VIA Northern Quebec Service

[Anderson]

Just to highlight that heat-related slow orders imposed by CN are not exclusively targeting Amtrak: They‘ve forced VIA to operate their Northern Quebec services overnight during heat waves throughout the last few summers…
https://groups.io/g/Canadian-Passenger-Rail/topic/83797439

The only complaint I would offer on this is that VIA can't be bothered to scrounge up a pair of sleepers (say, some Chateau cars? I seem to recall that they have a few of those in storage?) to tag onto this route. Otherwise...it's a rural service run with a bunch of flag stops in the middle of nowhere, so an overnight run isn't absurd to contemplate (even if it might be a bit unpleasant).

 

[jiml]

The only complaint I would offer on this is that VIA can't be bothered to scrounge up a pair of sleepers (say, some Chateau cars? I seem to recall that they have a few of those in storage?) to tag onto this route. Otherwise...it's a rural service run with a bunch of flag stops in the middle of nowhere, so an overnight run isn't absurd to contemplate (even if it might be a bit unpleasant).

Ironically those trains once had sleepers, and the Senneterre leg had a dining car and ran all the way to a junction with the Ontario Northland in Cochrane, ON.

 

[Urban Sky]

The only complaint I would offer on this is that VIA can't be bothered to scrounge up a pair of sleepers (say, some Chateau cars? I seem to recall that they have a few of those in storage?) to tag onto this route. Otherwise...it's a rural service run with a bunch of flag stops in the middle of nowhere, so an overnight run isn't absurd to contemplate (even if it might be a bit unpleasant).

The three first questions which come in my would be:

1. Who would staff these Sleepers? IIRC, no Sleeper staff is based in Montreal, as the Ocean is staffed out of Halifax.
2. Who would pay extra for using a Sleeper? From the one ”familiarization” round-trip I did as a (at that time) VIA employee to Jonquière, I don’t recall the crowd (not that there is much of a “crowd” in the first place) as particularly affluent.
3. Why would the federal government be willing to pay (through increased operational subsidies) for the additional operational expense of dragging and staffing a Sleeper car?

 

[jis]

The three first questions which come in my would be:

1. Who would staff these Sleepers? IIRC, no Sleeper staff is based in Montreal, as the Ocean is based out of Halifax.
2. Who would pay extra for using a Sleeper? From the one ”familiarization” round-trip I did as a VIA employee to Jonquière, I don’t recall the crowd (not that there is much of a “crowd” in the first place) as particularly affluent.
3. Why would the federal government pay for the additional operational expense of dragging and staffing a Sleeper car?

I agree. I don't think the Jomquiere clientele today could meaningfully support the operation of a Sleeper. It would run mostly empty.

 

[Anderson]

The three first questions which come in my would be:

1. Who would staff these Sleepers? IIRC, no Sleeper staff is based in Montreal, as the Ocean is staffed out of Halifax.
2. Who would pay extra for using a Sleeper? From the one ”familiarization” round-trip I did as a (at that time) VIA employee to Jonquière, I don’t recall the crowd (not that there is much of a “crowd” in the first place) as particularly affluent.
3. Why would the federal government be willing to pay (through increased operational subsidies) for the additional operational expense of dragging and staffing a Sleeper car?

I don't know the staffing contracts "up north" but could the cafe attendant be given those duties? [On an overnight run the cafe traffic would presumably be light, and this is enough of a "recurring problem" to weigh this as a contract shift.] If you can combine those duties, even with a raise being involved you're pretty much down to a one-car maintenance bill in terms of net fiscal impact (the fuel impact should be negligible).

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't know the staffing contracts "up north" but could the cafe attendant be given those duties? [On an overnight run the cafe traffic would presumably be light, and this is enough of a "recurring problem" to weigh this as a contract shift.] If you can combine those duties, even with a raise being involved you're pretty much down to a one-car maintenance bill in terms of net fiscal impact (the fuel impact should be negligible).

Before I attempt to answer your question: what is the problem we are trying to fix at the moment and is it really a problem beyond rail enthusiasts’ forums like this one?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

If the passengers were snug as bugs in a rug in their sleeper, they'd miss their flag stops!

