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[OlympianHiawatha]

After being overcharged for your sleeper room for two

Overcharged relative to what? Sleeper travel is discretionary. It's like buying a Mercedes Benz instead of a Kia. If you see value in it at the price that's offered, fine. If not or if it's priced out of range, then don't buy it.

Amtrak should optimize revenue from sleepers just like airlines optimize revenue from first and business class.

I realize your going to take exception to this view, but your statement is a bit out of line as far as the way railroads used to consider sleeper travel. Sleepers were an option for the average travel who wished a bit of privacy and a way to sleep rather than in a seat. The cost was minor in comparison to the way Amtrak has taken your advice and pretended your getting some super luxurious accommodation and charged almost obscene pricing. The old magazines are full of ads showing grandmothers and small children taking the pullman to arrive well rested. Not as some expensive option to coach. The entire way in which train travel is now perceived has been changed making the difference between sleepers an coaches something that they never were in the past. Sort of the 1% taking advantage of the poor people in the coaches. What I have noticed being well below the official poverty level my self is that often very ordinary travelers are using the sleeper service. They are just being forced to pay far higher percentages of the cost than in the past. And in almost any comparison getting much less than travelers used to take for granted.

i pretty much agree with larry. looking in a 1977 guide i see that the sample fare for the amtrak eb from chi-sea, without meals, is $114 base fare and $188 for a roomette. i recall some pullman fares from a slightly earlier day, though i am too lazy to look them up right now, as having even less of a differential between rail fare and adding an accomodation

Absolutely right! To use a term common in this part of the country, the "crack spread" between Coach and First Class in not only rail travel but airline travel has widened substantially over the years to where it can now cost many multiples of the Coach fare to go First. This can be easily documented by looking through old Timetables that have the fares printed in them, back from a time when they weren't changing every 3 seconds.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

After being overcharged for your sleeper room for two

Overcharged relative to what? Sleeper travel is discretionary. It's like buying a Mercedes Benz instead of a Kia. If you see value in it at the price that's offered, fine. If not or if it's priced out of range, then don't buy it.

Amtrak should optimize revenue from sleepers just like airlines optimize revenue from first and business class.

I realize your going to take exception to this view, but your statement is a bit out of line as far as the way railroads used to consider sleeper travel. Sleepers were an option for the average travel who wished a bit of privacy and a way to sleep rather than in a seat. The cost was minor in comparison to the way Amtrak has taken your advice and pretended your getting some super luxurious accommodation and charged almost obscene pricing. The old magazines are full of ads showing grandmothers and small children taking the pullman to arrive well rested. Not as some expensive option to coach. The entire way in which train travel is now perceived has been changed making the difference between sleepers an coaches something that they never were in the past. Sort of the 1% taking advantage of the poor people in the coaches. What I have noticed being well below the official poverty level my self is that often very ordinary travelers are using the sleeper service. They are just being forced to pay far higher percentages of the cost than in the past. And in almost any comparison getting much less than travelers used to take for granted.

i pretty much agree with larry. looking in a 1977 guide i see that the sample fare for the amtrak eb from chi-sea, without meals, is $114 base fare and $188 for a roomette. i recall some pullman fares from a slightly earlier day, though i am too lazy to look them up right now, as having even less of a differential between rail fare and adding an accomodation

I wouldn't advise agreeing with Larry because he is factually wrong. My mom bought a BMW 3-Series in 1977- New- for $7800

In the dollars where a stripped 3-series costs $32,000, that 1977 Coach seat is $445.98 and the Pullman roomette is $735.47 and did not include 6 full meals. The Roomette hasn't gotten a lot more expensive- the coach seat has gotten a lot cheaper.

 

[yarrow]

After being overcharged for your sleeper room for two

Overcharged relative to what? Sleeper travel is discretionary. It's like buying a Mercedes Benz instead of a Kia. If you see value in it at the price that's offered, fine. If not or if it's priced out of range, then don't buy it.

Amtrak should optimize revenue from sleepers just like airlines optimize revenue from first and business class.

