VHSR Luncheon Update

[Anderson]

You could probably actually split 66/67 at WAS. As things stand, the train arrives in WAS with about an hour of padding NB (it arrives in WAS at 2120 and departs at 2200...and this padding was actually reduced a few years ago; it used to arrive at 2046 and depart at 2200). Southbound, the 0705 arrival in WAS and 0730 departure wouldn't need much adjusting. Arranging for the NB Lynchburg/Charlotte section to arrive in WAS at 2030 or so wouldn't be a stretch. That would put the departure from CLT around 1230 NB (and the departure from LYH at 1800 or so), and 66/67 is possibly the least time-sensitive train in the system in terms of intermediate stops. SB, a departure from WAS around 0730 would translate into an 1100 arrival in Lynchburg and 1530 in Charlotte.

For what it's worth, this might actually be a feasible day train to Atlanta (the 0630 departure from ATL would be a hair on the early side, though not excessively so in many regards, while a 2130 arrival SB wouldn't be bad in many respects). Actually, as a side-effect of the times you get in CLT with this train, I don't think you'd even need another set of equipment to make it work: The train would sit in CLT for 21 hours, so the difference would really be 21 hours in CLT vs. 9 hours in ATL.

 

[neroden]

You could probably actually split 66/67 at WAS....

For what it's worth, this might actually be a feasible day train to Atlanta

If Atlanta got a new, much bigger station which had room for a layover.
Really, that's what Georgia needs to work on, the Atlanta station. The Atlanta station can't even really handle the one train it's got.

It might be necessary to restore some more sidings / double track between Atlanta and Charlotte to handle another train, but it looks like the ROW used to be all double track, including the bridges, so that would be relatively straightforward, compared to replacing the Atlanta station.

 

[afigg]

True, but there is presently a VRE train that connects comfortably between the two. It is just the inability to get that connection south of FBG (not to mention not knowing what the parking situation is at FBG...multi-day parking may not be that station's strong suit).

VRE service is to be extended a few miles south of Fredericksburg to a new station at Spotsylvania. I think the new station is supposed to have a big parking lot. Don't know if VRE is planning to allow any long term parking there, but in your new position, you could advocate that VRE consider setting aside a part of the Spotsylvania parking lot for long term (2 to 10 days?) parking. Of course, you would have to take a VRE train to get back to Spotsylvania. This connection would also only work on weekdays; can't even take the DC Metro to get to WAS to take the Vermonter on Saturdays and Sundays with its 7:30 AM departure and 7 AM opening time for the DC Metro.

As for the idea of a NYP/WAS to CLT train over the Crescent route, yea, DRPT and presumably NC DOT would have to do a survey and marketing study to determine the ridership and revenue projection from extending a "Lynchburger" to CLT. However, I expect that for at least the next 4-5 years, VA DRPT's focus will remain on expanding and improving service to the north from VA to the NEC along with the WAS to RVM NEPA & PE studies, not to the south to NC. As a consequence of the 2012 NC elections, I expect NC DOT actions will be limited in the near term to completing the HSIPR and TIGER grant upgrades so they can add coach cars to the Carolinian and two more daily Piedmont trains. Get that completed and then see what the political landscape and ridership levels looks like in 2018/2019.

BTW, found this link on the Wikipedia entry on the Piedmont Limited to a 1973 Amtrak timetable page for Southern Railway connecting trains on the timetable history site. CVS and LYH had pretty good train service to WAS in those days.

 

[neroden]

NCDOT and Charlotte still need to scrape together the money for the Charlotte area rail improvements and will probably continue doing this despite the 2012 NC elections. Charlotte area improvements are the limiting factor on frequencies to Charlotte IIRC. By the time that is done... probably well after 2018... the political obstacles in NC to a CLT-WAS train may well have evaporated.

 

[Anderson]

My understanding is that the Spotsylvania station is between FBG and the VRE layover facility south of FBG.

