Union Stations???

[the_traveler]

A small correction - but a pet peeve of mine. It is Grand Central TERMINAL, not Grand Central Station! The Terminal is the great building built by NYC. The station is a Post Office no where near GCT! (And it is called a Terminal because all tracks dead end at GCT. There are no thru tracks at all.)

And the only "Union Station" which UP went to that I can think of offhand is PDX Union Station.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

A small correction - but a pet peeve of mine. It is Grand Central TERMINAL, not Grand Central Station! The Terminal is the great building built by NYC. The station is a Post Office no where near GCT! (And it is called a Terminal because all tracks dead end at GCT. There are no thru tracks at all.)

Apologies... I did know that, but since most use the terms interchangeably (without knowledge of what "terminal" means in that context), I just got used to using it myself... Just as with NJ Transit's Hoboken "Terminal" I guess CUS cannot be considered a "Terminal" since there is a thru track, although I don't know of any trains currently that do pass through and not terminate there. C & NW (now Ogilvie) is a terminal and I recall it being referred to as "Chicago Terminal" in train announcements.

 

[JayPea]

Spokane's Union Station did serve the Union Pacific, as well as the Milwaukee Railroad, which had trackage rights over UP's tracks through Spokane. Both railroads ran separate passenger trains, however, as the Milwaukee's Olympian Hiawatha was served by Union Station and the UP's City of Hinkle was served by Union Station as well. Also, the Spokane International Railway, which was a short line between Spokane and the Canadian Pacific mainline at Yahk, BC, used Union Station for its passenger service as well. Union Station along with the Great Northern Station, whose Clock Tower remains a major focal point of Spokane's Riverfront Park, was razed in the early 1970's to make room for Spokane's World's Fair, Expo '74.

 

[George Harris]

Here is a picture I took in the 50's from Roosevelt Road of the Southwind that Bill Mentions in his post above. It had ACL engines this particuloar day.

It could have had PRR, too.

I have always been facinated by the Florida fast three. Taht is, City of Miami, ICRR, CofG, ACL; South Wind, Pennsy, L&N, ACL; and Dixie Flagler, C&EI, L&N, NC&St.L, ACL. There was no station common to all three north of Jacksonville. Each one originated at a different station in Chicago. All three stopped at Waycross GA, but the South Wind not at the same place as the other two, despite all being ACL by that time. The CofM and SW both went through Birmingham Al, but stopped at different station. The SW and DF both stopped at Union Station in Nashville, but came and left on different routes.

Only the route of the Dixie Flagler is all still existing, and it was the first of the three to be discontinued. The route is highly congested making the 1950's schedule impossible. All of the South Wind route from Indianapolis is still in place, but some of it would need serious upgrading. The route of the CofM, which was probably the heavies used, and most reliable in schedule keeping, has had several segments abandoned.

In the early 60's I used to see teh CofM come through Martin TN in the wintertime with 20 or more cars behind four E units.

 

[the_traveler]

CUS does have a thru track (2 IIRC) so it could Not be called a Terminal. There are no trains thru CUS, but those tracks are used by Amtrak and METRA trains to get to and from the north tracks to the yards on the south side of CUS.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The name "Union Station" referred to the fact that the station was built for the use of a "union" of multiple railroads.

Which, of course, makes perfect logical sense. I guess the PRR had a great deal of pull in NYC to get that station named NY Penn, as opposed to NY Union Station...

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

Also the Pennsylvania RR built the Hotel Pennsylvania across the street.

 

[MikefromCrete]

OK, the various Pennsylvania Stations were built by and named for the Pennsylvania Railroad. Since the PRR owned the buildings they could name them anything they wanted. No political clout was involved (although I'm sure the PRR had plenty of clout out east).

Union Pacific had nothing to do with the various Union Stations around the country. The name indicated that the station was served by a number of railroads. Sometimes, one railroad owned the station, at other place, an independent company operated the station. Chicago Union Station Company was owned by the PRR, Chicago Burlington and Quincy and the Milwaukee Road. The Alton was a tenant.

