Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[AmtrakBlue]

I, for one, wash my face each morning. That is the type of washing up I was referring too. Then there's brushing my teeth. Maybe do a sponge bath rather than take a shower. If you want to wait for me while I do all this in the public bathroom, fine.

 

[dlagrua]

Well, at risk of carrying this topic further than it needs, the Superliner roomettes also don't have sinks. Frankly, I'm puzzled by the sinks still being included. I thought part of the argument against the roomette toilets was the complex plumbing. While I'm sure it's slightly reduced by not having both a toilet and sink, I don't see the need for a sink without a toilet.

To make the limited bathrooms available to those who need to use a toilet by letting me wash up in my roomette, perhaps.

I sincerely hope that I am wrong, so that before you wash your face the sink, it will be clean. I just hope that there is always unabated bathroom access, but if the bathrooms go down, all bets are off! .

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Possible reasons there's been a go-slow on the Viewliner IIs.

=============================

Amtrak has been worrying about low working capital, and that concern peaks when winter weather depresses ridership and revenue.

Amtrak didn't want to do anything to provoke the crazies, like ordering more cars, until the new budget passed Congress.

Some crazies in Congress got so excited by the last government shut-down they want another. The need to raise the debt ceiling gives them another opportunity to create chaos. So Amtrak has to stash all its cash until that possible crisis is past.

The ACS-64s got delayed. Amtrak wanted to be sure that the new engines were going to be O.K. So their launch only came this week. Now with that behind them, the Viewliner IIs should be next up.

Amtrak wants to be absolutely sure it can pay for the new Viewliners before ordering more. Maybe the option deadline is tied to when Amtrak receives the first cars from CAF.

Amtrak considers the big order for new Acelas to be much more important than a bunch of LD cars. Offers are due from the equipment manufacturers in May, then the haggling will last all year. But if by the end of May, Amtrak has a good idea of how much the Acela order will cost, it will know what it can afford to spend $150 million or so on more Viewliners.

Amtrak wants to postpone the final payments to CAF until Fiscal 2015, and that's not really so very far away.

Amtrak wants a very large order for single-level coaches. It wants CAF to be able to bid for that work, but that won't be too soon.. But it needs the assembly lines at Elmira to be almost clear, before putting out that RFI or RFP.

CAF has made a mess of things.

===========================

I'm sure I've overlooked the best reason why we haven't see a Viewliner II in motion yet. But I'm starting to think we will not see them joining the fleet until Fiscal 2015.

 

[afigg]

Well, from a technical standpoint, isn't there some common plumbing? Both need a water supply, both need a drain connection. Eliminate one and sure you've eliminated half the plumbing, but you still have the same maintenance issues, just not as many.

From a human standpoint, I can't think of anything a sink in your room can be used for, that the sink in the public bathroom can't. Maybe you could make the argument of people washing their hands headed to the diner without having to wait for the public bathroom, but it's thin, frankly. Then there's the potable water angle, but do these sinks even have a dispenser of potable water?

There is a big difference in the drainage plumbing for s toilet versus a sink. The sink can be serviced by a small water pipe and small drain pipe. A toilet has a larger drainage pipe and the real world problem of people flushing things down the on-board toilet that they should not. Having a small sink in the roomette to wash up, brushing teeth, or rinse something off is not unreasonable.

 

[roomette]

Electric Razor only. No Hairdryer.

Also

 

[rickycourtney]

Well, from a technical standpoint, isn't there some common plumbing? Both need a water supply, both need a drain connection. Eliminate one and sure you've eliminated half the plumbing, but you still have the same maintenance issues, just not as many.

From a human standpoint, I can't think of anything a sink in your room can be used for, that the sink in the public bathroom can't. Maybe you could make the argument of people washing their hands headed to the diner without having to wait for the public bathroom, but it's thin, frankly. Then there's the potable water angle, but do these sinks even have a dispenser of potable water?

There is a big difference in the drainage plumbing for s toilet versus a sink. The sink can be serviced by a small water pipe and small drain pipe. A toilet has a larger drainage pipe and the real world problem of people flushing things down the on-board toilet that they should not. Having a small sink in the roomette to wash up, brushing teeth, or rinse something off is not unreasonable.

Also, understand that the toilets used on Amtrak trains are MUCH more complex than the toilet you use at home.

Your toilet at home requires gravity, water and a sewer connection (just like the sink in the roomettes).

I'll spare you the disgusting details of why, but Amtrak's macerator toilets also require a power and compressed air.

