The Gulf Sunset Limited--Coming Back Again??

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

IMHO The San Antonia station is the worse of Amtrak's high usage stations. ATL is a palace compared to SAS. SAS station is a repurposed old SP building just south of original SP station. It really needs replacing in conjunction of proposed additional service.

How does SAS compare to PGH? When it comes to PGH, is the first syllable accurate?

 

[Seaboard92]

Can I ask where you are getting your city pair ridership from. As I would love to use that tool

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Can I ask where you are getting your city pair ridership from. As I would love to use that tool

The link to 2014 NARP city data is listed in one of my previous post. NARP also has route data and state data.

http://www.narprail.org/our-issues/ridership-statistics/

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

In reality if Amtrak doesn't want to do through cars anymore between the SL and TE there are really two options:

1) Force NOL-SAS to transfer to the TE.

2) Force CHI-SAS to transfer to the SL.

If Amtrak wants to do option #1, you would think that there are more passengers that travel from CHI-SAS to SAS-LAX than NOL-SAS to SAS-LAX.

Eh, it's hard to figure this out without numbers which Amtrak has but which we don't have. For one thing there are an *awful lot* of trips listed as terminating in San Antonio, and I suspect some of them are actually connecting to the Texas Eagle.

The only trains that serve SAS currently to my knowledge are the TE and SL. I guess you could transfer from the southbound TE to the eastbound SL but that would require an overnight stay (9:55pm to 6:25am). Same if you were coming from NOL/HOU and going north to say Texas (12:05am to 7:00am). But you have to transfer already for those and there is no proposal that would change that.

If you eliminate the through car option, you're forcing someone to have to transfer. The Amtrak proposal is forcing NOL-SAS to transfer to the TE. My alternative (which I'm not saying is better) is forcing DAL-SAS to transfer to the SL. So the real question is do more passengers going to/from LAX/Arizona/El Paso originate from the TE portion north of SAS or the SL portion east of SAS. Unless there is some AGR trick or some other reason, no one would "transfer" at SAS if they didn't have to. I am assuming those who terminate in SAS are going the opposite way (west to north and south to east) and they don't factor in the decision into who you force to transfer since they're still going to transfer anyway. The hope is you force fewer people to have to transfer and be stuck in the Amshack that west point described.

Or better yet, keep the through cars and have no one forced to transfer.

 

[DetroitTed]

For Sunset/Eagle passengers to/from Houston and New Orleans, I'm more concerned about the low average speed, only 40 or 45 mph iirc.

Houston-San Antonio should be a state-supported corridor with upgraded faster tracks and 4 or 5 trains each way every day. The next step would be, 3 or 4 trains Houston-Beaumont-Lake Charles-Lafayette-New Orleans. The New Orleans-San Antonio segment is the 4th busiest city pair on the Sunset now, despite the lousy 3-days-a-week schedule, slow speed, and all. (But I don't know if they credit connections to the NB Eagle to this segment.) Even one more frequency here could help things, giving an option for a cross-platform transfer in New Orleans and a stop-over in San Antonio instead.

Such corridor service would make possible marketing a "Stop-Over Tourist" ticket, under the current Amtrak rule allowing a free stop-over if the connection is 23 hours or less. So, careful scheduling using the Star or Meteor could get a tourist on this itinerary: Miami -one day Orlando -one day Jacksonville -one day New Orleans -one day Houston -one day San Antonio (or any parts of this route segment).

Then add a corridor train Tucson-Maricopa (Phoenix)-L.A. making possible stop-overs in Arizona. Market a warm-weather transcontinental land cruise to rival the Canadian. Or to complement the Empire Builder: One way thru snow-covered mountains, down the Coast Starlight, one way thru the sunny desert to subtropical Florida. Pretty nice land-cruise package for certain foreign, and for U.S. tourists, too.

Or, don't wait for corridor trains.

Couldn't Amtrak partner with a tour operator, with a special rule, to allow 2 or 3 night stop-overs for, say, a nominal $50 each if reserved 14 days in advance? The tour operator then puts together and markets the package: pick up and return to the station, hotel room with breakfasts, a city tour, museum or attraction admission, dinner at a nice restaurant, the usual stuff. Daily service and a special rule would make such tour packages very attractive, and help to fill the long distance trains.

For all of those posters that conflate Maricopa with Phoenix, it just ain't so. Until Amtrak returns to Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa, no one in the Phoenix area would consider Maricopa to be a Phoenix stop.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

For all of those posters that conflate Maricopa with Phoenix, it just ain't so. Until Amtrak returns to Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa, no one in the Phoenix area would consider Maricopa to be a Phoenix stop.

