The growth of China's High Speed Rail network

[Tlcooper44]

The right of way situation in the US isn’t dire. We have freeway medians and underutilized rail rights of way. We could easily access city centers using existing transportation infrastructure, either rail or highway and do the same in rural areas. What we lack is a funding mechanism and political will and interest. We also have a total inability to do any future planning and a total aversion to intermodalism. We also pay more to build infrastructure in this country than anywhere else, and it has nothing to do with labor or environmental laws as other countries have more union protections and more stringent environmental laws than we do. Infrastructure in general, and railroads in particular are an epic fail in the US except when it comes to putting money in shareholder pockets which has become the sole measure of success. Until we figure out how to plan and how to build again in this country, we’ll keep falling further and further behind our peer competitor nations.

Regulations (both warranted & antiquated) also hinder railway innovation and progress in this country.

 

[MARC Rider]

We have freeway medians

Freeway medians aren't always suitable for reasonably fast intercity trains. See this article about gadgetbahnen that discusses the issues involved. Except in parts of the country where freeways are straight and flat for considerable distances, most freeways have curves that are sharp enough that maximum speeds would be limited. Also, many freeways don't have much of a median strip anymore, was they have used that real estate to add more lanes.

 

[jis]

Freeway medians aren't always suitable for reasonably fast intercity trains. See this article about gadgetbahnen that discusses the issues involved. Except in parts of the country where freeways are straight and flat for considerable distances, most freeways have curves that are sharp enough that maximum speeds would be limited. Also, many freeways don't have much of a median strip anymore, was they have used that real estate to add more lanes.

In many places a high tension power line ROWs are probably way straighter over longer distances than freeways. Yeah they may require more viaducts to carry a rail line, but often that is the case with HSR lines anyway to separate it from cross traffic whether automotive, human or animal.

 

[MARC Rider]

In many places a high tension power line ROWs are probably way straighter over longer distances than freeways. Yeah they may require more viaducts to carry a rail line, but often that is the case with HSR lines anyway to separate it from cross traffic whether automotive, human or animal.

In my part of the world (the Maryland Piedmont), it's pretty hilly, and the power line ROWs I know of, while pretty straight, would require building a lot of pretty impressive (200 ft. high or even more) viaducts.

 

[jis]

In my part of the world (the Maryland Piedmont), it's pretty hilly, and the power line ROWs I know of, while pretty straight, would require building a lot of pretty impressive (200 ft. high or even more) viaducts.

Most real HSRs that are constructed new through hilly country tend to have a lot of those and a lot of tunnels too. They tend to prioritize straight or very shallow curves over following the contour of the land, almost always. The very same reason they seldom build them along highways medians.

 

[cirdan]

Most real HSRs that are constructed new through hilly country tend to have a lot of those and a lot of tunnels too. They tend to prioritize straight or very shallow curves over following the contour of the land, almost always. The very same reason they seldom build them along highways medians.

true high speed trains have a better hill climbing ability than conventional trains, which is why conventional trains are banned off some HSR sections.

 

[jis]

true high speed trains have a better hill climbing ability than conventional trains, which is why conventional trains are banned off some HSR sections.

On the original LGV Sud-Est in France, there was one PSR for a vertical curve! If the train traveled faster it would launch itself off the rails!

 

[user 1215]

Most real HSRs that are constructed new through hilly country tend to have a lot of those and a lot of tunnels too. They tend to prioritize straight or very shallow curves over following the contour of the land, almost always. The very same reason they seldom build them along highways medians.

It seems American's don't like spending money on bridges and tunnels unless completely necessary.

 

[Ziv]

I think Winston summed it up best:

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/winston_churchill_135259

It seems American's don't like spending money on bridges and tunnels unless completely necessary.

 

[cirdan]

Most real HSRs that are constructed new through hilly country tend to have a lot of those and a lot of tunnels too. They tend to prioritize straight or very shallow curves over following the contour of the land, almost always. The very same reason they seldom build them along highways medians.

In many countries it's not feasible to put trains in highway medians because in most countries that I know typically these are not as wide as in the US.

But there are many examples of HSR following overall highway alignments. For example a considerable stretch of LGV Nord follows a highway and there are also similar sections in Germany. For example the Stuttgart to Ulm HSR presently under construction is almost entirely alongside a highway.

One advantage is that it is easier to acquire land. One problem with eminent domain is that farms are divided up and farmers have to take long detours to get to the other side which diminishes their competivity. Often to compensate this, planners coordinate land exchange programs so farmers can exchange parcels with one another to keep their land contiguous. Sometimes boundaries are also re-drawn because if for example land is cut diagonally this leads to triangular fields which are not efficient to work. All it takes is one landowner who thinks he is being disadvantaged and you have an open door for lawsuits.

If you follow for example a highway or some other pre-existing impervious corridor, you can save on this step because somebody has already done it for you..

 

[jis]

There is no reason not to use highway medians where the alignment is suitable for high speed rail. Where one does not want to use them is when the ROW has frequent curves that would have a negative impact on HSR speeds.

