Viewliners and Superliners ... what would you change?

[AFriendly]

If engineering and cost considerations are a limiting factor, bilevel makes a lot more sense for corridors and other heavily traveled routes. In that regard the Siemens purchase is a missed opportunity in my opinion- much, much more capacity could have been added to those routes. There's a variety of bilevel commuter equipment that operates just fine on the NEC, I have difficulty seeing how those designs couldn't have been adapted for intercity use. Standardizing long distance on single-level equipment that can go anywhere in the system makes the most sense.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

It’s such a cluster for lack of better words, in every aspect. The money is there (or could be) for new cars. Amtrak desperately needs new rolling stock but Amtrak management appears to just want to kick the can down the road and hope the long distance trans disappear somehow or some way.

The number one goal should be an immediate refurbishment of the Superliners and V1’s to give them 10 years more life. I know that refurbishments have been talked about but I’m still waiting for convection ovens that Anderson and Gardner claimed were being installed in the V2 diners/lounges 5 years ago. I personally think a solid refurbishment plan is the best outcome now. The current management isn’t of the proper mindset to make such an important order that will potentially serve Amtrak for 30 plus years.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

And as to the elevators on the Alaska Railroad - does anyone believe that Amtrak mechanical would be up to maintaining them? Also, they take up considerable area, causing a loss of seating capacity in any car where they are located.

Technically, the lifts would only need to be installed on lounges and diners correct? Wheelchairs can’t fit through the diaphragms anyways I don’t think.

Either way, there are solutions.

I’m still waiting for convection ovens that Anderson and Gardner claimed were being installed in the V2 diners/lounges 5 years ago.

What are they using to heat up the melas? I thought those were the airline style convection ovens.

 

[jis]

Well if that's the case, if Amtrak doesn't fight it, I'm sure the airlines will. I don't think airlines want to remove a seat so wheelchairs can get to the back of the aircraft.

The airline ADA rules completely different from the rail ones and are created and managed by different outfits. What happens on rails bears little relationship to what happens on airlines.

 

[PVD]

The airline ADA rules completely different from the rail ones and are created and managed by different outfits. What happens on rails bears little relationship to what happens on airlines.

If I recall, it is a totally separate law....

 

[Ryan]

I believe that Superliners will eventually be phased out because no manufacturer has the capability to make them. I see an all Viewliner fleet in 10 years.

If by "Viewliner" you really mean "single level equipment, I completely agree. If you mean an actual "viewliner", you're sadly mistaken. We'll never see another one manufactured.

It’s such a cluster for lack of better words, in every aspect. The money is there (or could be) for new cars. Amtrak desperately needs new rolling stock but Amtrak management appears to just want to kick the can down the road and hope the long distance trans disappear somehow or some way.

There is a plan, it was linked to in the 4th post of the thread. They are executing to that plan. It's the exact opposite of a cluster.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

We'll never see another one manufactured.

there is no reason viewliner cars can not be manufactured in the future.

 

[PVD]

But there is no reason they would be. Other than the shell, anything designed for today's use would be made of different components, not the least of which would be roof /ceiling mounted package ac at each end. A long in the tooth VL design brings little to the table other making a few people happy because they are hung up on common appearance of consists.

 

[TransitTyrant]

If engineering and cost considerations are a limiting factor, bilevel makes a lot more sense for corridors and other heavily traveled routes. In that regard the Siemens purchase is a missed opportunity in my opinion- much, much more capacity could have been added to those routes. There's a variety of bilevel commuter equipment that operates just fine on the NEC, I have difficulty seeing how those designs couldn't have been adapted for intercity use. Standardizing long distance on single-level equipment that can go anywhere in the system makes the most sense.

The Bilevels for the Midwest and California failed which is why we have the Venture coaches. Currently there is no bilevel design ready for production so it makes sense that Amtrak just piggybacked off the states. The one advantage with ordering everything from Siemens is a commonality of parts which could ease maintenance in the future.

 

[Ryan]

there is no reason viewliner cars can not be manufactured in the future.

Like the nice man said above. Sure, they can be. But there's less than zero chance Amtrak pays someone to do it.

 

[John819]

The Viewliner is basically a 30 year old design; the VL II is an updated (some would say also downgraded in terms of capacity) version.

We need a new design. Fortunately, we can build on the Venture shell, so only the interior needs design.

But this will be a race between getting new equipment and the old cars falling apart.

 

[Qapla]

So as not to derail another thread - in this thread we can discuss:

In the other thread

The Viewliner/Superliner is basically a 30 year old design ... We need a new design.

So, exactly what would you change or like to see?

 

[Qapla]

We need a new design

Just curious ... what part needs redesigning? What would you change ...