I will look into what can be done about improving the long-term parking situation, either at FBG or at the Spotsylvania station...parking shortages are one of my main focuses, since VA has a lot of stations with either present shortages or impending ones (I count NPN, WBG, RVM, RVR, FBG, and LYH as all having issues on one side or the other). CVS has only been saved, IIRC, because of a large (and recently paved) lot next to the station that was, I suspect, inherited from the "old days". NFK just hasn't taken off as a station yet (something about the only departure being at 0500 will suppress ridership), and I while can't speak to the other VRE-oriented stations I strongly suspect they're having issues as well.

Edit: Add MSS to the list of stations with parking issues...apparently, use of the lot is at 122% of capacity. BCV seems to be fine, but that also seems to be a side-effect of having a massive garage (1500 spaces or so per VRE's documents); this seems to be VRE trying to make up for overcrowded lots at almost every other station on that line. WDB seems to be doing alright, while I'm inclined to ignore QAN in any analysis due to the station's unique position (on a USMC base).

 

[jis]

RVR really needs a parking structure like say Metropark, Hamilton and Trenton has in NJ, and Princeton Jct. is in the process of getting. Spotsylvania should have one from the getgo, like Hamilton almost did. I agree that trying to put a large parking facility at QAN will mostly turn out to be a fool's errand.

 

[neroden]

More reason to distrust the scum running CSX:

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/CSX-opposes-high-speed-rail-on-its-tracks-5571510.php

For reference, the 110 mph proposal involves building entirely separate tracks; CSX simply wants to hog that right-of-way for driving the occasional maintenance vehicle.

Just a bunch of train-hating greedheads. They need the tracks taken away from them, all of them. Amtrak has the power of eminent domain over freight railroads; the states should cooperate with Amtrak to provide the funding to seize the tracks.

That is the *only way forward*, and the two of you who are on the NARP council really need to understand that. CSX is irredemably and irrationally hostile to passenger trains, and the tracks must be removed from their grubby little paws.

 

[jis]

Don't worry. Even if Amtrak decides to remotely attempt anything like eminent domain, which right they may or may not have, Congress will immediately make sure that any such is removed by law explicitly. Unless of course something ver unusual happens in the next election. Seriously, the real issue at present is whether the Senate will go Republican, not whether Amtrak can even remotely try to apply eminent domain on anything.

 

[neroden]

Nonsense, Jis. CSX has no influence in Congress whatsoever. They seem to have a few judges in their pocket, but Congress is pretty damn hostile to the freight railroads at this point. Attempts to delay the PTC regulation failed miserably, and attempts at freight *rate regulation* are actually gaining support in Congress (which should really scare the freight haulers). NY's current US Senators had to personally investigate CSX due to its derailment record a couple of years ago; no sympathy for CSX there. The freights have no clout in Congress at all and if the CSX execs understood politics, they wouldn't act so arrogant. If you read the STB filings, you'll see that the Class Is are making extra enemies in Congress right now.

If the NY state government decides it wants to buy the NY Central line from CSX (or the Adirondack line from CP) or if the Virginia state government decides it wants to buy the RF&P from CSX, the state governments WILL be able to get the lines, although they'll need Amtrak's cooperation due to the way the law is set up. Congress would most certainly *not* interfere.

Amtrak definitely has the right of eminent domain over all freight railroads which run passenger trains, at least if the railroads are failing to run the trains on time. Don't try to muddy the waters. The question was settled definitively at the Supreme Court in NRPC v. Boston and Maine. (It would still need to be funded by someone else like a state government, which is fine.)

The real question is which state governments have figured out at this point that owning the tracks is the only way to consistently get decent passenger rail service. I think they are slowly waking up to the facts, and I'm not sure how long it's going to take. At the moment I think that the following states "get it": Massachusetts, Vermont, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Michigan, California, Florida, and North Carolina. Probably also Colorado and Utah. I'm not sure about New York, but there are positive signs. Virginia and Illinois definitely do not seem to have figured it out, and Illinois is getting robbed blind as a result.