Myself, I plan to use the sink in my roomette to wash my hands before going to eat, wash my face before bed and brush my teeth. I'll still continue to use the sink in the restroom to wash my hands after using the facilities. I hope you will too.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Well, at risk of carrying this topic further than it needs, the Superliner roomettes also don't have sinks. Frankly, I'm puzzled by the sinks still being included. I thought part of the argument against the roomette toilets was the complex plumbing. While I'm sure it's slightly reduced by not having both a toilet and sink, I don't see the need for a sink without a toilet.

To make the limited bathrooms available to those who need to use a toilet by letting me wash up in my roomette, perhaps.

I sincerely hope that I am wrong, so that before you wash your face the sink, it will be clean. I just hope that there is always unabated bathroom access, but if the bathrooms go down, all bets are off! .

Do you have personal experience with the sink being used as a toilet? You are certainly obsessed with the notion that it has been used for that.

 

[Anderson]

Ok, guys...the sink/toilet discussion is a bit gross. Could we please change the topic?

 

[jis]

Ok, guys...the sink/toilet discussion is a bit gross. Could we please change the topic?

Only person who is truly into it seems to be dlagrua at this point He keeps circling back to it no matter what we post.

 

[Blackwolf]

The sinks in ALL Amtrak trains don't go to any retention tank or sewage connection. They drain out beneath the car, right onto the tracks. Same for the shower drains.

Next time you are alongside an Amtrak train, be aware of any dripping/running water beneath one of the cars.

That said, I like that a sink remains but the heads are history. Its a non-issue IMHO, that you'll be making a short walk down the hall to the facilities. Much like, oh, any other lodging situation, even your own home.

 

[afigg]

Possible reasons there's been a go-slow on the Viewliner IIs.

...

Amtrak wants to be absolutely sure it can pay for the new Viewliners before ordering more. Maybe the option deadline is tied to when Amtrak receives the first cars from CAF.

...

Amtrak wants to postpone the final payments to CAF until Fiscal 2015, and that's not really so very far away.

...

CAF has made a mess of things.

...

I'm sure I've overlooked the best reason why we haven't see a Viewliner II in motion yet. But I'm starting to think we will not see them joining the fleet until Fiscal 2015.

Remember a contract is a 2 way street. If CAF were building the cars on the original schedule, Amtrak would have to request CAF to delay production in order to delay progress payments. There are probably a number of reasons for the delays: CAF reportedly encountered difficulties in finding qualified workers to hire, design issues, manufacturing and training issues on the first units built, more recently CAF running into delays on the delivery and acceptance of equipment for Houston transit, and yes, maybe Amtrak asking CAF to slow production for a time while Amtrak managed the cash flow to get through the FY13 sequestration, govt shutdown, and waiting on a final FY14 budget. We will not know the reasons unless someone in Amtrak talks honestly about why the Vw IIs are not yet in testing on the NEC.
The final FY14 budget and latest Five year planning documents will probably be posted in the next few weeks. If there have been no announcements on or sightings of the Vw IIs before then, those documents should reveal the number of Vw IIs expected to enter revenue service by FY.

 

[Nathanael]

We know that there was a "stop work order" a while back which almost certainly delayed things by a year. This, from reading various "tea leaves" such as job advertisements and rumors, was probably due to a lack of expertise in stainless steel at CAF, which took a while to fix.

I don't know what is causing further delays, but after that incident I wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak is watching CAF very very carefully to make sure that there are no further screwups. These cars may be the most meticulously inspected before delivery of any railcars in North America today.

I doubt that Amtrak is deliberately delaying production for cash flow management reasons -- the cost of maintaining the Heritage cars is already outrageous and increasing.

But delaying production to make sure everything is *exactly right* -- well, Amtrak isn't going to get a second shot at this order. We know of long-standing irritations in the Amfleets, in the Viewliners, in the Superliners, and in the Horizons. It makes sense for Amtrak to eliminate every potential little problem with extreme care and excessive testing. If a Viewliner II has its pipes freeze up (for example), or if the door latches get stuck on the first day, some people will be very embarrassed.

These cars are going to be Amtrak's proof to Congress that long-distance sleeper, diner, and baggage car service, at least on the Eastern routes, can be profitable. They have to be showpiece quality.

And if production is being delayed for other reasons, such as the Houston Metro order, Amtrak doesn't want CAF to do a "rush job" on Amtrak's cars, so Amtrak will say "fine, we'll accept the delay".

