Viewliner II Part 2: Dining Car Production, Delivery, Speculation

[me_little_me]

Time for the Bag Dorms to start rolling down the Line, but with the current de-emphasis on Checked Baggage and destaffing Stations, perhaps Amtrak should negotiate starting the Sleeper Production instead???

The bagdorms can be used instead of the baggage cars which can then be repurposed without modification and used as private cars for Amtrak management!

 

[cpotisch]

I am just glad that someone else asked "Are we there yet?" ;-) Because I have been dieing to ask the same question for the past week. I really want to see the last of the diners show up and for CAF to move on to delivering the next type of cars. One day, maybe in my lifetime, I hope to see the new VLII sleepers. I usually use the Super Liner sleepers but I may make an exception and use one of the new sleepers if I can be sure of getting one of the new, not the old, ones on the Capitol Limited. My next trip is in May, so it won't happen next year, I guess. Maybe in 2020.

Yeah, I don't know that there's much indication that the V-II sleepers will end up on the Capitol anytime soon. It's been talked about, but to my knowledge, not confirmed in any way.

 

[Ziv]

I am probably remembering what I wanted to hear, but I thought there was a good chance that the Cap Limited would eventually go single level so as to give more coach car and sleeper car capacity to the western LD trains. I grew up next to the Empire Builder, and that is my favorite train. I would like to see the EB and CZ and the Chief get more cars, in the hope that they could fill the new cars as well as the old, and maybe come even closer to being profitable. And maybe make it easier for me to get a low bucket fare on my shoulder month travels!

What I don't remember is where the coach cars would come from, since the CAF order doesn't have any as of yet, and it is doubtful that CAF wants to build any more cars at the prices on the current contract. Add to that the fact that I have no idea where the cars from the Sumitomo/Siemens buy will end up. My guess/best memory is that they will still almost all going to CA and the Midwest.

It just seems like with the retirement of so much debt, this is the time to make the investments that will allow Amtrak to grow, both in the amount of cars per train and also perhaps, in adding train frequencies on the more successful/profitable routes. But I don't think the way forward is to cannibalize routes. Even though I have never ridden the Cardinal, I would not want to see it eliminated to grow the remaining routes.

Sorry for the lack of knowledge I present when it comes to Amtrak and its rolling stock! The scary part is that I know a lot more now than I did a year ago...

I am just glad that someone else asked "Are we there yet?" ;-) Because I have been dieing to ask the same question for the past week. I really want to see the last of the diners show up and for CAF to move on to delivering the next type of cars. One day, maybe in my lifetime, I hope to see the new VLII sleepers. I usually use the Super Liner sleepers but I may make an exception and use one of the new sleepers if I can be sure of getting one of the new, not the old, ones on the Capitol Limited. My next trip is in May, so it won't happen next year, I guess. Maybe in 2020.

Will we ever see the VL Sleepers???

I think I'll celebrate the delivery of the V-II sleepers at my retirement party.

Although many members on here have made plans about making the change, there are no formal plans that I am aware of to change the Capitol Limited from Viewliner to Amfleet. There is currently a vast shortage of Amfleets and it will take a while before there is a drastic increase in the number of Viewliners, as the old ones must be renovated once the new ones come in. Anderson has also indicated that there are plans for a Superliner replacement, likely from Siemens or some other manufacturer who can deliver cars must faster than CAF has. In my opinion, the CL will remain with Superliners until the Superliner replacement cars begin arriving, although it is certainly possible that they may end up being single-level and the same as the Amfleet replacements if Anderson prioritizes standardization. It is also possible that the Amfleet replacements come before the Superliner replacements, which could change things but I predict they won't be far apart if both do end up happening as Anderson may not be around for many years but will try to get both projects at least started as soon as possible. As I said, this is just my prediction based on the information available and the CL could change to single-level in the next year, but it would likely require an unexpected change such as the cancellation of the Cardinal.

 

[cpotisch]

What I don't remember is where the coach cars would come from, since the CAF order doesn't have any as of yet, and it is doubtful that CAF wants to build any more cars at the prices on the current contract.

That strikes me as a bit of an understatement, More like, "CAF probably won't even remotely consider building any more Viewliner IIs, or any other Amtrak car order for that matter, pretty much regardless of the price." The V-II order was such a disaster, and cost CAF so much money, that I bet they'd declare bankruptcy before they make any extra V-IIs. Some of that might be a bit conjectural, but that's my take given what I've heard.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I am probably remembering what I wanted to hear, but I thought there was a good chance that the Cap Limited would eventually go single level so as to give more coach car and sleeper car capacity to the western LD trains. I grew up next to the Empire Builder, and that is my favorite train. I would like to see the EB and CZ and the Chief get more cars, in the hope that they could fill the new cars as well as the old, and maybe come even closer to being profitable. And maybe make it easier for me to get a low bucket fare on my shoulder month travels!