So as not to be off-topic in this thread ... we can discuss this question here

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/viewliners-and-superliners-what-would-you-change.83030/

MODERATOR NOTE: two similar threads merged

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Like the nice man said above. Sure, they can be. But there's less than zero chance Amtrak pays someone to do it.

I’ve just learned that in railroading, never say never.

I could see more viewliners being built in the future - there is nothing wrong with the design.

The USA needs a passenger rail car manufacturer like Colorado Railcar - a company that really gets it. Maybe I’ll start one in my free time! Haha.

 

[MARC Rider]

I could see more viewliners being built in the future - there is nothing wrong with the design.

[/QUOTE]

Do you mean the exterior design or what's inside? While the exterior design might be fine, I'm sure that the mechanical and electrical specs dating from the 1980s are obsolete. (Yeah, that's how old the design is. I got to have breakfast in the prototype Viewliner diner in 1988 while riding the Capitol Limited). Not to mention, as someone else has here, that the HVAC needs to be placed on the roof, like all modern passenger railcars. Which means that, yeah, it might be cool to have new single-level railcars that look like Viewliners on the outside, but in terms of what's inside, I would hope that they're a completely new design.

However, given the economics of railcar procurement, I would think that Amtrak would prefer to just buy an off-the shelf product from a reputable railcar manufacturer who has experience producing products that meet the American regulatory standards and not try to complicate things by insisting on some sort of custom product.

The USA needs a passenger rail car manufacturer like Colorado Railcar - a company that really gets it. Maybe I’ll start one in my free time! Haha.

They really "got it" so well that they went out of business.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I'm sure that the mechanical and electrical specs dating from the 1980s are obsolete.

Cars that were just delivered in the last year or 2 have obsolete mechanical and electrical specs?

They really "got it" so well that they went out of business.

They made a great product. If they had lasted until the “buy America” I’m guessing they would have made it.

 

[west point]

All this talk of using Venture cars for sleepers ignore one factor. The framing design of the Ventures may not be the same as the present V-2 design. What that means is that the sleeper modules "MAY" not fit in Ventures. As well the framing most likely will be different which may mean window locations would not work.. If framing has to e changed means a Siemens crush test after design is finalized. Now if Siemens or another car builder will use the V-2 designs and plans then the crush test might not be needed.

 

[daybeers]

There’s no reason the existing cars can’t continue after major overhauls.

I'm not sure about that; maybe you'd get a few years out of them, but they've been falling apart for a while now.

 

[MARC Rider]

They made a great product. If they had lasted until the “buy America” I’m guessing they would have made it.

When have there never been "Buy American" provisions on procurements funded with tax dollars?

Looking at the Wikipedia article about the company, it seems that they were severely undercapitalized and thus not able to effectively compete with other American railcar manufacturers like Siemens, Stadler, Alstom, Kawasaki, etc.

 

[MARC Rider]

I'm not sure about that; maybe you'd get a few years out of them, but they've been falling apart for a while now.

The Canadian is running with cars built in the 1950s. Perhaps they've been overhauled so many times that they might not have much of their original materials in them outside of the frame and shell, but if VIA can keep 70 year old equipment running, Amtrak ought to be able to get a couple more decades out of 40 year old equipment.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

All this talk of using Venture cars for sleepers ignore one factor. The framing design of the Ventures may not be the same as the present V-2 design. What that means is that the sleeper modules "MAY" not fit in Ventures. As well the framing most likely will be different which may mean window locations would not work.. If framing has to e changed means a Siemens crush test after design is finalized. Now if Siemens or another car builder will use the V-2 designs and plans then the crush test might not be needed.

Siemens design railcars are a open tube design. So they can be fitted with any interior equipment required. Siemens did this to avoid the one off models. Also if your builder of railcars are looking for a excuse to avoid a crush test, you might want to find another builder.

 

[PVD]

If anyone wants a look at some of the thinking on car design read the NGEC single level car docs. And those are getting old. As to many of the interior modules, they have been mfd by Railplan, I would be shocked if they could not be built to a slightly different shape or size.

 

[joelkfla]

If anyone wants a look at some of the thinking on car design read the NGEC single level car docs. And those are getting old. As to many of the interior modules, they have been mfd by Railplan, I would be shocked if they could not be built to a slightly different shape or size.

Please provide a link. All I could find via Google search were some PowerPoint slides.

 

[Qapla]

Interior of a Viewliner Coach



I have read several posts about the age of these cars and how much they need to be replaced/changed/redesigned - but exactly what needs to be "changed"?

Adding USB power would be a good move as long as they don't remove the 110v

Updating things like the A/C to heat pump and the lighting to LED I consider an "upgrade" not an actual "change" or redesign.

 

[PVD]

Please provide a link. All I could find via Google search were some PowerPoint slides.

I'll start looking around to see if I downloaded it and saved it on a flashdrive.