I realize your going to take exception to this view, but your statement is a bit out of line as far as the way railroads used to consider sleeper travel. Sleepers were an option for the average travel who wished a bit of privacy and a way to sleep rather than in a seat. The cost was minor in comparison to the way Amtrak has taken your advice and pretended your getting some super luxurious accommodation and charged almost obscene pricing. The old magazines are full of ads showing grandmothers and small children taking the pullman to arrive well rested. Not as some expensive option to coach. The entire way in which train travel is now perceived has been changed making the difference between sleepers an coaches something that they never were in the past. Sort of the 1% taking advantage of the poor people in the coaches. What I have noticed being well below the official poverty level my self is that often very ordinary travelers are using the sleeper service. They are just being forced to pay far higher percentages of the cost than in the past. And in almost any comparison getting much less than travelers used to take for granted.

i pretty much agree with larry. looking in a 1977 guide i see that the sample fare for the amtrak eb from chi-sea, without meals, is $114 base fare and $188 for a roomette. i recall some pullman fares from a slightly earlier day, though i am too lazy to look them up right now, as having even less of a differential between rail fare and adding an accomodation

I wouldn't advise agreeing with Larry because he is factually wrong. My mom bought a BMW 3-Series in 1977- New- for $7800

In the dollars where a stripped 3-series costs $32,000, that 1977 Coach seat is $445.98 and the Pullman roomette is $735.47 and did not include 6 full meals. The Roomette hasn't gotten a lot more expensive- the coach seat has gotten a lot cheaper.

i always agree with larry. my mom drove a ford pinto

 

[Green Maned Lion]

So did my dad, actually. Math facts are math facts. There is the correct answer and the wrong answer. The correct answer is that indexed to inflation, sleeper prices have remained steady or went down slightly, and coach prices are down substantially. I won't argue the point that Americans have become substantially poorer, as well- but that isn't Amtraks fault.

 

[me_little_me]

I wouldn't advise agreeing with Larry because he is factually wrong. My mom bought a BMW 3-Series in 1977- New- for $7800
In the dollars where a stripped 3-series costs $32,000, that 1977 Coach seat is $445.98 and the Pullman roomette is $735.47 and did not include 6 full meals. The Roomette hasn't gotten a lot more expensive- the coach seat has gotten a lot cheaper.

Apples and oranges. There is a HUGE difference between a '77 car and car of today. More features are standard and far more didn't exist. These all added to the rising cost whether they be safety items mandated by government or fancy speakers and other items. You pay more but the far higher vehicle quality, the more included features, the safety, security, engine, mileage and drive-ability improvements make the differences far less than just comparing a '77 car to a 2014 car of the same or similar model.

As to train cost differences - service is not any better and the food, while included, is of much lower quality and choice. I don't think speed has improved overall either so the only comparison would be against the cost of living.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Yeah. Back then BMWs were quality German cars worth the premium over a Pinto in durability and general excellence- my mothers was her regular driver until 2001. Now they are badly built hunks of garbage, and the only difference between a porcupine and a BMW... I'll leave that to your imagination.

So no, your argument that safety has resulted in cost increases in excess of COL is inaccurate, least of which is the fact that a current BMW 3 stripper is $32k and $7800 back then is $32,498.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Discussing any particular car - BMW, pinto, or whatever, is not relevant. Inflation is what it is, and train fares may have gone up or down with inflation, regardless of what any car may have done. When you adjust actual dollars for inflation, $1 in 1977 is worth $4 today.

So, in 1977, if a trip on the EB cost $114 in coach in $188, you could adjust for inflation and say that a seat in coach on the EB from CHI-SEA "ought" to cost $456, and a roomette "ought" to cost $752.

I just looked at some EB trips several months out - I chose a Tuesday in October to get a low bucket - and found a coach fare of $174 and a roomette of $578.

So, if you adjust for inflation, coach fares are only about 38% of what they "ought" to be, and roomettes are 77% of what they "ought" to be.

More interestingly, in 1977 the roomette fare was 65% higher than the coach fare. In 2014, the roomette fare is 332% higher than the coach fare.

Conclusion: adjusted for inflation, coach fare is much cheaper, and roomettes are somewhat cheaper. But the spread between roomettes and coach has gotten a LOT wider over that same time.

I think that the price of cars in relation to rail fares is less relevant than the price of air fare. Air fare has also dropped approximately 50% when adjusted for inflation (I got those numbers here).

That same article says that air travel now costs approximately 16 cents per mile. Since Chicago and Seattle are 2205 miles apart, an air ticket between those two cities ought to cost about $352 each way. I know that plane tickets between these cities can be found for much less, but again this is just a sample city pair, so let's assume the averages still apply.

Amtrak's fares make more sense in light of that number - coach is about 50% cheaper than a plane ticket, and a roomette costs about 50% more. Most people in coach (assuming they have an airline alternative) choose Amtrak because it's cheaper than flying, and most people in a roomette are willing to pay more than a train coach seat because it's more comfortable and "fun" than coach in an airplane (in both cases, this presumes that the passengers have the time for train travel).