 

[Anderson]

Before I attempt to answer your question: what is the problem we are trying to fix at the moment and is it really a problem beyond rail enthusiasts’ forums like this one?

In my view, and I think this is a valid point, if a train runs overnight (for more than X time) it should have some sort of "bed" accommodation. The "ideal" for a route like this might be sections/roomettes or a single slumbercoach in terms of price point(s), or even something like a QR lie-flat. When this is "just" a day train, a coach is fine...but once it gets forced overnight that gets "stressed".

[The only exception I can think of was the overnight TGV thing done in France, and that was more of a "party train" IIRC.]

 

[jis]

The bottom line about Sleepers is that a reasonably priceable Sleeper format is necessary.

Examples that exist elsewhere are the 6 berth Couchettes in Europe, or the open form 3 Tier Sleepers in Asia (so called Hard Sleeper for historical reasons but now all of them have padding on the berths). When you can fit 72 berths in a car automatically their cost becomes quite close to that of a seat in Chair Car/Coach. But as long as all you can fit is 30 berths, the prices will tend to be at least double of Coach seats and possibly more.

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't know the staffing contracts "up north" but could the cafe attendant be given those duties? [On an overnight run the cafe traffic would presumably be light, and this is enough of a "recurring problem" to weigh this as a contract shift.] If you can combine those duties, even with a raise being involved you're pretty much down to a one-car maintenance bill in terms of net fiscal impact (the fuel impact should be negligible).

We are talking about a train consisting of a locomotive, a baggage car and a single coach with galley, which is staffed by a single on-train crew member. Having taken this train myself, I can assure you that the attendant was busy enough, so that he could not assume any additional duties.

[The only exception I can think of was the overnight TGV thing done in France, and that was more of a "party train" IIRC.]

Remind me again how many years the overnight Boston-Newport NEC train operated without any Sleeper facilities? There are dozens of overnight trains operating across Europe without any Sleeper facilities. Here we are talking about a temporary schedule change, which is implemented with very little notice during heat waves…

The bottom line about Sleepers is that a reasonably priceable Sleeper format is necessary.

Examples that exist elsewhere are the 6 berth Couchettes in Europe, or the open form 3 Tier Sleepers in Asia (so called Hard Sleeper for historical reasons but now all of them have padding on the berths). When you can fit 72 berths in a car automatically their cost becomes quite close to that of a seat in Chair Car/Coach. But as long as all you can fit is 30 berths, the prices will tend to be at least double of Coach seats and possibly more.

The difference in unit costs (e.g. per bed or bed-mile) for a Sleeper with 30 or 72 beds is meaningless when we are talking about a train which frequently sees passenger counts which you can count on one or two hands.

***

Speaking from my own experience, it really is difficult to appreciate what kind of transportation needs a “Remote” service fulfills until you take one by yourself…

 

[jis]

Sorry, my Sleeper comment was about sleeper prices in general. Not about that particular train. I have already stated that sleeper does not make sense on a train where even the entire train only makes very marginal sense.

 

[xzperu42]

I took the Jonquière train today as an add on to my trip to Montreal to see the eclipse (was spectacular in Montreal). I was pleasantly surprised. Very scenic trip through the mountains. Mid April is likely low season as there was only a 1/2 dozen other passengers on the train. Only 3 of us rode to the end.

 

[xzperu42]

I happened to see the VIA crew at the Delta Hotel Saguenay this morning. I’ll bet VIA’s bill from the Delta is more than they collected in ticket revenue yesterday

 

[cirdan]

[The only exception I can think of was the overnight TGV thing done in France, and that was more of a "party train" IIRC.]

When Germany retrenched its night-train network 10 years ago or so, some of the more popular routes were replaced by night-time ICE trains. This was a huge step backwards in terms of comfort, especially for the high end categories, but even for coach travelers as the seats did not recline as much as the night-train coach seats. The bistro car was a tragedy and ended up being closed most of the time because either under staffed or sold out of stock. Some of these routes have since gone back to proper night trains courtesy of OBB.