Dearborn Station in Chicago was owned by the Chicago and Western Indiana Railroad, a small terminal company that until the 1950's operated commuter trains from Dearborn to Dolton, IL. Dearborn's tenants included the mighty Santa Fe Railroad, along with lesser lights Chicago and Eastern Illinois, Wabash, Grand Trunk Western, Erie (later Erie-Lackawanna) and Monon.

 

[TampAGS]

The name "Union Station" referred to the fact that the station was built for the use of a "union" of multiple railroads.

The same concept has been used for other modes of transport. Tampa at one time had a Union Bus Station in addition to Tampa Union Station, the train station which remains in operation today. I'm not certain which Bus companies operated out Union Bus Station, but Tampa Union Station was built by the Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard Air Line, and Tampa Northern Railroad companies.

It's interesting that the "Union" name has never been used (to my knowledge) for airports. I guess because airlines have rarely been required to provide their own infrastructure.

 

[the_traveler]

Just guessing, but could Tampa's Union Bus Station been served by Greyhound, Trailways and other smaller bus lines?

And you're right about airports, although many were/are called "International Airport" - even if they had no international flights! An exception was Albany (NY). It's airport was called Albany County Airport, even though it had international flights. There were 2 reasons for this. Number 1 - It was owned and operated by Albany County, thus the regional name. Number 2 - There was a local business named Albany International. The airport (ALB) is now called Albany International Airport! (I don't know how it was resolved, I've been out of the area for 20 years.)

 

[MrFSS]

Just guessing, but could Tampa's Union Bus Station been served by Greyhound, Trailways and other smaller bus lines?

And you're right about airports, although many were/are called "International Airport" - even if they had no international flights! An exception was Albany (NY). It's airport was called Albany County Airport, even though it had international flights. There were 2 reasons for this. Number 1 - It was owned and operated by Albany County, thus the regional name. Number 2 - There was a local business named Albany International. The airport (ALB) is now called Albany International Airport! (I don't know how it was resolved, I've been out of the area for 20 years.)

Dave - as I understand it an International Airport is one where you can check bags that will eventually be on an international flight. That is, the starting airport you leave from doesn't have any international flights but you can fly to another airport, change planes and that second plane can go international.

I think many years ago if this was the case you had to reclaim your bags at the second airport and recheck them for the international flight just as you have to many times coming back into the states. Flying away is much easier than coming home.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Just guessing, but could Tampa's Union Bus Station been served by Greyhound, Trailways and other smaller bus lines?

And you're right about airports, although many were/are called "International Airport" - even if they had no international flights! An exception was Albany (NY). It's airport was called Albany County Airport, even though it had international flights. There were 2 reasons for this. Number 1 - It was owned and operated by Albany County, thus the regional name. Number 2 - There was a local business named Albany International. The airport (ALB) is now called Albany International Airport! (I don't know how it was resolved, I've been out of the area for 20 years.)

Dave - as I understand it an International Airport is one where you can check bags that will eventually be on an international flight. That is, the starting airport you leave from doesn't have any international flights but you can fly to another airport, change planes and that second plane can go international.

I think many years ago if this was the case you had to reclaim your bags at the second airport and recheck them for the international flight just as you have to many times coming back into the states. Flying away is much easier than coming home.

I could see this working for "outbound" flights. But I thought that for "inbound" flights, all baggage must clear CBP at the first port of arrival for the vehicle, even if the pax's journey continues beyond that. This, because the vehicle itself must also clear CBP and could probably not be the same one used for the continued journey (at least in the case of aircraft). Trains might be a little different, of course.

 

[MrFSS]

Just guessing, but could Tampa's Union Bus Station been served by Greyhound, Trailways and other smaller bus lines?