This does give some credence to earlier statements by Amtrak that fares are determined by the Marketing department, and not truly by the cost of providing the service.

 

[seat38a]

After being overcharged for your sleeper room for two

Overcharged relative to what? Sleeper travel is discretionary. It's like buying a Mercedes Benz instead of a Kia. If you see value in it at the price that's offered, fine. If not or if it's priced out of range, then don't buy it.

Amtrak should optimize revenue from sleepers just like airlines optimize revenue from first and business class.

I realize your going to take exception to this view, but your statement is a bit out of line as far as the way railroads used to consider sleeper travel. Sleepers were an option for the average travel who wished a bit of privacy and a way to sleep rather than in a seat. The cost was minor in comparison to the way Amtrak has taken your advice and pretended your getting some super luxurious accommodation and charged almost obscene pricing. The old magazines are full of ads showing grandmothers and small children taking the pullman to arrive well rested. Not as some expensive option to coach. The entire way in which train travel is now perceived has been changed making the difference between sleepers an coaches something that they never were in the past. Sort of the 1% taking advantage of the poor people in the coaches. What I have noticed being well below the official poverty level my self is that often very ordinary travelers are using the sleeper service. They are just being forced to pay far higher percentages of the cost than in the past. And in almost any comparison getting much less than travelers used to take for granted.

i pretty much agree with larry. looking in a 1977 guide i see that the sample fare for the amtrak eb from chi-sea, without meals, is $114 base fare and $188 for a roomette. i recall some pullman fares from a slightly earlier day, though i am too lazy to look them up right now, as having even less of a differential between rail fare and adding an accomodation

If you look up the current equivalent value of $114 adjusted for inflation in 1977 is equivalent to $445.98

I did a random search on EB for November 11. The value fare is $156.50 and a roommette is $510.60. $188 in 1977 dollars is $735.47 so at current costs, everyone is pretty much robbing Amtrak. For everyone who keep saying that the cost of a sleeper is inflated compared to the old days, well in the old days, you paid a lot more for coach when you look at the value adjusted for inflation. Take it how you may but when you convert it to todays dollars, its still cheaper than it was back then.

 

[seat38a]

Discussing any particular car - BMW, pinto, or whatever, is not relevant. Inflation is what it is, and train fares may have gone up or down with inflation, regardless of what any car may have done. When you adjust actual dollars for inflation, $1 in 1977 is worth $4 today.

So, in 1977, if a trip on the EB cost $114 in coach in $188, you could adjust for inflation and say that a seat in coach on the EB from CHI-SEA "ought" to cost $456, and a roomette "ought" to cost $752.

I just looked at some EB trips several months out - I chose a Tuesday in October to get a low bucket - and found a coach fare of $174 and a roomette of $578.

So, if you adjust for inflation, coach fares are only about 38% of what they "ought" to be, and roomettes are 77% of what they "ought" to be.

More interestingly, in 1977 the roomette fare was 65% higher than the coach fare. In 2014, the roomette fare is 332% higher than the coach fare.

Conclusion: adjusted for inflation, coach fare is much cheaper, and roomettes are somewhat cheaper. But the spread between roomettes and coach has gotten a LOT wider over that same time.

I think that the price of cars in relation to rail fares is less relevant than the price of air fare. Air fare has also dropped approximately 50% when adjusted for inflation (I got those numbers here).

That same article says that air travel now costs approximately 16 cents per mile. Since Chicago and Seattle are 2205 miles apart, an air ticket between those two cities ought to cost about $352 each way. I know that plane tickets between these cities can be found for much less, but again this is just a sample city pair, so let's assume the averages still apply.

Amtrak's fares make more sense in light of that number - coach is about 50% cheaper than a plane ticket, and a roomette costs about 50% more. Most people in coach (assuming they have an airline alternative) choose Amtrak because it's cheaper than flying, and most people in a roomette are willing to pay more than a train coach seat because it's more comfortable and "fun" than coach in an airplane (in both cases, this presumes that the passengers have the time for train travel).

This does give some credence to earlier statements by Amtrak that fares are determined by the Marketing department, and not truly by the cost of providing the service.

Wow you beat me to it!

 

[boxcarsyix]

Getting back to the menus, I don't have an issue with AMTRAK not listing the specific items on the menu. The LSA usually announces what the pasta, fish, and specials are. Printing menus costs money, not having set options allows flexability as well as much needed variation from train to train or trip to trip.

