Viewliner Dining Car Mockup Photo

[Tom]

There is a whole lot of overreaction to this photo here and elsewhere. My opinion is:

This is a mockup of alternatives. When you look carefully, each table is different- some have support posts, others do not, some tables are perfect rectangles and other are not. I would bet the color white is a function of using one plastic for molding because the exercise is about space utilization vs aesthetics and also because it would be far more expensive to mold several different colors. Remember, the photo is from an internal publication, not a press release.

These new cars will have aisles that are wider than existing diners (similar to California Cars) because of ADA requirements. Wider aisles make for narrower tables and existing diner tables are already narrow for two people. Shifting to tables where people seated on the aisle are slightly angled toward the window serves to increase shoulder room. Amtrak's 6'6" length for each window's module makes for fairly deep (length of the train) tables, thus you can make the aisle side of the table less deep while still having an acceptable table depth- meanwhile the two people on the same side of the table are slightly canted and enjoying more shoulder room. Also, their elbows are no longer on a collision course. It is a small move that can make for real improvement.

I personally like several of the design elements in the Cross Country Cafes.

Amtrak and passengers really seem to like the "look" that was premiered with the Empire Builder rebuilds and has held through the stimulus rebuilds. It is warm, handsome and (with the exception of the white panels) hides dirt, wear and tear. My guess is the new car order will keep the same look or represent an evolution of the look. My bet is that the 8400 prototype will give us a strong indication. The ergonomics of design will be tested in 8400 and the practicality of decor will be tested.

I never cease to be amazed by how one person can seize on a tiny detail of someone else's speculation, jump to a false conclusion and then an entire gang goes to town on something that has no basis in reality- usually to the tune of "Everyone in Amtrak management is a idiot" or "Why can't people just leave everything like it was in 1952".

I personally think Amtrak management has been doing their homework on this car order and has been doing a lot of smart thinking about equipment. No, I am not an Amtrak manager or vendor, just a frequent passenger on the long distance trains in sleeper class.

 

[bretton88]

And the actual product won't look anything close to this. It is an engineering mockup, there are different styles of tables, dividers and seats to see what works best and get feedback on the different elements, so what we see in production will only have one style of table. I personally like the table with the glass Amtrak divider, it looks nice. If they applied that to the whole dining area, it would result in a nice open car.

 

[Train2104]

Also notice the updated rendering of the ACS64 on the bottom of the same page!!!

 

[Steve4031]

This CCC design is ridiculous. I can't think of one person who likes the CCC design. I don't think the crews like it. Why would they turn around and create crap like this with the viewliner prototype. The 4 seater tables have worked well for years. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. I was really excited about the viewliner diner, but now I am dreading it.

 

[Trogdor]

This CCC design is ridiculous. I can't think of one person who likes the CCC design. I don't think the crews like it. Why would they turn around and create crap like this with the viewliner prototype. The 4 seater tables have worked well for years. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. I was really excited about the viewliner diner, but now I am dreading it.

Okay, seriously. The Viewliner Diner is NOT going to be a CCC. Where the heck are you getting CCC from this? You have an undetailed picture of a mock-up, where you can hardly see anything. There's nothing even remotely CCC-like in that picture. Seriously, again, where are you getting CCC from?

"Guest Tom" actually gets it. Read his post.

For what it's worth, the 8400 looks really nice inside, and I 100% guarantee you it is not a CCC. But go ahead and bash the people who "create crap like this." Just don't ride it. More space for the rest of us then.

 

[SP&S]

It's only a mock-up. I'm sure colors will be added. The photo suffers from distortion caused by a wide-angle lens. Personally, I think it has a lot of promise.

Of course the only way I know to tell for sure is to enjoy an order of railroad french toast sitting in it .

 

[Steve4031]

I should have read the other posts more carefully before posting a second time. It never occurred to me that there was a possibility that these were mock ups of different types of tables. I'm going to withhold judgement until the final product comes out. I am partial to the traditional set up. But I have noticed the elbow room issues too.