If the timing of the option deadline is tied to the delivery of the first cars, then this would give an advantage to Amtrak from delaying. It would be very worthwhile to exercise that option, but cash flow was really tight for a while there.

TL;DR: I don't think Amtrak is deliberately delaying production, but I think they don't want CAF to rush anything, so they're taking it as slow as it needs to be to get it right.

 

[edjbox]

I heard that a viewliner 2 was on train 66 the other day. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Ryan]

I didn't see it, but heard the same thing from someone on the Facebook.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I heard that a viewliner 2 was on train 66 the other day. Can anyone confirm?

If Amtrak is "Secretly" Testing ViewlinerIIs/Bag Cars on the NEC @ Night someone is bound to Spot them and it will show up on the Train Forums or U-Tube! Perhaps our Amtrak Insiders can "Secretly" let us know if his is True it would be Good News indeed if Testing is Starting,! Spring is on the way and Amtrak can sure use some Good News to go along with the Better Weather!!!

 

[Acela150]

Well you know the old saying... I heard it on the internet so it MUST be true....

This rumor got started by someone saying they saw a "Viewliner II" on 66.. When it was most likely a deadhead for 449.. So someone starting a rumor that is completely false.

 

[afigg]

Well you know the old saying... I heard it on the internet so it MUST be true....

This rumor got started by someone saying they saw a "Viewliner II" on 66.. When it was most likely a deadhead for 449.. So someone starting a rumor that is completely false.

The report on railroad.net is that someone on facebook posted that they saw 4 to 5 Viewliners on a train in Binghamton NY. Which is at least plausible if the first set of Viewliners are being moved to an Amtrak facility on the NEC for inspection and testing. It would be very unlikely that a new Viewliner would be on a revenue train. But these are unsubstantiated reports. I would expect a press release and dog & pony show shortly after the test set of Viewliners are delivered.

 

[ACS-64]

Well you know the old saying... I heard it on the internet so it MUST be true....

This rumor got started by someone saying they saw a "Viewliner II" on 66.. When it was most likely a deadhead for 449.. So someone starting a rumor that is completely false.

Bingo that was just the "Tranquil View" deadheading to Boston.

 

[jis]

Speaking of Viewliner - prototype Viewliner 2301, which in 2001 became 62091 "Eastern View", has now reappeared as a track inspection car name "American View" with number 10004. This information appeared in the April 2014 issue of Railpace (sans the name allocation info) reported by the like of Marc Maglieri from Amtrak.

Those of you who keep track of such things will recall that the name "American View" was originally allocated to the first production Viewliner I 62000. But of course all production Viewliners have sort of lost their names, and apparently this name has now been commandeered for the newly released inspection car built out of a prototype Viewliner Sleeper.

Of course this has got all the uninformed masses who are convinced that LD trains will cease to exist, that one of the production Viewliners has been withdrawn to make it this car. Which actually is not true. But some are going on and on about it in the usual way.

 

[trainman74]

"American View" is an appropriate name for an inspection car!

 

[edjbox]

When will they start testing them?

 

[Acela150]

This new car is a theatre style car. It looks great!

 

[NE933]

It seems there is sentiment share by some that yes the Viewliner Theater looks nice, but is it a form of corporate extravagance by Joe Boardman that we and Amtrak can not afford. And it leaves a bad taste in alot of people mouth that this was one of the three prototypes, and as such, should be used right here and now as a prototype for cafe lounges and coaches that Amtrak has to start buying., instead of a car with a glass wall -- that already exists in Beech Grove and Corridor Clipper.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Oh please, the original Viewliners cars were rusting away. This is a good reuse of something that would otherwise have been scrapped. Amtrak can design new coaches and lounges from scratch.

 

[afigg]

It seems there is sentiment share by some that yes the Viewliner Theater looks nice, but is it a form of corporate extravagance by Joe Boardman that we and Amtrak can not afford. And it leaves a bad taste in alot of people mouth that this was one of the three prototypes, and as such, should be used right here and now as a prototype for cafe lounges and coaches that Amtrak has to start buying., instead of a car with a glass wall -- that already exists in Beech Grove and Corridor Clipper.

The Viewliner prototype that was converted to the 10004 American View is not a company office car. It is a track and ROW inspection car with a large window on the back with theater style seating inside so people can inspect the ROW. It reportedly also has track geometry and sensor equipment on-board. Saw the photos on railroad.net and it looks nice, but it is fresh out of the shops. But how is a system maintenance car a form of corporate extravagance?

Maybe it will be on public display at WAS or PHL on National Train Day so people can check it out.