 

[yarrow]

for some reason, the calculation by mr roberts in his above post that in 1977 a roomette was around 65% higher than coach and today it is 332% higher seems the salient point to me. by the way, have you noticed that amtrak no longer includes sample fares in their national timetable?

 

[Paulus]

for some reason, the calculation by mr roberts in his above post that in 1977 a roomette was around 65% higher than coach and today it is 332% higher seems the salient point to me. by the way, have you noticed that amtrak no longer includes sample fares in their national timetable?

That's because they no longer have fixed fares for most routes. There's also an issue with fare flexibility when you've advertised fares that way.

 

[seat38a]

for some reason, the calculation by mr roberts in his above post that in 1977 a roomette was around 65% higher than coach and today it is 332% higher seems the salient point to me. by the way, have you noticed that amtrak no longer includes sample fares in their national timetable?

Key point also is it is 332% higher because the price of coach is a lot cheaper now than it was in 1977.

1977

Coach: $114

Roomette: $188

1977 Adjusted For Inflation

Coach: $445.98

Roomette: $735.47

2014

Coach: $156.50

Roomette: $510.60

 

[yarrow]

for some reason, the calculation by mr roberts in his above post that in 1977 a roomette was around 65% higher than coach and today it is 332% higher seems the salient point to me. by the way, have you noticed that amtrak no longer includes sample fares in their national timetable?

Key point also is it is 332% higher because the price of coach is a lot cheaper now than it was in 1977.

1977

Coach: $114

Roomette: $188

1977 Adjusted For Inflation

Coach: $445.98

Roomette: $735.47

2014

Coach: $156.50

Roomette: $510.60

as larry h. said in his above post, he felt, as do i, that in 1977 and more especially before amtrak, the average traveler could consider pullman accomodations (i know my mom did, she would board, find the conductor and see what was available). i don't think that is, so much, the case today. i'm not sure simply looking at inflation captures the entire picture

 

[seat38a]

for some reason, the calculation by mr roberts in his above post that in 1977 a roomette was around 65% higher than coach and today it is 332% higher seems the salient point to me. by the way, have you noticed that amtrak no longer includes sample fares in their national timetable?

Key point also is it is 332% higher because the price of coach is a lot cheaper now than it was in 1977.

1977

Coach: $114

Roomette: $188

1977 Adjusted For Inflation

Coach: $445.98

Roomette: $735.47

2014

Coach: $156.50

Roomette: $510.60

as larry h. said in his above post, he felt, as do i, that in 1977 and more especially before amtrak, the average traveler could consider pullman accomodations (i know my mom did, she would board, find the conductor and see what was available). i don't think that is, so much, the case today. i'm not sure simply looking at inflation captures the entire picture

If you were traveling for $445 equivalent coach back then and upgrading for equivalent of $290 extra, and coach now costs $156.50 in todays dollars, yes inflation captures the entire picture. People like to talk about the good old days with aviation and railroad but in the good old days, when you adjust for inflation, it cost a lot more money in the good old days. From the other aviation forum that I follow.

In 1975 SFO - ORD cost $140.00 adjusted for inflation 2014 $616.92 I found the same route on United for $201.00 taxes and all included. Rail price and airfares have not kept up with inflation but labor has gone up and so has fuel and everything else. This is why seats get smaller, nickel and dimming, and amenities all go buy buy. The cost of the roommette still costs less in todays dollars than it did when Larry's mom paid for it.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm one of the old fogeys that rode trains in the old days, mostly in Coach since Pullmans fares and meals in the diner were expensive for the average person! Yes service and the food might have been better, and there certainly were lots more trains,but I mostly rode Day Coach on Milk Run and Mail Trains and, took food and drink with me on the trips!

I have no problem with the inflation formulas used comparing yesterdays prices with today's but I may surprise some when I say that all things considered THESE are the Good Old Days! when you consider what you get Now for your dollar compared to Yesteryear!

 

[seat38a]

I'm one of the old fogeys that rode trains in the old days, mostly in Coach since Pullmans fares and meals in the diner were expensive for the average person! Yes service and the food might have been better, and there certainly were lots more trains,but I mostly rode Day Coach on Milk Run and Mail Trains and, took food and drink with me on the trips!

I have no problem with the inflation formulas used comparing yesterdays prices with today's but I may surprise some when I say that all things considered THESE are the Good Old Days! when you consider what you get Now for your dollar compared to Yesteryear!

My dad and my grandmother tell me nothing from the past beats the present. They really don't long for the "Good Old Days" as they say there were more Bad than good back then.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Sounds like you're one of those youngsters who realizes that those who have lived awhile have something valuable to share that was gained by experiencing life!

