Washington DC Union Station Photo Flap

[Tony]

That is the mark of a rouge policy!

They have a rouge policy? What's next, a policy against lipstick and eyeliner?? What is this world coming to??!!

rouge

rogue

Right letters, wrong order.

 

[AKA]

Does this have anything to do with the You tube video showing a TSA officer asleep a shot time ago in Chicago? Maybe this guy saw it. If an Amtrak rep was on site names and numbers should have been taken and reported. This should have been settled then and there. Other wise it will go on. This guy is still out there. :angry:

 

[Tygercat]

I was at Union Station about a month ago, and took pictures of the Great Hall and outside facade with no problem. Several police officers- real ones, not rentacops like the guy in the Fox News story- saw me do this, and made no attempt to stop me. One nearly got in a shot by walking through! Maybe it's just who is doing the "enforcing"- real Amtrak or Metropolitan Police, or this private security company?

 

[Walt]

I was at Union Station about a month ago, and took pictures of the Great Hall and outside facade with no problem. Several police officers- real ones, not rentacops like the guy in the Fox News story- saw me do this, and made no attempt to stop me. One nearly got in a shot by walking through! Maybe it's just who is doing the "enforcing"- real Amtrak or Metropolitan Police, or this private security company?

Maybe it is just what you are photographing? Pictures of the just the building might be tolerable, but taking pictures of what they might consider security sensitive people, areas, and objects, might not be?

Try taking pictures of the officers or guards themselves, of "security only" doorways, etc, and possibly their response might be less friendly?

Or try taking pictures of the Amtrak execs, coming and going, which I think could have been the interpretation of the security guard in the TV news footage.

 

[Rafi]

I was at Union Station about a month ago, and took pictures of the Great Hall and outside facade with no problem. Several police officers- real ones, not rentacops like the guy in the Fox News story- saw me do this, and made no attempt to stop me. One nearly got in a shot by walking through! Maybe it's just who is doing the "enforcing"- real Amtrak or Metropolitan Police, or this private security company?

Maybe it is just what you are photographing? Pictures of the just the building might be tolerable, but taking pictures of what they might consider security sensitive people, areas, and objects, might not be?

Try taking pictures of the officers or guards themselves, of "security only" doorways, etc, and possibly their response might be less friendly?

Or try taking pictures of the Amtrak execs, coming and going, which I think could have been the interpretation of the security guard in the TV news footage.

Walt, I understand what you're saying, but that security guard didn't know who Cliff was, guaranteed. Most of those security guards don't even know Amtrak's headquarters are in that building. I've stood in front of the Amtrak police desk (not to be confused with Union Station security) and taken pictures of the concourse, and Alex Kummant has had his picture taken on-the-fly in that vicinity with railfans as well.

This is sadly a case of the Union Station security not having the correct training and briefing, and being completely out of sync with Amtrak Police.

Rafi

 

[MrFSS]

This is sadly a case of the Union Station security not having the correct training and briefing, and being completely out of sync with Amtrak Police.
Rafi

For whom do those security guards work, then?

 

[Rafi]

This is sadly a case of the Union Station security not having the correct training and briefing, and being completely out of sync with Amtrak Police.
Rafi

For whom do those security guards work, then?

Mall management. Remember, Union Station is a mall, technically speaking. So those security guards are basically the same as the mall guards you spot across the country, and they have run of the mall section and the Amtrak section. Amtrak maintains their own police presence in the Amtrak concourse and platform area.

Rafi

 

[wayman]

This is sadly a case of the Union Station security not having the correct training and briefing, and being completely out of sync with Amtrak Police.
Rafi

For whom do those security guards work, then?

Mall management. Remember, Union Station is a mall, technically speaking. So those security guards are basically the same as the mall guards you spot across the country, and they have run of the mall section and the Amtrak section. Amtrak maintains their own police presence in the Amtrak concourse and platform area.