The most useful thing which can be done by advocates who have the ear of state government officials is to tell them over and over again that they need to own the tracks. Eventually, after enough rounds of backstabbing by the freight railroads, it's going to sink into their heads. It's been *40 years* of backstabbing; eventually even the dullest state official has to notice that this is routine.

 

[Anderson]

Nathanael,

Virginia has an unusually good relationship with the Class Is, particularly Norfolk Southern (which is headquartered in-state), but Virginia has also been working with both Class Is (and various shortlines) to fund freight improvements as well, so the state seems to have some leverage there. With that said, VA also seems to operate in a strange universe all its own where passenger trains make money, the Class Is play ball, and the OTPs are all above average (no, really...NS's dispatching on the Norfolk trains is borderline flawless, with the lowest delays per 10k miles in the system, and the Lynchburger also gets very good treatment, and this behavior also exists in North Carolina as well...CSX, on the other hand, has chronic issues surrounding Richmond).

 

[neroden]

Nathanael,

Virginia has an unusually good relationship with the Class Is, particularly Norfolk Southern (which is headquartered in-state), but Virginia has also been working with both Class Is (and various shortlines) to fund freight improvements as well, so the state seems to have some leverage there. With that said, VA also seems to operate in a strange universe all its own where passenger trains make money, the Class Is play ball, and the OTPs are all above average (no, really...NS's dispatching on the Norfolk trains is borderline flawless, with the lowest delays per 10k miles in the system, and the Lynchburger also gets very good treatment, and this behavior also exists in North Carolina as well...CSX, on the other hand, has chronic issues surrounding Richmond).

It does seem like a parallel universe. I wouldn't expect it to last.

NS has actually dispatched really well, nationwide, since -- well, roughly since it lost the court case over the ownership of the NCRR in 1999. They allowed the track standards to drop in Michigan, but that was an attempt to force Michigan to actually finish buying the line, which it had been dithering over. They have continuous problems in northwest Indiana and Chicago, but I honestly believe they're doing their best.

CSX, on the other hand... gaaaah. They've been awful in New York, even worse than Conrail, who weren't great. They've been bad in Michigan on the Pere Marquette route. They've been pretty bad on the Capitol Limited route, too. They're noticeably better with the routes to Florida, but they're still pretty bad. And their objections to passenger rail improvements in NY are often completely frivolous. 50 foot separations! Concrete barriers! (They don't seem to pull quite as much of that **** in Virginia, and I'm not sure why.)

The westbound LSL, for years, has routinely lost hours on CSX track from Albany to Cleveland and then regained hours on NS track; the difference is massive. (Lately NS has been having more trouble, but they *are* doing trackwork in the middle of the chokepoint right now.)

The core problem which a "good relationship" with the Class I does not address, is that you can have a "good relationship" with a freight railroad and have it evaporate overnight with a change of management. CP was one of the better hosts for Amtrak for a long time. Enter E Hunter Harrison, and suddenly CP is the worst host. The same was true of CN; before E Hunter Harrison, CN was one of the more reliable Amtrak hosts.

The only way to avoid getting stabbed by a new freight railroad management team is for the state to own the tracks. Frankly, it seems to be quite sufficient for the state to own the tracks and lease them back to the freight operator for 15 years at a time, as in North Carolina. But unless the state can threaten to pull the plug, any time there's new management at the private railroad you have a good chance of trouble.

 

[jis]

Nonsense, Jis.

Wake me up and let me know when your fanciful ideas actually bring any results.

 

[Anderson]

On Norfolk Southern, the simple fact is that NS never really got into any bad practices as far as I can tell. ATSF and Southern more or less kept their stuff together over the years regarding passenger trains, and that carried over into NS and, until recently, BNSF.*

CSX tends to behave differently in Virginia in general. Honestly, you mention "pulling the plug"...the VA State Rail Plan involves a lot of funding to the Class Is. Per the FY15 SYIP, the state was providing substantial grants to both Norfolk Southern and CSX for their projects (the "normal" ratio seems to be 70% state funding to 30% private funding for those), while CSX was throwing in about 5% of the cost for the various SEHSR and RF&P studies.