Can anyone think of a feasible reroute of the SL to get to or closer to Phoenix? Is the old route still possible?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Then add a corridor train Tucson-Maricopa (Phoenix)-L.A. making possible stop-overs in Arizona. ...

For all of those posters that conflate Maricopa with Phoenix, it just ain't so. Until Amtrak returns to Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa, no one in the Phoenix area would consider Maricopa to be a Phoenix stop.

Look at the timetables, or as described on Amtrak.com, the SCHEDULES, it says "Maricopa, AZ (Phoenix)".

So I'm using Amtrak terminology on an Amtrak thread.

When the Sunset goes daily, limos and shuttle buses will connect the Maricopa station with various stops and hotels in the Phoenix Metro. So I'm sorry. Uuntil somebody pays to rebuild the line thru downtown Phoenix to points west -- and who's got a spare Billion or $5 Billion? -- Maricopa is all you got, like it or not.

 

[keelhauled]

Yeah but it's 35 miles from Maricopa and Phoenix. Regardless of what Amtrak wants you to believe that's like saying the Wilmington, Delaware station serves Philadelphia.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Yeah but it's 35 miles from Maricopa and Phoenix. Regardless of what Amtrak wants you to believe that's like saying the Wilmington, Delaware station serves Philadelphia.

If there were no station in Philly, and Amtrak said that the station serving Philly was Wilmington, then yes, I would say that Wilmington serves Philadelphia. Of course there is a station in Philly, while there isn't one in Phoenix itself. So your example is really pretty far out there.

I said I was using Amtrak's language in discussing Amtrak. "Maricopa, AZ (Phoenix)" is on every timetable for the Sunset and the Eagle. The Maricopa station is discussed in the PRIIA study from 6 or 7 years ago. It is discussed in the recent TIGER grant press release as serving Phoenix. I think everyone posting on this blog has a notion that Maricopa is some ways from the heart of downtown Phoenix, to the extent that there is such a thing. For myself, I actually have a first-hand acquaintance with Maricopa, having driven thru the town, and the city of Phoenix, some two years ago.

Do you suggest that I should not mention Maricopa and Phoenix in the same sentence? Do you want me to use the name of another station better serving Phoenix? For the foreseeable future, Maricopa serves the Phoenix market. Get over it.

Meanwhile, a glance at the SCHEDULES on Amtrak.com will show many other examples of Amtrak simply labeling its nearest station with the nearby, or not so near, city: Florence, SC (Myrtle Beach), Newton, KS (Wichita), Walnut Ridge, AR (Jonesboro), Waterloo, IN (Fort Wayne), Columbus, WI (Madison), Lynchburg, VA (Roanoke), and Osceola, IA (Des Moines) among others.

I'm not going to tell Amtrak to end that practice, and I'm not going to stop saying that Maricopa serves Phoenix.

 

[keelhauled]

Yeah but it's 35 miles from Maricopa and Phoenix. Regardless of what Amtrak wants you to believe that's like saying the Wilmington, Delaware station serves Philadelphia.

If there were no station in Philly, and Amtrak said that the station serving Philly was Wilmington, then yes, I would say that Wilmington serves Philadelphia. Of course there is a station in Philly, while there isn't one in Phoenix itself. So your example is really pretty far out there.

If you can't figure out that it was a distance comparison I'm not sure I can help you.

I said I was using Amtrak's language in discussing Amtrak. "Maricopa, AZ (Phoenix)" is on every timetable for the Sunset and the Eagle. The Maricopa station is discussed in the PRIIA study from 6 or 7 years ago. It is discussed in the recent TIGER grant press release as serving Phoenix. I think everyone posting on this blog has a notion that Maricopa is some ways from the heart of downtown Phoenix, to the extent that there is such a thing. For myself, I actually have a first-hand acquaintance with Maricopa, having driven thru the town, and the city of Phoenix, some two years ago.

Do you suggest that I should not mention Maricopa and Phoenix in the same sentence? Do you want me to use the name of another station better serving Phoenix? For the foreseeable future, Maricopa serves the Phoenix market. Get over it.

No it doesn't serve the Phoenix market, no matter how much Amtrak pretends it does. There are no public transportation links and the train arrives outside of rental car hours (if there are any convenient locations anyway). Phoenix locals can drive to the station, (and park in one of the whopping 29 parking spaces) but do tell, how is a visitor supposed to go anywhere? A taxi is $80-90 to Phoenix proper.