I remember a dining car on the lone star that had 4 top tables on an angle on one side, and 2 tops on the other iirc. I could see the potential in this set up.

 

[AlanB]

For what it's worth, the 8400 looks really nice inside, and I 100% guarantee you it is not a CCC.

Agreed!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Sorry but it still makes me want to order a Big Mac and Fries and a Happy Meal! It's butt ugly even if it is a test mule! The Edsel and several other folleys were brought about by prototypes like this!!! Im from Missouri on this one, Show me the good stuff, not this crap!!!

 

[Anderson]

Could someone give us the dimensions of the room (namely the height and width) so we can judge the distortion a bit better?

As to the "Why can't we have things like they were in 1952?" bit...look, for good or ill those diners have worked longer than virtually any design out there, period. I will grant that there could be some improvements (sliding doors, for example), and adjusting the cars' dimensions to match the rest of a Viewliner train would be nice from a matching consist standpoint...but I've seriously got to wonder why we'd need to shake the diner (or at least the dining area of it; I can't comment on the kitchen/storage side of things) up too much except to be creative for the sake of being creative. Then again, I also see the current sleeper setup as more or less sufficient...unless Amtrak needs to trot out either all-bedroom cars, all-roomette cars, or revive the Slumbercoach idea, there's not a whole lot that needs to be fundamentally changed about the cars themselves (with the possible exception of putting some seats back in the Cafe/Lounge cars on shorter haul trains...but that's just a revenue maximization thing).

As to the CCC comments...I think the concern is more of a well-intentioned design going bad, so to speak, which is basically what happened with the CCC. That said, I figure it's fair to point out that a lot of the older trains had far different seating arrangements than we're used to...look at pictures of the 20th Century Limited for an idea.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

These new cars will have aisles that are wider than existing diners (similar to California Cars) because of ADA requirements. Wider aisles make for narrower tables and existing diner tables are already narrow for two people.

I wonder if the 8400 has to meet the same ADA requirements, because it is technically a "old" car? The reason I ask, is that this would have a strong effect on if the 8400 has an interior just like the new Viewliner diners.

 

[haolerider]

Having seen many mock-ups in Wilmington, the photo shows exactly what it is - a mock-up. The process allows each work team to come into the car and make comments regarding their own department - cooks, servers, conductors, LSAs, marketing staff, etc., etc. Some times wood is used to show samples of table, work stations, kitchen, etc, so they can me moved easily or re-worked according to suggestions for modifications. Note, there are no drapes on the windows or any other color on the walls. I would not get too upset about the photo at this point.

 

[user 1215]

Now, knowing what journalism is, and noting that INK is still journalism targeted to employees, I still can't help but get over this one line from the caption of the photo:

CAF USA has creaded models of the new cars, including this one that shows the planned design for the diners.

So, I can get the color. But I can't find anywhere in the article that says that this is a conglomeration of ideas. There are conglomerations of ideas and mockups of other ideas are out there, but strictly according to the article, this one that shows the planned design.

In my business, we're always building mockups and proposing ideas. But they aren't cheap, so you model something on the computer first, then you mock up the most promising designs to ensure fit and function.

 

[abcnews]

If Amtrak had anything to do with the creation of the Sightseer Lounge - which I think is an amazing rail car. Add to that, the Viewliner sleeper - which for the most part is well designed, and in the Viewliner they developed a rail car with excellent use of space for a sleeping car. Plenty of windows, strategically placed, etc..

Therefore, I trust their judgement on a dinning car. I think their current track record is rather good. So I expect that the new Viewliner ll diner will be a big hit,

 

[jis]

If Amtrak had anything to do with the creation of the Sightseer Lounge - which I think is an amazing rail car. Add to that, the Viewliner sleeper - which for the most part is well designed, and in the Viewliner they developed a rail car with excellent use of space for a sleeping car. Plenty of windows, strategically placed, etc..