And malls are very much private property, including the "public" concourses, halls, gathering spaces, etc. So within the *mall*, those guards are totally within their rights to enforce whatever policies the mall has (which, in my experience with other malls, can be seemingly-random and minimally-published). Their behavior is, in other words, completely typical for what I'd expect of "mall security". It just gets really bizarre when there's no obvious line between "mall concourse" and "station concourse".

Rafi, do you know how this works? Is Amtrak a tenant in the mall (ie, subject to mall supervision), are the mall shops tenants in the station (ie, subject to Amtrak's supervision), or are both the mall (under its own management) and Amtrak (under its own management) tenants of some third-party building owner (which may or may not have any actual policies of its own)? If it's the latter, yoiks, what a mess.

Though in theory if they're each clearly leasing specific space, it ought to be possible to draw lines of jurisdiction on the floor... not that that would ever work in practice.

 

[Tygercat]

I was at Union Station about a month ago, and took pictures of the Great Hall and outside facade with no problem. Several police officers- real ones, not rentacops like the guy in the Fox News story- saw me do this, and made no attempt to stop me. One nearly got in a shot by walking through! Maybe it's just who is doing the "enforcing"- real Amtrak or Metropolitan Police, or this private security company?

Maybe it is just what you are photographing? Pictures of the just the building might be tolerable, but taking pictures of what they might consider security sensitive people, areas, and objects, might not be?

Try taking pictures of the officers or guards themselves, of "security only" doorways, etc, and possibly their response might be less friendly?

Or try taking pictures of the Amtrak execs, coming and going, which I think could have been the interpretation of the security guard in the TV news footage.

I was taking pictures of the architecture and statuary of the front facade of the building, and the Great Hall, not in the mall or in any Amtrak operational areas. This may have been considered legal, or at least non-threatening. On the other hand, about two years ago, my husband and I were in Philadelphia's Gallery Mall/Market East SEPTA station, and took a picture of a mural of a steam locomotive. We were immediately approached by a security person who politely informed us that we could not take any more pictures for "security reasons" (a mural?). Then again, we've never had a problem taking pictures at 30th St Station, and we've done that several times. That nice security guy at Market East said it was because it was a train station, but maybe it really is the mall that is concerned, and not Amtrak or SEPTA.

 

[Rafi]

Rafi, do you know how this works? Is Amtrak a tenant in the mall (ie, subject to mall supervision), are the mall shops tenants in the station (ie, subject to Amtrak's supervision), or are both the mall (under its own management) and Amtrak (under its own management) tenants of some third-party building owner (which may or may not have any actual policies of its own)? If it's the latter, yoiks, what a mess.
Though in theory if they're each clearly leasing specific space, it ought to be possible to draw lines of jurisdiction on the floor... not that that would ever work in practice.

I'm really note sure, honestly. I do know this:

-Amtrak leases their office space in the station, presumably from the same entity that leases space to shops.

-Even though they're patrolling the Concourse, Platforms, and ticket area, Amtrak police do have the right to question/detain/arrest people anywhere in the mall and outside.

Beyond that, I don't know enough to be credible, unfortunately.

Rafi

 

[Gingee]

How about if you step off the train and take a picture of the Washington highlights from the platform? From what I can remember from before, I thought there was some spots that you can see Washington highlights from the train stops?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

In my experience, "rent-a-cops", such as mall-security, are people who want to be cops but don't qualify for any number of reasons. They tend to be petty tyrants, waving around their authority simply because they have it and can. Not all of them are, so don't read me as if that is what I am saying, but a lot of them are.

 

[Trogdor]

For what it's worth, a little over a month ago, some friends from Toronto were visiting Chicago, and were taking photos at the Quincy station on the Loop, when a police officer (not a rent-a-cop, but the actual transit detail division of the CPD) yelled from the other side of the platform that photography was not allowed without a permit.

I went over and spoke with the officer, trying to explain that photography was allowed (since I work for the CTA, and just so happened to have a copy of the photo policy on me at the time, in case any problems occurred). Despite it being clearly written on the document I had, the cops refused to accept that photography was allowed without a permit.