What I don't remember is where the coach cars would come from, since the CAF order doesn't have any as of yet, and it is doubtful that CAF wants to build any more cars at the prices on the current contract. Add to that the fact that I have no idea where the cars from the Sumitomo/Siemens buy will end up. My guess/best memory is that they will still almost all going to CA and the Midwest.

It just seems like with the retirement of so much debt, this is the time to make the investments that will allow Amtrak to grow, both in the amount of cars per train and also perhaps, in adding train frequencies on the more successful/profitable routes. But I don't think the way forward is to cannibalize routes. Even though I have never ridden the Cardinal, I would not want to see it eliminated to grow the remaining routes.

Sorry for the lack of knowledge I present when it comes to Amtrak and its rolling stock! The scary part is that I know a lot more now than I did a year ago...

I am just glad that someone else asked "Are we there yet?" ;-) Because I have been dieing to ask the same question for the past week. I really want to see the last of the diners show up and for CAF to move on to delivering the next type of cars. One day, maybe in my lifetime, I hope to see the new VLII sleepers. I usually use the Super Liner sleepers but I may make an exception and use one of the new sleepers if I can be sure of getting one of the new, not the old, ones on the Capitol Limited. My next trip is in May, so it won't happen next year, I guess. Maybe in 2020.

Will we ever see the VL Sleepers???

I think I'll celebrate the delivery of the V-II sleepers at my retirement party.

Although many members on here have made plans about making the change, there are no formal plans that I am aware of to change the Capitol Limited from Viewliner to Amfleet. There is currently a vast shortage of Amfleets and it will take a while before there is a drastic increase in the number of Viewliners, as the old ones must be renovated once the new ones come in. Anderson has also indicated that there are plans for a Superliner replacement, likely from Siemens or some other manufacturer who can deliver cars must faster than CAF has. In my opinion, the CL will remain with Superliners until the Superliner replacement cars begin arriving, although it is certainly possible that they may end up being single-level and the same as the Amfleet replacements if Anderson prioritizes standardization. It is also possible that the Amfleet replacements come before the Superliner replacements, which could change things but I predict they won't be far apart if both do end up happening as Anderson may not be around for many years but will try to get both projects at least started as soon as possible. As I said, this is just my prediction based on the information available and the CL could change to single-level in the next year, but it would likely require an unexpected change such as the cancellation of the Cardinal.

I also would not support the cancellation of the Cardinal; I was just mentioning what could happen if it were to be canceled. I actually prefer Superliners, so for me that would mean the loss of one route and the downgrading of another.
I agree that this is a good time for Amtrak to order new cars, and I am actually hopeful that some progress will be made soon. The RFP is already out for locomotives and there have been indications that another RFP for passenger cars may not be far behind. As much as I am concerned about some of the other policies of the current Amtrak administration, they seem to be serious about improving the shortage of equipment.

 

[west point]

IMHO superliners are not tall enough to equal the V-2s in sleeper and coach space. However with CHI clearances what they are taller b-levels are not possible.

 

[Eric S]

Add to that the fact that I have no idea where the cars from the Sumitomo/Siemens buy will end up. My guess/best memory is that they will still almost all going to CA and the Midwest.

Those cars will all be going to California and the Midwest (Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri) - which are the states that purchased them (as opposed to Amtrak).

 

[Ziv]

Siemens seems to be delivering the goods so maybe Amtrak should buy some of their own cars to the same spec as the CA/midwest order. You have to start somewhere and a relatively modest investment could get them 30 or 40 new coach cars.

 

[jis]

Interesting article on The ongoing Viewliner II saga in the July 2018 issue of Trains Mag on page 54. Recommended reading.

It has an interesting explanation of why 15 Bag-Dorms were converted to 15 Baggage Cars.

It also gives a new timeline quoting Magliari of Amtrak and Tomar of CAF- All Diner cars delivered by the end of 2018. Sleeper delivery commences mid-2019, and the first to be delivered will be the 10 Bag Dorms. So one could surmise that we will probably not see any Sleepers on the property until 2020, unless rate of delivery picks up substantially post mid-2019.

Furthermore it gives the impression that while the shells and a prototype are done the rest of the design for production of the Sleepers is still being finalized.

There is a hint that engineering changes came in late, after initial shell construction had started, which apparently caused a whole lot of reworking to be needed slipping deadlines in a big way.