 

[jiml]

I took the Jonquière train today as an add on to my trip to Montreal to see the eclipse (was spectacular in Montreal). I was pleasantly surprised. Very scenic trip through the mountains. Mid April is likely low season as there was only a 1/2 dozen other passengers on the train. Only 3 of us rode to the end.View attachment 36422

@cirdan comment prompts a question: What was the onboard food like? It has been a "limited" menu for some time (without a lounge car) but some reports from riders suggest they are often out of most everything listed - particularly on the return journey. The pandemic may have been a factor so a current update would be helpful.

 

[xzperu42]

@cirdan comment prompts a question: What was the onboard food like? It has been a "limited" menu for some time (without a lounge car) but some reports from riders suggest they are often out of most everything listed - particularly on the return journey. The pandemic may have been a factor so a current update would be helpful.

They had fairly good coffee, so that’s important. I had a bagel and cream cheese, but it was pretty sorry compared to the delicious ones on offer in Montreal. I’ll post a photo of the menu, but I am taking the bus as I write this to Quebec City (so can’t comment on the return journey) and the WiFi is pretty bad, so I dare not try now.

I’m now on one of the new Corridor trains so have decent WiFi. As promised:

 

[Amtrak25]

Is that the same menu as the Corridor trains from the cart ?

 

[Rasputin]

Thanks for posting the menu. On these Northern Quebec trains is there a table section to eat at or is it solely eating at your seat? I understand that there is no lounge car. Thanks.

 

[xzperu42]

The train is just a baggage car and one coach car with a small area at one end for the service items. There is no area with tables, so just eat at your seat.

 

[Steve4031]

I rode that train years ago, in 1994. It was a fantastic ride. The vestibule end of the last coach was at the car's rear. I stood on that platform for hours, enjoying the ride. It took a circuitous trip out of Montreal and headed northeast before heading north.

 

[Amtrak25]

The train is just a baggage car and one coach car with a small area at one end for the service items. There is no area with tables, so just eat at your seat.

That is a HEP-II Corridor coach, thankfully with the old seats. (The new seats I sat in 2019 are horrible).

I thought the remote trains always had one of the 3 non-CP HEP-I coaches that has a galley.

 

[xzperu42]

I think the second law of public transport is new seats are always less comfortable than what they replace

 

[Urban Sky]

That is a HEP-II Corridor coach, thankfully with the old seats. (The new seats I sat in 2019 are horrible).

I thought the remote trains always had one of the 3 non-CP HEP-I coaches that has a galley.

They usually have one of the 3 HEP-I coaches with a galley you mentioned (8145-47), but that leaves them only one spare, so they will sometimes have to use a HEP-2 coach instead (because none of the other HEP-1 coaches has galleys)…

 

[Rambling Robert]

They had fairly good coffee, so that’s important. I had a bagel and cream cheese, but it was pretty sorry compared to the delicious ones on offer in Montreal. I’ll post a photo of the menu, but I am taking the bus as I write this to Quebec City (so can’t comment on the return journey) and the WiFi is pretty bad, so I dare not try now.

I’m now on one of the new Corridor trains so have decent WiFi. As promised:

View attachment 36426

All three sandwiches are pretty good. From Moncton to Halifax I had the café almost to myself for several stops. I had the falafel sandwich, and I would say it was better than average whereas Boston falafel is way way above average.

While on the Mapleleaf to and from Buffalo and Toronto, I had the turkey sandwich and the ham croissant. I thought both were really good. On thosee trips I we had the Amtrak train set but via rail food.

Heading eastbound from Montreal. There were heavy mudslides back in October of last year, and the train was very very slow and about seven hours behind schedule by the time it reached Moncton. They served a very hearty soup and a basic ham and cheese sandwich and a small bottle of water because we were late.

I told an Amtrak story to some of the viaRail folks. I gave them all the details about when AMTRAK has major delays they break out the Donner stew ha ha - I gave them the full story of Donner Pass.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I gave them all the details about when AMTRAK has major delays they break out the Donner stew ha ha - I gave them the full story of Donner Pass.

I sometimes wonder what might be in that Dinty Moore Beef Stew