 

[AlanB]

For what it's worth, a little over a month ago, some friends from Toronto were visiting Chicago, and were taking photos at the Quincy station on the Loop, when a police officer (not a rent-a-cop, but the actual transit detail division of the CPD) yelled from the other side of the platform that photography was not allowed without a permit.
I went over and spoke with the officer, trying to explain that photography was allowed (since I work for the CTA, and just so happened to have a copy of the photo policy on me at the time, in case any problems occurred). Despite it being clearly written on the document I had, the cops refused to accept that photography was allowed without a permit.

I hope you took names so that their supervisor can explain it to them.

 

[Joel]

Everyone: This is Joel, the photographer quoted in the Fox 5 news piece. As to the question of the "shopping mall" sections of Amtrak:

- the retail management company--Jones Lang LaSalle--has a photography policy on their website, which requires working media or film crews to get permission. Fox 5 tried to get permission, and received no response. Lasalle's policy makes no mention of a prohibition on non-working photographers;

- the retail sections of Union Station are not specifically private space, like a regular shopping mall. Union Station is public/private space, the stores are woven throughout/adjoining Amtrak spaces, and therefore any division of spaces for the purposes of a policy is de facto impossible;

- Security at the station--both Lasalle and Amtrak--has repeatedly stopped photographers at various times from shooting both near Amtrak, and near retail sections, and always with conflicting policies seemingly made up on the fly. I've been told no photography anywhere in the station, I've been told photography is permitted in the main hall but not near Amtrak sections, I've been told to stop asking or police will be summoned;

- Union Station was reconstructed with the specific intent of combining public and private operations into a magnificent tourist gateway into the nation's capitol. Tourists naturally want to photograph various parts of this gorgeous station, and, as the Fox 5 piece demonstrates, there is zero consistency or logic in security personnel's approach to these matters.

best,

Joel Lawson

www.lawsonimage.com

 

[wkaemena]

Fox5-TV, Waashington, DC, 5/30:

Union Station Photo Flap
D.C. is a hotbed for beautiful photography. But one place where taking pictures is frowned upon is Union Station. Fox 5's Tom Fitzgerald investigates why security is telling people to turn off their cameras.

Video Story Here.

Once upon a time.... there was the communistic Soviet Union with similar rules.... now as communism has gone, paranoic USA is adopting these rules.....

 

[Joel]

"I'm astounded that Union Station would be declared private property, when we [Congress] issued the lease," Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-DC) said today, after she was provided with a list of policies written by Jones Lang LaSalle, the company which manages Union Station. LaSalle's policies--provided by the management company to FOX5, which then showed them to Norton--began by declaring Union Station as "private property."

"The Congress of the United States didn't realize it was selling Union Station, and it is not," Norton said.

Full details: http://lightboxdc.blogspot.com/

 

[Neil_M]

Fox5-TV, Waashington, DC, 5/30:

Union Station Photo Flap
D.C. is a hotbed for beautiful photography. But one place where taking pictures is frowned upon is Union Station. Fox 5's Tom Fitzgerald investigates why security is telling people to turn off their cameras.

Video Story Here.

Once upon a time.... there was the communistic Soviet Union with similar rules.... now as communism has gone, paranoic USA is adopting these rules.....

Its for your own good. You just don't realise yet how unsafe it is for you to take a photograph of a railway station, and you need to be protected from the vortex of danger and evil doing that you create around you.Or else.....

 

[wkaemena]

Fox5-TV, Waashington, DC, 5/30:

Union Station Photo Flap
D.C. is a hotbed for beautiful photography. But one place where taking pictures is frowned upon is Union Station. Fox 5's Tom Fitzgerald investigates why security is telling people to turn off their cameras.

Video Story Here.

Once upon a time.... there was the communistic Soviet Union with similar rules.... now as communism has gone, paranoic USA is adopting these rules.....

Its for your own good. You just don't realise yet how unsafe it is for you to take a photograph of a railway station, and you need to be protected from the vortex of danger and evil doing that you create around you.Or else.....

from my Apple OS built in Thesaurus: Paranoia: • suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without evidence or justification h34r: :lol:

 

[jis]

The operative word is "Terrorophobia" i.e. illogical fear of terror. This of course leads to all kinds of borderline tyrannical behavior by normally reasonable people who get a bit drunk with what they perceive as authority that has been bestowed upon them to protect everyone else from their own perceived follies.