 

[neroden]

So, if you adjust for inflation, coach fares are only about 38% of what they "ought" to be, and roomettes are 77% of what they "ought" to be.

On the Empire Builder. NOT on every train.

Run the numbers for the Lake Shore Limited -- which I did in another thread -- and you'll find that the sleeper fares are right where they "ought" to be after inflation adjustment. And rising. You'll get similar numbers on the Silver Meteor.

(The coach seats in the east have gotten cheaper after inflation adjustment. But not by nearly as much as they have out west.)

The Western trains have been unable to charge nearly as much as the Eastern trains. This is important to remember.

The Eastern trains are a viable enterprise with no more subsidy than a bus route. ("Eastern" for this purpose probably can go as far west as Minneapolis and Denver, and would go as far as Texas if speeds were faster). The Western transcontinentals, by contrast, exist largely to get US Senate votes.

What I particularly hate is that we get attacks on "long distance trains" based on the finances of the Western trains, and Amtrak reacts by damaging service in the East. It doesn't make much sense, but it's happened repeatedly.

 

[seat38a]

So, if you adjust for inflation, coach fares are only about 38% of what they "ought" to be, and roomettes are 77% of what they "ought" to be.

On the Empire Builder. NOT on every train.

Run the numbers for the Lake Shore Limited -- which I did in another thread -- and you'll find that the sleeper fares are right where they "ought" to be after inflation adjustment. And rising. You'll get similar numbers on the Silver Meteor.

(The coach seats in the east have gotten cheaper after inflation adjustment. But not by nearly as much as they have out west.)

The Western trains have been unable to charge nearly as much as the Eastern trains. This is important to remember.

The Eastern trains are a viable enterprise with no more subsidy than a bus route. ("Eastern" for this purpose probably can go as far west as Minneapolis and Denver, and would go as far as Texas if speeds were faster). The Western transcontinentals, by contrast, exist largely to get US Senate votes.

What I particularly hate is that we get attacks on "long distance trains" based on the finances of the Western trains, and Amtrak reacts by damaging service in the East. It doesn't make much sense, but it's happened repeatedly.

Anyone have past numbers to reference? I went by EB because Larry gave us figures for the 70's.

 

[Paulus]

Anyone have past numbers to reference? I went by EB because Larry gave us figures for the 70's.

The older timetables have it near the back. So, for example, on A-Day, New York-Chicago was $51.25 in coach or $98.11 in a roomette. In 2014 dollars, that's $300 for coach and $574.30 for a roomette. Going off Amsnag, on the Lake Shore Limited, for the month of August, the fares NYP-CHI are $101 for coach and range from $367 to $520 for a roomette. Starting tomorrow, the fares range $101-159 and $445-520 with several sold out dates.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Anyone have past numbers to reference? I went by EB because Larry gave us figures for the 70's.

The older timetables have it near the back. So, for example, on A-Day, New York-Chicago was $51.25 in coach or $98.11 in a roomette. In 2014 dollars, that's $300 for coach and $574.30 for a roomette. Going off Amsnag, on the Lake Shore Limited, for the month of August, the fares NYP-CHI are $101 for coach and range from $367 to $520 for a roomette. Starting tomorrow, the fares range $101-159 and $445-520 with several sold out dates.

These numbers confirm the widening spread which really has nothing to do with inflation. In 1970 the spread for this example was less than 2X and today, according to those figures it is anywhere from 3.5X to just over 5X. And of course we now have these damn buckets to deal with, something that did not exist in earlier days.

 

[Paulus]

These numbers confirm the widening spread which really has nothing to do with inflation. In 1970 the spread for this example was less than 2X and today, according to those figures it is anywhere from 3.5X to just over 5X. And of course we now have these damn buckets to deal with, something that did not exist in earlier days.

They also confirm that prices have not kept up with inflation, drastically so in the case of coach fares.

 

[TraneMan]

Really was bummed out the French Toast were taken off.. :-( I was looking forward it on our recent trip...

We did have China with our dinner both ways.

I think on our trip out to WAS, they didn't stock the train, on the 2nd day lunch, all they had was just hamburger and veggie burger, and the 3rd day (Delayed) they had it again (Out of toppings), or a ham sandwich.

 

[Anderson]

I ran similar numbers based on SCL's fares from the late 60s and Amtrak's present fares. I'd need intermediate data points, but in general the pattern has been towards coach fares being subsidized (to compete with deregulated airline fares) while sleeper fares remain roughly where they were (subject to revenue management practices).