I think the root cause is that Virginia really wants to get trucks off the highways, and is willing to pay for freight improvements to get that to happen. If the Class Is were to really start screwing with Virginia's passenger trains or being overly obstructive, it wouldn't be impossible to see someone in Richmond decide to step on the hose. As I understand it, VA and CSX are in an odd dance on a bunch of improvements on the Peninsula line so that the state doesn't just end up paying for what CSX was going to do anyway, but the state seems to be up for paying for a good amount of second track restoration there as well.

As to the current situation, the remaining bottlenecks on the RF&P are at least somewhat down to the line being jammed up (there's a sore, sore need for more capacity on the line right now), but...well, all I can say is that I've taken the Meteor south to Richmond numerous times and it is seldom late. If anything, it tends to pull into Richmond early. There are yard issues in Richmond, but the state does want to deal with those as well. Basically, VA and the Class Is are on the same page.

*As I've said before, a lot of BNSF's issues are also capacity-related. The main theory I have heard is that they just oversold their capacity without realizing it...but they do seem to be getting their act together with their investment plans.

 

[Bayley48]

Regarding the observation that "NFK just hasn't taken off as a station yet," I've seen no indication that trains 2 and 3 will be anything other than a simple extension of existing morning trains now originating at RVR. The result--hourly service from NFK at 4am, 5am and 6am, would insure that NFK will never take off as a station. I really hope I am wrong.

 

[Anderson]

Regarding the observation that "NFK just hasn't taken off as a station yet," I've seen no indication that trains 2 and 3 will be anything other than a simple extension of existing morning trains now originating at RVR. The result--hourly service from NFK at 4am, 5am and 6am, would insure that NFK will never take off as a station. I really hope I am wrong.

That's the plan at the moment is more or less that. With that said, my understanding is that there's a desire to switch 94/95 over to Norfolk and switch one train over to NPN. There's also an indefinite desire to add a third train onto the Peninsula as well.

 

[neroden]

CSX tends to behave differently in Virginia in general. Honestly, you mention "pulling the plug"...the VA State Rail Plan involves a lot of funding to the Class Is. Per the FY15 SYIP, the state was providing substantial grants to both Norfolk Southern and CSX for their projects (the "normal" ratio seems to be 70% state funding to 30% private funding for those), while CSX was throwing in about 5% of the cost for the various SEHSR and RF&P studies.

Well, hopefully the threat of withdrawing the endless bribes will help keep them in line, but...

I think the root cause is that Virginia really wants to get trucks off the highways, and is willing to pay for freight improvements to get that to happen. If the Class Is were to really start screwing with Virginia's passenger trains or being overly obstructive, it wouldn't be impossible to see someone in Richmond decide to step on the hose.

You've got to look at this another way though: it's all very well to spend a lot of money to improve freight service (I'm all for that), but why are all the improvements going directly into the pockets of private shareholders?

It gives remarkably few guarantees that the improvements will continue to be maintained and used for public benefit -- even for freight -- over the long run. Does the Commonwealth of Virginia even have any kind of reversionary or security interest in the improvements it's making? A private investor wouldn't generally make large investments without some kind of security interest -- why is the state government doing so?

New Mexico, looking at abuses which took place in a similar situation over 100 years ago, actually banned expenditure of public moneys on privately owned railroads in its *constitution*. That's probably going too far, but if you're going to dump billions into a construction project, it seems a little ridiculous not to own any of it afterwards. I'd go so far as to call it naive.

 

[edjbox]

I hope that Newport News can keep both 94/95, 194/99, 78/83 (Fri only) and 66/67. They work very well with good ridership on the Peninsula despite the limited slots and priority CSX gives toward its numerous coal trains, mixed freight, and more recently crude oil trains. Anyways, unless CSX starts extending some double trackage and cooperate better with Amtrak, we're lucky to have these trains on the Peninsula in their given slots.

