinian could be extended over the R line of NS to Columbia. Maybe this could morph into a Palmetto type of service to Savannah.

 

[xyzzy]

I can see why people in Columbia would prefer a train that doesn't run in the middle of the night like the SIlver Star does each way, and there has been occasional discussion (nothing recent, mind you) of moving the Silver Star off the S-line -- a move that would cut Columbia off the system unless there's a compensating measure. But extending the Carolinian to Columbia raises the problem of turnaround facilities in Columbia as well as either a very early NB departure from Columbia or rescheduling the NB run which would have ripple effects farther north. There are turnaround facilities in Savannah, but the schedule problems of a Carolinian that far south get even worse. I don't see this happening.

 

[Thirdrail7]

There was some proposals that the Carolinian could be extended over the R line of NS to Columbia. Maybe this could morph into a Palmetto type of service to Savannah.

It wasn't the Carolinian they were analyzing for extension. I'm pretty sure I can't say too much more.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I can see why people in Columbia would prefer a train that doesn't run in the middle of the night like the SIlver Star does each way, and there has been occasional discussion (nothing recent, mind you) of moving the Silver Star off the S-line -- a move that would cut Columbia off the system unless there's a compensating measure. But extending the Carolinian to Columbia raises the problem of turnaround facilities in Columbia as well as either a very early NB departure from Columbia or rescheduling the NB run which would have ripple effects farther north. There are turnaround facilities in Savannah, but the schedule problems of a Carolinian that far south get even worse. I don't see this happening.

As I recall, the problem with Charlotte-Columbia is too much track. LOL. Or more correctly, unconnected track. The Silver Star comes down from Raleigh on the CSX line, while a new train from Charlotte (or Spartanburg) would be on NS tracks. There's no Union Station, there's no merging of the tracks. The closest the two lines get is within about 2 or more miles of each other. It would take heavy use of eminent domain and the usual big pile of money to avoid having two (2!) Amtrak stations in Columbia.

The PRIIA study concluded its discussion: "… there is no direct connection between NS’s Charlotte-to-Columbia rail line ... and the CSX rail line that serves Amtrak’s Columbia station, and significant investments would be required ..."

Charlotte-Columbia sure looks good until you get into this nitty gritty.

Many higher priorities for the funds elsewhere.

 

[west point]

The Columbia situation is not quite as the report states. The CLT - Columbia NS line passes over the CSX " S "line north of Amtrak station. ( would require a connection much like the Petersburg connection ).. Farther south the Spartanburg - Columbia route of NS intersects the CSX " S " line as well north of the new Amtrak station ( Pulaski St ) so no problem there..

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm from columbia. The best solution to the station issue. Would be for a connection track at fair worlds where the r line is on an overpass over the seaboard. Likely the r line would get abandoned from fair worlds to Taylor street. As there is one local customer there. Or abandon the SAL from fair worlds to Elmwood and reroute everything down the R line to Union Station.

As I recall the Piedmont has been studied for an extension to Charleston via columbia.

 

[xyzzy]

Extending a Piedmont might make sense. Just be careful... would make it more palatable for 91/92 to run Hamlet-Dillon. No doubt CSX would like to downgrade Hamlet-Columbia-Fairfax.