Therefore, I trust their judgement on a dinning car. I think their current track record is rather good. So I expect that the new Viewliner ll diner will be a big hit,

And while at it we should all remember that Amtrak in collaboration with Pullman basically invented the Superliner Sleeper. There was nothing like it before.

Notwithstanding all the protestations to the contrary by aficionados of yesteryears, I think that a Viewliner Roomette is far superior to anything equivalent to it that existed before too. Just the amount of window surface on the wall makes a huge difference, not to mention the full length window for the upper berth. The windows in classic sleepers were outright tiny portholes in comparison.

This CCC design is ridiculous. I can't think of one person who likes the CCC design. I don't think the crews like it. Why would they turn around and create crap like this with the viewliner prototype. The 4 seater tables have worked well for years. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. I was really excited about the viewliner diner, but now I am dreading it.

Frankly, you really need to spend a little more time reading before putting finger to the keyboard my friend

First of all there is no evidence anywhere that they are going to the CCC layout in the Viewliner, not even in the mockup.

Second, people seem to love essentially the same layout as CCC in part of the Pacific Parlor cars, so perhaps there are circumstances where they are likeable. Indeed I remember asking AlanB while walking through one with him, whether the CCC layout idea originated in the Pacific Parlor Car.

Personally I did not like the CCC layout in a Diner, and also in the Pacific Parlor car because I think it is silly to place seats with their backs to huge windows, unless one develops a special breed of humans with an extra eye in the back of their heads.

 

[Tracktwentynine]

Quick story: A woman is having a new house designed for her. She wants it to be magnificent. So she hires a famous architect to design it for her. When he shows her the blueprints, she says, "That's horrible! I can't believe you'd pair white walls with a blue floor! You must be the dumbest designer I've ever seen." Before the architect can explain that blueprints always look like that (hence the name), she fires him and goes to find a new architect.

Now, back to the subject at hand. "Guest Tom" has it right. This is a mockup meant to help finalize the design. It is NOT the actual final design.

The white won't stay. It's just there because that's the color of the plastic they're using and also probably because it's easy to use to compare different colors with. Just to prove this point, WMATA has built a mockup of their new 7000-series car out of plywood. It's unstained, unpainted plywood. Guess what, the new subway cars won't be built out of plywood. Their finishes won't be plywood. It was cheap and convenient and a good way to test out the space of the car. And also to test out how different seat styles and placements worked. But I'm sure some of you would assume WMATA was going for the classic plywood-moderne theme.

Amtrak is doing the same thing. They've built a simple prototype. And I'm glad they have. Would you rather they not build a mockup? Would you rather they built a whole line of diners that had some sort of logistical flaw? Or would you rather that you just didn't see a picture of a work in progress?

As for the caption, the people who publish Ink have nothing to do with the people who design railcars. It's a caption. It's one line. The technical editor who wrote it probably picked the word "planned" out of thin air, because "prototype" or "range of test options" sounded to cumbersome.

This is clearly a mockup with different designs of booths and tables. It's something proactive agencies do. BART is designing a new fleet of railcars. They're taking sample seats around the system and letting passengers sit in them to get feedback. That shouldn't be taken to mean that all (or any) of those designs will be chosen. (Also, it doesn't mean that the new seats won't be in railcars at all, but will just glide along the rails on a cushion of air.) But it's a great way to figure out what your riders want.

It's just how design works. You have a new dining car prototype with room for, say, 10-15 tables. Why on Earth would you just test one type of table? Amtrak is looking at a couple of options. And seeing how they fit in the space. It's a lot cheaper to build one prototype with 5 different sets of tables (and then pick one table) than it is to build 5 prototypes all with the same type of table (and then still pick one table).

What the Viewliner II Diner won't have:

• A white interior.
• 5 different styles of table.
• An untested design.

What the Viewliner II Diner will have:

• 1 type of table, based on employee feedback and testing.
• 1 type of bench, based on employee feedback and testing.
• A pleasant color scheme.
• More windows than the current fleet of diners.
• A handicap-accessible table.
• A galley door.
• A tested design.