One note on the differences between CSX and NS- as overheard in a conversation on Amtrak 66 with a conductor a little over a month ago: when the FRA asks for data from those two railroads on track replacement/maintenance due to heat, Norfolk Southern has a well organized set of data, filled with spreadsheets and precise temperatures to the decimal point. CSX meanwhile, seems to scribble down some numbers and hand them over.

I've heard from other discussions that 66/67 should be switched to NFK since Petersburg has checked baggage service already; well first off, 66/67 works well in Newport News, second, both Newport News and Williamsburg now offer checked baggage services (seen on a blurb in a recent Trains Magazine issue and confirmed on Amtrak's website for both of those stations). Possible third: tunnel tolls (too early to tell with this one though).

I'm not sure anyone has done a study on this already, but what if someone looked at the Newport News ridership data, and from that data, look at peoples' addresses to see where they are driving from to get to Newport News. That will give you good information on new trains to Hampton Roads.

I know this is long enough but I only have a few more questions:

1) When is the Bland Blvd station going to be built??? The current one is convenient to several main roads and bridges but building is too small. Could it be kept as a perhaps limited staffed station?

2) Instead of building a new station at Bowers Hill, why not have a smaller stop at the old existing Suffolk NS station?

3) Will Newport News eventually get their own 30th street station?

 

[Anderson]

Well, the issue with 66/67 on the Peninsula is that you can, in fact, get some tourist traffic on that one. Taking an evening train down on Friday, hitting Busch Gardens on Saturday and then CW on Sunday, and heading back Sunday evening? That's actually a passable vacation for some folks, and you can do that without missing work on either Friday (the evening train leaves DC after 1700) or Monday. I also gather there's some student traffic on 66/67 as well from William and Mary (which probably provides more of WBG's traffic than a lot of us would like to give it credit for). While I wouldn't be opposed to splitting 66/67 at RVR and moving some of its schedule pad around to accommodate this (splitting one train would at least allow the 3-and-3 I'm hoping for in the not-so-long run), I'm not sure what the cost situation would look like for that versus the buses.

I'll also agree...NS is visibly a better-run system while CSX is still getting its act together in many ways.

As to your questions:
(1) A couple of responses:
-Bland Blvd should open in a few years. If you look over at the HRTPO's 2012-15 TIP, the station was already listed there. Looking at the latest revision it has a tentative opening date of September 29, 2017 (which I believe is a month later than I saw before).
--It also shows up in the draft 2015-18 TIP as opening on 9/29/17.
--It is also listed in the FY15 SYIP and in there was set for FY16/17 (which would also hint at a 2017 opening).
-The current station's status is going to be an open question. See #3.

(2) The problem is that, as I understand it, Amtrak is supposed to eventually switch lines in Suffolk. I /think/ it is supposed to move to the V-Line from its current route, but I could be wrong on this front. This has been my understanding about Suffolk not getting a station from the get-go.

(3) The Newport News station situation is complicated.
-In theory, the plan is for there to be a downtown station (somewhere between 28th and 35th street, but it seems to move every time there's a plan), but it is unclear how much traffic it would attract. In theory, you could attract shipyard commuters, but that's about it...downtown is presently a wasteland cut off from the rest of the city by a coal yard on one side, a 10-15 block parking crater on another, and surrounded by the river on the other two sides. You've got some limited Navy housing down there (gated off rather spectacularly) as well as a few apartment blocks, but that is about it. Moreover, on the (literal) other side of the tracks you have a bunch of the more rundown areas in Newport News. The downtown station is also not presently funded, and seems to have quietly been dropped from the 2015-18 TIP (it was at least paired with Bland Blvd in the previous one).
-We also have the existing station. I could see the present station being kept for the aforementioned reasons (especially if there's storage space downtown that a train can be parked on without issues), and it might be useful as part of a commuter rail project. The utility of three stations on the lower Peninsula would be dubious, and it would be cheaper to keep the current station (but transfer part of the passenger load uptown) than to build an additional station. Parking is the other issue here, btw.
-On the other end of things, I believe CSX rather wants the passenger trains out of the downtown yards, and the current setup involves a messy backup move on the Phoebus subdivision that involves blocking a street or two. The new station is supposed to have a turning track as well, providing another incentive not to run trains further down.