On Page 56 there is an interesting article How to use the cars, proposing among other things:

• LSL Diner and 4 Sleepers and a Bag Dorm
• A Boston - Chicago LSL2 on a flipped schedule that carries a New York Sleeper connecting to it on an Empire Service train.
• Meteor with 4 Sleepers, flipping a Sleeper to the Card in the summer months as a possibility
• Combined Silver Star/Carolinian with 3 Sleepers and a Diner, but oddly, no Cafe south of Raleigh apparently. I don't know why that makes any sense
• Crescent with 4 Sleepers, two of which are short turned at Atlanta. Good luck with that. The alternative suggested with not much equipment requirement analysis is to institute the Crescent Star. This needs to be better thought out than is in th article.
• Daily Cardinal with one Sleeper and Diner. I would offload at least one Sleeper from Crescent to add another Sleeper to the Card, specially since no one will short turn anything in Atlanta in the foreseeable future.
• 65/66/67 with a Sleeper

Anyway, an interesting read, and many of the ideas quite reasonable, though possibly not really implementable for various extraneous reasons.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

One think we can start a new thread with this proposal.

Not at the house, is this Amtrak proposal or just Trains proposal?

.

 

[MikefromCrete]

One think we can start a new thread with this proposal.

Not at the house, is this Amtrak proposal or just Trains proposal?

.

It's a proposal by Bob Johnston, Trains' passenger rail reporter.

 

[west point]

About cut off cars in Atlanta. The PRIAA for the Crescent ( which appears to have been deleted ) stated that there would be a very shortened Crescent south of Atlanta. Just 1 loco, baggage, sleeper ( or maybe a bag dorm ) diner or just a lounge; and 2 coaches. That does sound much like the builder west of Spokane,

North of Atlanta 2 locos, 4 - 6 coaches diner, lounge, 3-6 sleepers , baggage. That is an example of the dichotomy of the Crescent's ridership. South of ATL extra cars when demand warranted.

8 -10 less cars not needed south of ATL would mean

A published figure of operating a passenger car was given as ~ $4.00 per mile some time ago. if that included OBS is unknown. some OBS laying over in ATL might be extra costs

SO:

518 miles times 2 a day times 30 days a month times $4.00 = savings of ~ $125k month or $1.5 M / year per car

Now to do the necessary switching at ATL would require a switch and siding south of ATL station and maybe an additional 2 switches north of station on main tack and present siding. As well permanent HEP, potable water, and lav servicing available on the steel stub tracks. 2 cut off cars not enough financially

as well an Amtrak switcher with crew to switch the rear end of Crescent both directions. Trailing loco could pull lead cars going south with lead loco pulling ahead of new installed switch. North bound lead loco could disconnect with baggage and dropped loco could back onto train

disconnect and lead loco could become second loco attached. Now what delays would occur for PTC initialization is unknown.

Large capital costs and getting available cars is also a consideration.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The new and improved Atlanta Station was to be a stub track. Back in both directions so to drop cars there only requires road power.

Last report nothing going forward on this station.

Still think a park and ride station on the west side of Atlanta would do nicely. Even if it required a switcher and crew. Cover the lack of parking at the current station.

 

[jis]

In any case, if the current projected delivery dates hold, we will have to worry about such things in mid-2020 at the earliest, and more likely in 2021. No point in getting overly excited about it already. Let us focus on tracking delivery schedules and such.

At this rate the new Diesels and possibly even early delivery of Coaches from yet to be placed orders may come in before this order is completed. Sigh....

 

[AmtrakBlue]

At this rate the new Diesels and possibly even early delivery of Coaches from yet to be placed orders may come in before this order is completed. Sigh....

Well, Atlanta is in the south, where things tend to go slow, including their speech.

(I was born in GA, so I"m part southerner - parents are from mid-atlantic).

 

[cpotisch]

Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.

 

[frequentflyer]

Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.

Take this with a grain of salt, but I read on another forum that Amtrak may have grounds to cancel the contract do to CAF not meeting certain criterias and CAF at this stage would be ok with that happening. Again, a grain of salt.

 

[cpotisch]

Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.

Take this with a grain of salt, but I read on another forum that Amtrak may have grounds to cancel the contract do to CAF not meeting certain criterias and CAF at this stage would be ok with that happening. Again, a grain of salt.

Yikes. A slightly salty yikes, but yikes nonetheless.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.

The last three diners will not be out for a while, but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.

 

[cpotisch]

Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.

The last three diners will not be out for a while, but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.

Six diners, actually.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.

The last three diners will not be out for a while, but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.

Six diners, actually.

Maybe 3 are due out sooner than later???

 

[Thirdrail7]

Routing details being finalized.

 

[Ziv]

Great news! I have been hoping to see this "scope" for a couple weeks!

Routing details being finalized.

 

[cpotisch]

Routing details being finalized.

Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!

 

[bcanedy]

Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!

I think you mean “sleeping car lounges”.

[emoji6]