 

[George Harris]

The usual design speed for the Interstate highway system is 70 mph, although some states use an 80 mph standard for grades and curves (although not for superelevation), and that for a highspeed railroad is usually 200 mph. Then you would near certainly be rebuilding every overpass. Need I say more to say that following a highway may look good as a first idea, but usually turns out to be a very bad idea? Add to this most Interstate system routes go around places where a station would be desirable.

 

[jis]

The usual design speed for the Interstate highway system is 70 mph, although some states use an 80 mph standard for grades and curves (although not for superelevation), and that for a highspeed railroad is usually 200 mph. Then you would near certainly be rebuilding every overpass. Need I say more to say that following a highway may look good as a first idea, but usually turns out to be a very bad idea? Add to this most Interstate system routes go around places where a station would be desirable.

George! What a blast from the past! Good to hear from you again!

 

[MARC Rider]

It seems American's don't like spending money on bridges and tunnels unless completely necessary.

This reluctance to fund public works goes all the way back to the earliest days of the country:

Internal improvements - Wikipedia

 

[Tlcooper44]

This reluctance to fund public works goes all the way back to the earliest days of the country:

Internal improvements - Wikipedia

It always seems to me that America loves celebrating the completion of something new with a big ribbon cutting ceremony, but then subsequently neglect to care for said structure.

Sort of like the suburb experiemnt in a nutshell. Build something new, and then continue building new shiny things to draw attention away from anything crumbling.

 

[user 1215]

Wow, good to hear from you, George!

 

[Anderson]

The usual design speed for the Interstate highway system is 70 mph, although some states use an 80 mph standard for grades and curves (although not for superelevation), and that for a highspeed railroad is usually 200 mph. Then you would near certainly be rebuilding every overpass. Need I say more to say that following a highway may look good as a first idea, but usually turns out to be a very bad idea? Add to this most Interstate system routes go around places where a station would be desirable.

Yes, but what is the relation between a curve built for "70-80 MPH for cars/trucks" and the same curve speed for a tilting passenger train?

 

[cirdan]

T

Yes, but what is the relation between a curve built for "70-80 MPH for cars/trucks" and the same curve speed for a tilting passenger train?

there are obviously places where placing rail lines in the median of a freeway would severely compromise speeds. But this is not true everywhere and there are certainly stretches that are very straight .

I don’t think anybody is even remotely suggesting we need to put passenger trains down the median of every freeway . What I think people talking about freeway medians are trying to say is that we need to be open to all options and take the one that works best depending on the situation .

 

[west point]

It may be that putting a rail line down one side of interstate would be better. I cite the use of side tracks of TriRail. Granted rail line was there first

 

[jis]

It may be that putting a rail line down one side of interstate would be better. I cite the use of side tracks of TriRail. Granted rail line was there first

Yes indeed! All of the new Brightline trackage is on one side or the other of SR528. Absolutely none is literally in the median, i.e. between the eastbound and westbound lanes.

We'll see what happens in case of the I-4 ROW usage.

 

[MARC Rider]

It may be that putting a rail line down one side of interstate would be better. I cite the use of side tracks of TriRail. Granted rail line was there first

There's also two stretches of the NEC, one in northeast Philadelphia that parallels I-95, the other north of Wilmington that parallels I-495. Of course, the railroad was there first, but it's fun to ride the train and pass all the cars and trucks.

 

[daybeers]

Add to this most Interstate system routes go around places where a station would be desirable.

This is much more of an issue for rapid transit systems. The Chicago Blue & Red Lines are particularly terrible examples of terrible uses of highway medians for rail transit. The stations are incredibly loud, easily over 100 dB, and there's nothing to walk to. A terrible, depressing environment that just rubs it in when thousands of cars filled with 1.2 people are zipping at 70 mph past your station when the next train isn't for 10 minutes.

 

[railiner]

This is much more of an issue for rapid transit systems. The Chicago Blue & Red Lines are particularly terrible examples of terrible uses of highway medians for rail transit. The stations are incredibly loud, easily over 100 dB, and there's nothing to walk to. A terrible, depressing environment that just rubs it in when thousands of cars filled with 1.2 people are zipping at 70 mph past your station when the next train isn't for 10 minutes.

On the other hand, if you are stopped in bumper to bumper traffic on the Dan Ryan, trying to get to work or home, you might wish you were on one of those trains speeding past you....

 

[Deni]

On the other hand, if you are stopped in bumper to bumper traffic on the Dan Ryan, trying to get to work or home, you might wish you were on one of those trains speeding past you....

Pretty rare in my experience, and I used to travel on the Dan Ryan Red Line everyday for a long time to my job at U of Chicago. So many lanes on the Dan Ryan that it zips at almost any time of the day. Now the Kennedy, where the Blue Line travels, that's where being on the L is really often faster than the traffic on the freeway.

I couldn't agree more with daybeers about the median L lines, though. Having stood on the platform of the Garfield station almost every weekday for years I wouldn't be surprised if my hearing was affected. Why they have never spent the money to put up sound walls around the stations I'll never understand.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Resurrecting this thread because of a discussion about debt and Chinese HSR.

Alan Fisher did has an interesting video on Chinese HSR (among other things) in this video below. Skip to 3:48 for the actual section discussing it.



Essentially, his argument is that public works (a high speed rail system) is a better use of 2008 government money than corporate bailout of auto companies.

Of course, lots of caveats to this, so discuss away if you so please.