And you're right about airports, although many were/are called "International Airport" - even if they had no international flights! An exception was Albany (NY). It's airport was called Albany County Airport, even though it had international flights. There were 2 reasons for this. Number 1 - It was owned and operated by Albany County, thus the regional name. Number 2 - There was a local business named Albany International. The airport (ALB) is now called Albany International Airport! (I don't know how it was resolved, I've been out of the area for 20 years.)

Dave - as I understand it an International Airport is one where you can check bags that will eventually be on an international flight. That is, the starting airport you leave from doesn't have any international flights but you can fly to another airport, change planes and that second plane can go international.

I think many years ago if this was the case you had to reclaim your bags at the second airport and recheck them for the international flight just as you have to many times coming back into the states. Flying away is much easier than coming home.

I could see this working for "outbound" flights. But I thought that for "inbound" flights, all baggage must clear CBP at the first port of arrival for the vehicle, even if the pax's journey continues beyond that. This, because the vehicle itself must also clear CBP and could probably not be the same one used for the continued journey (at least in the case of aircraft). Trains might be a little different, of course.

Yep - the first US airport the incoming flight from outside the US is where you have to clear customs and Immigration, with your luggage, and then recheck it on any continuing flight. There is an exception. Certain Canadian cities, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, etc have the US customs and immigration right in the departing airport. You clear it there and they "lock" you in a secure place that essentially becomes US soil. Once you are in there the only place you can go is onto the plane.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Just guessing, but could Tampa's Union Bus Station been served by Greyhound, Trailways and other smaller bus lines?

And you're right about airports, although many were/are called "International Airport" - even if they had no international flights! An exception was Albany (NY). It's airport was called Albany County Airport, even though it had international flights. There were 2 reasons for this. Number 1 - It was owned and operated by Albany County, thus the regional name. Number 2 - There was a local business named Albany International. The airport (ALB) is now called Albany International Airport! (I don't know how it was resolved, I've been out of the area for 20 years.)

Dave - as I understand it an International Airport is one where you can check bags that will eventually be on an international flight. That is, the starting airport you leave from doesn't have any international flights but you can fly to another airport, change planes and that second plane can go international.

I think many years ago if this was the case you had to reclaim your bags at the second airport and recheck them for the international flight just as you have to many times coming back into the states. Flying away is much easier than coming home.

I could see this working for "outbound" flights. But I thought that for "inbound" flights, all baggage must clear CBP at the first port of arrival for the vehicle, even if the pax's journey continues beyond that. This, because the vehicle itself must also clear CBP and could probably not be the same one used for the continued journey (at least in the case of aircraft). Trains might be a little different, of course.

Yep - the first US airport the incoming flight from outside the US is where you have to clear customs and Immigration, with your luggage, and then recheck it on any continuing flight. There is an exception. Certain Canadian cities, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, etc have the US customs and immigration right in the departing airport. You clear it there and they "lock" you in a secure place that essentially becomes US soil. Once you are in there the only place you can go is onto the plane.

Yep... I did that at Pearson (Toronto) once. Back when Immigration and Customs were still separate. The INS guy was not the most pleasant person in the world. <_< Here's the complete list of those stations.

Not to stray too far off topic, but if you really want to hear a CBP "horror story," try diving in the St. Lawrence River in the 1000 islands region (i.e. Brockville, Ont.). Some of the wrecks are on the Canadian side. Some of them on the US side. Some of the better wrecks make it more desirable to stay (if only temporarily) on the Canadian side. But, if you want to dive the US wrecks from the Canadian side, you have to clear CBP each & every day, and re-clear Canadian Customs as well!