Of course, when a real disaster strikes, this sort of behavior tends to be counterproductive because no one knows if they can actually believe anyone around them anymore, since too frequent a crying of "wolf" by these self-appointed protectors of whatever they think they protect, desensitizes everyone from the urgency of a message when the real one comes.

Now then.... last Monday I happened to be at Washington Union Station and shot away to my heart's content and no one seemed to be particularly excited about my behavior on that day. Maybe La Salle is too busy trying to figure out what their actual legal rights are, and their uninformed agents are lying low for the time being. Incidentally, Amtrak Police at Union Station has never bothered me for taking pictures.

OTOH, at New Haven station I was accosted by a rent-a-cop when I tried to take a picture of the nicely restored head house interior. He informed me that I was allowed to take pictures of people but not the building. So I just stood three people in front of me and then proceeded to take pictures of the building. Sigh....

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I have seen otherwise rational people do stupid things with regard to protecting themselves from terrorists.

I'm a person of many hobbies, and one of my hobbies is lock picking. If you asked me what kind of locks to put onto a house, I'd say to put a deadbolt on every door. I'd suggest, brand wise, Defiant, Schlage, Baldwin, or Pegasus. (If you want separate key locks, defiant is probably your best bet, keyed alike is the other three)

Any idiot could open a simple keyed-entry door knob. The operative device is a flathead screwdriver, jammed into the door jamb and pried. To protect yourself from hooligans, any deadbolt works. Why? Because you need either an electric pick-gun or some knowledge and skill picking locks to open them. By installing them, you've closed the door on about 95% of the people who break into homes.

If you want to stop 99.9% of them, get an Abloy. The average pick gun, which is designed for cylinder-tumbler locks, can't open them, nor can standard lock picks. Also, make sure your door is pretty solid- its most likely easier to break down the door then to pick the lock.

The other .1%? Get an automated flamethrower. You aren't going to stop them, sorry. If they are that determined to do something, and that skilled at doing it, they are going to accomplish it. Period.

Same thing with terrorists. You'll stop the dumber kids bringing guns on planes for kicks with basic metal detectors. You'll stop the slicker kids with more complicated searching mechanisms. You'll cut off basic dangerous criminals with the current system. But the muti-million dollar terrorist organizations whose members don't care if they die? You're kidding yourself.

 

[PerRock]

Hrrrm interesting......

Last time I was in WUS I called ahead to request permission to take pictures. When I called the Mall section they told me that all I had to do was "check in" at the Amtrak Police booth there at the gates and I was good to go. When I did "check in" Amtrak Police told me that there were no problems with me taking pictures at WUS, unless I wanted to go track side; which if I did I had to fill out some paperwork. I sadly spent all my time however in the postal service museum and so did not take any pictures so I can not vouch for WUS security getting on me and if the word of and AmCop is good enough to use as a permit...

peter

 

[user 1215]

It was a pretty hilarious piece with the guy coming up during the interview and stumbling all over himself. Notice the gal behind him waving "Hi Mom!"? Let's step away from Union Station for a moment. Washington DC has a HUGE number of security guards. No matter if you're in the Smithsonian or at Union Station, most of these security guards have absoultely no training in customer service. For example, when we visited the air and space museum last Labor Day, they were letting people into the musuem 5 minutes before 5 PM. And at 5 PM on the dot, security started sweeping every corner of the musem and refusing to let folks get that 'last shot' or even walking through an exhibit on the way out. Commercial museums close the entry 30 minutes before closing and generally allow folks to be out within 1/2 and hour after closing. I know that the Smithsonian is huge and that due to the sheer magnitude of the operation, there may have to be some tough rules, but rule enforcement should always be on the foundation of a known rule, and can always be carried out politely.

 

[user 1215]

Security Company featured in the piece:

http://www.ipcinternational.com/contact/