Meanwhile, a glance at the SCHEDULES on Amtrak.com will show many other examples of Amtrak simply labeling its nearest station with the nearby, or not so near, city: Florence, SC (Myrtle Beach), Newton, KS (Wichita), Walnut Ridge, AR (Jonesboro), Waterloo, IN (Fort Wayne), Columbus, WI (Madison), Lynchburg, VA (Roanoke), and Osceola, IA (Des Moines) among others.

I'm not going to tell Amtrak to end that practice, and I'm not going to stop saying that Maricopa serves Phoenix.

Doesn't mean it's not misleading in the extreme.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

There is the Thruway Bus (Greyhound) between Flagstaff and Phoenix but the hours are just about/in the graveyard shift. What's Flagstaff's station like at night?

 

[Anderson]

There is the Thruway Bus (Greyhound) between Flagstaff and Phoenix but the hours are just about/in the graveyard shift. What's Flagstaff's station like at night?

Not bad. Sleepy, but not a dump (it's definitely better than, say, SLC). I say this having waited for an eastbound Chief there in the past.

Also, downtown FLG isn't exactly a dump. It'll all be closed then (save perhaps a McDonalds or a stray diner) but it doesn't seem to be the sort of place to be worried about being, so to speak.

 

[Eric S]

Meanwhile, a glance at the SCHEDULES on Amtrak.com will show many other examples of Amtrak simply labeling its nearest station with the nearby, or not so near, city: Florence, SC (Myrtle Beach), Newton, KS (Wichita), Walnut Ridge, AR (Jonesboro), Waterloo, IN (Fort Wayne), Columbus, WI (Madison), Lynchburg, VA (Roanoke), and Osceola, IA (Des Moines) among others.

I'm not going to tell Amtrak to end that practice, and I'm not going to stop saying that Maricopa serves Phoenix.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for Woody to state that Maricopa serves the Phoenix market. It may not serve it well, but it is the nearest Phoenix-area station, it is located in the Phoenix metropolitan area (defined as Maricopa and Pinal counties), and as he mentions, Amtrak lists it as "Maricopa, AZ (Phoenix)".

None of this is to suggest it provides adequate service to the Phoenix market (but, then again, neither does a single tri-weekly train), but I don't think Woody would ever suggest that it does.

 

[neroden]

What I was trying to say was that I think there are a fair number of people who go "through" from the Texas Eagle to the western Sunset Limited *without being in the through car* -- changing seats, changing rooms. This has been documented anecdotally. They would show up as passengers going to San Antonio in the stats, but they wouldn't be going to San Antonio. If Amtrak happens to know that there are lots of these passengers, it would provide evidence supporting a rearrangement of service.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

What I was trying to say was that I think there are a fair number of people who go "through" from the Texas Eagle to the western Sunset Limited *without being in the through car* -- changing seats, changing rooms. This has been documented anecdotally. They would show up as passengers going to San Antonio in the stats, but they wouldn't be going to San Antonio. If Amtrak happens to know that there are lots of these passengers, it would provide evidence supporting a rearrangement of service.

So in other words a passenger would want to go from DAL-LAX but buy two separate tickets, one DAL-SAS and one SAS-LAX instead of just buying one ticket? Other than to stop over in SAS (I once stopped in SLC en route between CHI and EMY so I did essentially split the trip into two legs), why would anyone split a trip into two tickets with no intention of stopping in SAS? Is it some AGR trick? Also, could a passenger from NOL to LAX or from HOS to LAX do the same and split his/her ticket in two at SAS?

 

[Eric S]

Two tickets in the sense of a ticket for each train (Train 21 and Train 1), but not two separate reservations.

If you search DAL-LAX (for a day the Sunset Limited operates), you'll typically see Train 21 DAL-SAS connecting to Train 1 SAS-LAX, or Train 421 DAL-LAX.

 

[afigg]

Amtrak news release on an inspection train to run from New Orleans to Jacksonville in mid-February: AMTRAK AND SOUTHERN RAIL COMMISSION TO HOST AN INSPECTION TRAIN ACROSS GULF COAST.

CHICAGO -- Amtrak and the Southern Rail Commission (SRC) are conducting a tour to examine new ideas for intercity passenger rail by operating an Inspection Train from New Orleans to Jacksonville, Fla., on Thursday, Feb. 18, and Friday, Feb. 19.