So chill, people. Based on the reaction here, I think it's a bad thing this photo made the rounds. I'd rather most of you be kept in the dark. It just gives you an outlet to insult Amtrak about something you don't understand and which they're not even doing.

 

[Ryan]

Excellent post. It also worth noting that this:

Amtrak is doing the same thing. They've built a simple prototype. And I'm glad they have. Would you rather they not build a mockup? Would you rather they built a whole line of diners that had some sort of logistical flaw? Or would you rather that you just didn't see a picture of a work in progress?

... is exactly why the 8400 VL Diner sat for years and years and years instead of being in service.

So kudos to Amtrak (anathema to some, I know) for actually learning from their mistakes.

 

[TVRM610]

This CCC design is ridiculous. I can't think of one person who likes the CCC design. I don't think the crews like it. Why would they turn around and create crap like this with the viewliner prototype. The 4 seater tables have worked well for years. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. I was really excited about the viewliner diner, but now I am dreading it.

I like the CCC design, so now you can't say that not one person likes it. I've eaten in several in both types of booths and I like them very well. The only diner design I like more is the terimosa design. If you actually studied old railroad dining cars you might be surprised to find that the CCC design is not that different from some streamlined era dining cars which had tables in all sorts of configurations.

 

[AlanB]

These new cars will have aisles that are wider than existing diners (similar to California Cars) because of ADA requirements. Wider aisles make for narrower tables and existing diner tables are already narrow for two people.

I wonder if the 8400 has to meet the same ADA requirements, because it is technically a "old" car? The reason I ask, is that this would have a strong effect on if the 8400 has an interior just like the new Viewliner diners.

ADA was considered with the design and in fact one table by the door is now wheelchair accessible. You'd have to be in the sleeping car attached to the diner in order to roll into the diner in your chair, but for the passenger booking that room in the first sleeper it will now be possible to roll into the diner and remain in your wheelchair.

All of that however has nothing to do with any effect on how 8400 will look compared to the new Viewliner dining cars. 8400 will look exactly like the new dining cars unless Amtrak finds a problem with the current design/layout. While a small part of the reason for bring back 8400 was to ease the current shortage of single level dining cars, the primary reason that 8400 came back is so Amtrak can test the planned layout for the new diners before they start rolling off the production line. Therefore, unless as noted a problem crops up, the new cars will look exactly like 8400.

 

[had8ley]

I'll pass judgment on the day I get to ride the real equipment. The reason? I was involved in the mock-ups of todays "comfort cabs" in the late 70's. The original mock up, developed by Boeing-Vertol in South Philly, had no grab irons, they wanted to put the toilet in back like the older GE's had. It took three weeks to convince them that they needed to re-design the toilet facilities and I think they did a great job. Then they sold the rights to Canada ! Go figure~ DOT money that went no where but north.

 

[Donctor]

BTW does anyone know what the interior layout of the prototype Viewliner of a few years ago is like? I do not believe that it was ever put in service and is still at the Beach Grove shops for testing and evaluation.

Saw it in the yard when leaving CHI on 8/14. It has come up on 850/851 a few times.

 

[PerRock]

The Viewliner Diner saw some service while it was in phase III & IV. The only picture I know of from when it was in service is this one:

http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakonline/Mike02.jpg Saddly it doesn't show much.

peter

 

[Ryan]

It's also been completely gutted and rebuilt since then.

 

[PerRock]

there is also this:

http://www.railfandepot.com/catalog/AM-ViewlinerDiagrams-550.jpg

there is a pic of it gutted out there but I need to get to my train now.

peter

 

[TVRM610]

The Viewliner Diner saw some service while it was in phase III & IV. The only picture I know of from when it was in service is this one:

http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakonline/Mike02.jpg Saddly it doesn't show much.

peter

I remember eating dinner on the viewliner diner on the Crescent years ago. I don't really remember anything special about it as far as design. It had the beige color scheme that Amtrak was using for a while if I recall correctly.