 

[edjbox]

Can't see any reroute of service on the Norfolk line, just does not make any sense. There appears to be a gap of abandoned trackage on the V-Line through Bowers Hill and can't see any reroute through Portsmouth on the Belt Line via CSX trackage. Its current N&W route looks fine to me unless Amtrak wants to use the Norfolk Southern line to Emporia.

 

[Anderson]

Can't see any reroute of service on the Norfolk line, just does not make any sense. There appears to be a gap of abandoned trackage on the V-Line through Bowers Hill and can't see any reroute through Portsmouth on the Belt Line via CSX trackage. Its current N&W route looks fine to me unless Amtrak wants to use the Norfolk Southern line to Emporia.

My understanding is that the switch is likely to be part of the HSR study that's currently in process. I think NS is inclined to more or less let the HSR folks have the run of the V-line (since there's not as much space for additional trackage on the main line and the line is presently, if I understand correctly, use for local freight which can be coordinated with the state).

 

[edjbox]

You probably know more about this than me, but honestly I can't see how effective such a venture would work. I guess it could be a long-term solution, but there are businesses and houses along that route now. At least with the potential S-line restoration from Petersburg you are saving a lot of time but with this route don't see valid reasoning, at least so far. Plus the route would merge into a CSX line before heading back to Suffolk.

 

[Anderson]

It seems that (at least according to some documents from the HRTPO's folks) there is a desire to re-connect the V-Line to the N&W line. Apparently the ROW still exists and could be converted back (albeit likely not cheaply). From what I understand, the issue is more one of increasing freight congestion...but IIRC there's substantial track that's going to have to go in on the NS line to get the additional three trains per day in the HSR plan on top of the planned three right now.

 

[Anderson]

Ok, I have a few updates:
(1) I got confirmation that SEHSR intends to use the V-Line through Suffolk. The track is currently a dead end and they'll have to restore a few miles of connection there, but there will be no CSX running involved.

(2) It looks like the downtown Newport News station is dead...and that is a funny story which should explain a lot about CSX. From what I've heard, CSX's real estate office sold some land to allow the Wal-Mart to be built at Mercury and Jefferson. Well, apparently the real estate people didn't bother to check what they sold and after they transferred the land it turned out that they had sold off the wye used to turn equipment around, including Amtrak's trains. So the yard downtown is having fits because they lost their wye, and that has basically killed off the plan to put that station in. Oops.

(3) Also in this vein, it turns out that the bad handling of Amtrak in VA sort of isn't CSX's fault. There's a major lack of crossovers along the southern end of the RF&P. CSX is very loath to put trains on the "wrong way" track for too long (Amtrak or freight, doesn't matter) and the result is that you get traffic jams on the way into RVR. Up in NOVA, the problem is even more unusual: VRE pays CSX more for access and/or has bigger handling bonuses, so guess who gets priority over whom?

The takeaway: With CSX, don't assume malice. Malice assumes they know what they're doing.

 

[Ryan]

(2) It looks like the downtown Newport News station is dead...and that is a funny story which should explain a lot about CSX. From what I've heard, CSX's real estate office sold some land to allow the Wal-Mart to be built at Mercury and Jefferson. Well, apparently the real estate people didn't bother to check what they sold and after they transferred the land it turned out that they had sold off the wye used to turn equipment around, including Amtrak's trains. So the yard downtown is having fits because they lost their wye, and that has basically killed off the plan to put that station in. Oops.

I would love to have been a fly on the wall at CSX when they came to that realization.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

The takeaway: With CSX, don't assume malice. Malice assumes they know what they're doing.

True, but IMHO, don't discount it either.

For example, their reputation for poor track maintenance, that rears its ugly head every so often, seems to be SOP to the CSX culture. They will get a bit better for a while, when public scrutiny is on them, but then seem to have a tendancy to drift back to their old ways.