The Inspection Train, hosted by Amtrak President and CEO Joe Boardman, will carry elected officials, industry representatives, community leaders and federal stakeholders. The goal of the invitation-only trip is to examine the existing CSX railroad infrastructure and to better understand rails economic, cultural and mobility opportunities. It will provide an unparalleled perspective on reintroducing intercity passenger rail along the Gulf Coast. The special train will be at each of these stations for 10 minutes before departing at the times below (all times local). Details can be found on the SRC website.

The schedule and more info is in the rest of the news release. Probably another 3 to 5 years of discussion and debate and if by some miracle, the states or local governments find some funding for it, but an extension of the CONO to FL could someday happen.

 

[jis]

They ran such a train down the FEC some five years back.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

They ran such a train down the FEC some five years back.

As I'd tell the story, that one worked out just fine. Amtrak said all the usual things about what an attractive route it would be, but due to the lack of equipment blah blah blah some sweet summer's day.

Then someone at FEC RR took a hard look at the numbers that Amtrak had shared, and a little light went on. "Oh. There's money to be made here." And thus was born All Aboard Florida. Soon the FEC will put trains on the stronger half of the route -- many more, faster, better, etc -- than Amtrak ever could have done.

So I hope this Inspection Train trip works out even half as well.

I'm encouraged that Boardman himself is leading the tour. He isn't riding along to look at more pine trees. Obviously he wants to make this one happen and thinks it can.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Another clue that Amtrak thinks this one can work. NARP has been beating the drum on restoration of service here for a couple of years. I used to be annoyed that NARP would waste the energy on something not going nowhere.

But now I think, if Amtrak hadn't been OK with NARP making a stir, someone would have nicely suggested to NARP's leadership that the group should work on something else. Then NARP would have quieted down about east of New Orleans. They have a relationship, after all.

 

[jis]

What makes one think that the NARP's beating the drum on something having any correlation with the potential of something working, beats me. But whatever ....

Of course this might legitimately make you wonder why I have been a patron member (or whatever they call it theses days) for so many years

 

[WoodyinNYC]

What makes one think that the NARP's beating the drum on something having any correlation with the potential of something working, beats me. But whatever ....

Of course this might legitimately make you wonder why I have been a patron member (or whatever they call it theses days) for so many years

Let's try it again. The dog didn't bark in the night.

If Amtrak thought it was bad for NARP to beat that particular drum, when they have a drum corp's worth of percussion to choose among, somebody would have let NARP know about it.

 

[Anderson]

They ran such a train down the FEC some five years back.

As I'd tell the story, that one worked out just fine. Amtrak said all the usual things about what an attractive route it would be, but due to the lack of equipment blah blah blah some sweet summer's day.

Then someone at FEC RR took a hard look at the numbers that Amtrak had shared, and a little light went on. "Oh. There's money to be made here." And thus was born All Aboard Florida. Soon the FEC will put trains on the stronger half of the route -- many more, faster, better, etc -- than Amtrak ever could have done.

So I hope this Inspection Train trip works out even half as well.

I'm encouraged that Boardman himself is leading the tour. He isn't riding along to look at more pine trees. Obviously he wants to make this one happen and thinks it can.

The collapse of Florida HSR didn't hurt, either. That's one place where, ironically, the government quite possibly was crowding out private investment: It wouldn't make sense for FEC to run a three-hour train trip from Miami to Orlando if the state was about to pop in a bullet train that could do it in two, now, would it? But once that was gone...

 

[neroden]

So in other words a passenger would want to go from DAL-LAX but buy two separate tickets, one DAL-SAS and one SAS-LAX instead of just buying one ticket? Other than to stop over in SAS (I once stopped in SLC en route between CHI and EMY so I did essentially split the trip into two legs), why would anyone split a trip into two tickets with no intention of stopping in SAS?

If the only through-car coach is *full*, additional passengers from DAL-LAX would have to buy two separate tickets. And change seats at SAS!

I know this sort of stuff happens when the only through-car sleeper is full!

Two tickets in the sense of a ticket for each train (Train 21 and Train 1), but not two separate reservations.

If you search DAL-LAX (for a day the Sunset Limited operates), you'll typically see Train 21 DAL-SAS connecting to Train 1 SAS-LAX, or Train 421 DAL-LAX.

Yes. If you book train 21 and train 1, you will probably have to change seats at SAS. But train 421 may be sold out.

 

[warrenwarner]

I was wondering if the people who live in the cities and towns along the route for The Sunset Limited (past New Orleans) were enthusiastic about train service possibly returning to their locations. They will be doing a test run on Feb. 18th and 19th. NARP is calling for local citizens to make a large showing to encourage government to invest in restoring service. I wonder how it will go.