Fortunately, the Canadian dive shops have a nice set up, though. You have to tell them in advance how many (and which days) you will be diving US wrecks. You give them your Passport #, etc. In turn, they send lists to the CBP station in advance to "pre-clear" you. On the morning of your dives, you must wait until the CBP station opens at 10am ET. All boats being seen as coming from a Canadian port (tourist boats, dive boats, any boat - and trust me, they know who's who), must first arrive at the CBP checkpoint (via a specified route along the river) on Heart Island, Alexandria Bay (the island that has the "Castle Dracula" building on it). Since we're pre-cleared, the CBP agent actually comes out to the boat, checks our passports, and then sends us on our way. But, if there's a question, they could pull any one of us off for additional inspection. Never wear a hat or sunglasses during this inspection. Once cleared, you have to leave the island via a specified route. From then on, you must stay on the US territorial water side of the St. Lawrence (and the CBP patrols it in high speed cigarette boats), until you are ready to return (again via a specified route) to Canada. You have to call CBP by cell phone, prior to leaving US territorial waters. You must then call Canadian Customs on arrival in Canadian waters and clear by phone.

And do it all again the next day (and every day) you want to dive US Wrecks from Canada.

 

[Trogdor]

I thought that "International" airports just meant the airport had the facilities to handle international flights (not that they necessarily do handle them). I'd never heard about checking bags from a specific airport to an international destination being an issue.

 

[Anderson]

You had a number of "Central Stations" associated with the NYC...but sometimes it was also a location description. IIRC, there were at least one or two cities where "Central Station" wasn't served by the NYC even though the NYC served that city (example: Chicago).

Likewise, as noted there were a number of Penn Stations served by the Pennsy. Other stations were often named for streets (Richmond has Main Street Station and Staples Mill Road, and used to have both Broad Street and Hull Street), people (FEC's Flagler Station in Miami), locations (some of the non-NYC "Central Stations" leap to mind), or the railroad serving them (Chicago's "C&NW Station").

I'm just wondering...I know that at least three of the downtown stations are still used in Chicago, but how many (and which ones) are still used? IIRC, it's Union, CNW, and one other along the South Shore Line that are still in use for commuter services.

Trog: You're dead on. "International" just means the presence of a customs office, I think, thereby in theory allowing international flights to use the airport if one of the lines really wants to run a flight in.

And...good grief, I am developing a deep, deep dislike of US customs policy and its ilk.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

I'm just wondering...I know that at least three of the downtown stations are still used in Chicago, but how many (and which ones) are still used? IIRC, it's Union, CNW, and one other along the South Shore Line that are still in use for commuter services.

I believe the "La Salle St." station is still open (serving the METRA "Rock Island" division), right?

 

[Trogdor]

There are four terminals (terminals in the sense that trains terminate there, not in the sense that there aren't any through tracks, though for three of them, there aren't) still in use in Chicago: Union, Ogilvie (North Western), LaSalle, and Millennium (Randolph). There are also two other downtown stations served by Metra: Van Buren and Roosevelt (both on the electric line).

 

[trainman74]

It's interesting that the "Union" name has never been used (to my knowledge) for airports. I guess because airlines have rarely been required to provide their own infrastructure.

The Burbank, California airport was "Union Air Terminal" from 1934-1940 (but it was not union in the same sense as a "Union Station" -- it was originally built solely by the Boeing/United Aircraft/United Airlines holding company).

At the time, it was in competition with Grand Central Airport in Glendale.

 

[TampAGS]

Just guessing, but could Tampa's Union Bus Station been served by Greyhound, Trailways and other smaller bus lines?

Actually, at the time, the "Greyhound" and "Trailways" brands did not yet exist, or at least not in Florida. There were two successive Union Bus Stations in Tampa to my knowledge, with the last one opening in 1926. Old photos show White Bus Line (formerly White Stage Line) and Florida Motor Lines, while a list here of old bus routes shows several to/from Tampa by Tamiami Trail Tours and an actual Union Bus Company.

 

Florida Motor Lines became Florida Greyhound Lines in 1946, while Tamiami Trail Tours became part of Trailways in 1938. I don't know what year Union Bus Station #2 closed, but it's probably the case that it was serviced by the Greyhound and Trailways brands in its later years.