What is happening to the SWC route?

[George Harris]

Put it this way: I'd much rather ride the train on the Transcon than have the route severed or cancelled. And if ridership and revenue can be improved by the change, why then, that means more funds to try to expand the system somewhere else.... and goodness knows I can think of a dozen more valuable places to put money in to improve and expand the national rail system (South of the Lake exclusive tracks from Chicago to Porter, standalone train from MSP to CHI, corridor train across Iowa, New Orleans to Mobile, Bethelehem/Allentown PA, daily Cardinal, just off the top of my head...)

Daily Sunset, second New York to Atlanta train, at least two more New York to Chicago trains, just for starters.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Daily Texas Eagle CHI-LAX,Daily Cardinal run NYP-STL instead of CHI, Return of the Pioneer/Desert Wind, Coast Daylight and a resurrection of the Broadway Ltd.just for starters!

 

[Bedford]

How about a daily train connecting the two biggest cities in Texas connecting with the Eagle with sleeping car and serving the best university in Texas?

 

[Eric S]

How about a daily train connecting the two biggest cities in Texas connecting with the Eagle with sleeping car and serving the best university in Texas?

Two biggest cities? Or two biggest metropolitan areas?

 

[George Harris]

How about a daily train connecting the two biggest cities in Texas connecting with the Eagle with sleeping car and serving the best university in Texas?

Two biggest cities? Or two biggest metropolitan areas?

Been there, done that, too slow, not much ridership, gave up on it.

It would be a great idea, but unless the end to end run time can get under four hours at its worst the ridership will probably be pathetic. When SP had a train on this route it took 4 hours 25 minutes and they gave up on it long before the trains on the BRI route that made it in 4 hours went away. I think the discontinuance date for the SP trains was before 1960.

 

[henryj]

How about a daily train connecting the two biggest cities in Texas connecting with the Eagle with sleeping car and serving the best university in Texas?

Two biggest cities? Or two biggest metropolitan areas?

Been there, done that, too slow, not much ridership, gave up on it.

It would be a great idea, but unless the end to end run time can get under four hours at its worst the ridership will probably be pathetic. When SP had a train on this route it took 4 hours 25 minutes and they gave up on it long before the trains on the BRI route that made it in 4 hours went away. I think the discontinuance date for the SP trains was before 1960.

The Sunbeam and Hustler trains were discontinued in 1955 and 1956. The Sam Houston Zephyr in 1965. Houston to Dallas will get passenger rail when a private company sees that it can make money on the route such as the AAF project. The BNSF(former B-RI) route is just sitting there waiting. Fix up the track for 90-110 mph, eliminate some grade crossings and you can have 3 1/2 hour service. Probably not in our lifetime George. Neither Amtrak nor the state of Texas is going to fund it.

 

[George Harris]

How about a daily train connecting the two biggest cities in Texas connecting with the Eagle with sleeping car and serving the best university in Texas?

Two biggest cities? Or two biggest metropolitan areas?

Been there, done that, too slow, not much ridership, gave up on it.

It would be a great idea, but unless the end to end run time can get under four hours at its worst the ridership will probably be pathetic. When SP had a train on this route it took 4 hours 25 minutes and they gave up on it long before the trains on the BRI route that made it in 4 hours went away. I think the discontinuance date for the SP trains was before 1960.

The Sunbeam and Hustler trains were discontinued in 1955 and 1956. The Sam Houston Zephyr in 1965. Houston to Dallas will get passenger rail when a private company sees that it can make money on the route such as the AAF project. The BNSF(former B-RI) route is just sitting there waiting. Fix up the track for 90-110 mph, eliminate some grade crossings and you can have 3 1/2 hour service. Probably not in our lifetime George. Neither Amtrak nor the state of Texas is going to fund it.

Afraid you are right. However, if you chose to it could happen in 6 months to one year max. When the Sam Houston Zephyr went away it was at about the end of it being even possible. I have seen a track chart for this line. It is still something like half or better in 90 lb rail, the speed limit is 40 mph, and it has basic automatic block signalling, which was probably put in after the 1947 ICC order requiring signals to be allowed to run passenger trains at "60 mph or faster". The alignment is good with the exception of a few widely spaced curves if your target is 110. 3 1/2 hours might be pushing it, but 3h 45m should be fairly easy.

 

[afigg]

How about a daily train connecting the two biggest cities in Texas connecting with the Eagle with sleeping car and serving the best university in Texas?

Two biggest cities? Or two biggest metropolitan areas?

Been there, done that, too slow, not much ridership, gave up on it.

It would be a great idea, but unless the end to end run time can get under four hours at its worst the ridership will probably be pathetic. When SP had a train on this route it took 4 hours 25 minutes and they gave up on it long before the trains on the BRI route that made it in 4 hours went away. I think the discontinuance date for the SP trains was before 1960.

Or Dallas to Houston in 90 minutes if the backers of Texas Central Railway can get the necessary political support, assemble the financing, get through the long and slow environmental review process, get the permits, and acquire the ROW. Their website is on the sparse side, but they do have a lengthy team page. JR Central Railway appears to be quite serious about building a Dallas to Houston HSR corridor.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

How about a daily train connecting the two biggest cities in Texas connecting with the Eagle with sleeping car and serving the best university in Texas?

Two biggest cities? Or two biggest metropolitan areas?

. . .

It would be a great idea, but . . .

Or Dallas to Houston in 90 minutes if the backers of Texas Central Railway can . . . acquire the ROW. . . . JR Central Railway appears to be quite serious about building a Dallas to Houston HSR corridor.

I just dunno about that.

Open carry meets eminent domain?

Duck!

JR Central should know something of this. Tokyo's Narita Airport was planned to have five runways. Nearly 50 years gone by and it still has not acquired all the needed land.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Mexico City had the same problem with their proposed, badly needed new airport! The peasants backed by the drug cartels fought the government to a stand still and the biggest city in the world still has an inadequate, unsafe airport located on a sinking lake bed and trash dump!

You're sure right about the guns in Texas too, these folks beat down Rick Perry and his highways to everywhere scheme when Perry was at the height of his powers!

 

[cirdan]

It borders on criminal that this rich country of ours has such a skeletal rail system. As a result, important cities are forced to play a zero-sum game with each other to fight for service. Why can't we get everyone in the southwest to band together and lobby for trains on both routes?

I know, I'm dreaming. But really, we need to start thinking about ways to serve more places, not fewer.

It might even be possible to split the train where the routes diverge and have them recombine where they join. With journey times apparently being equivalent on both routes, that should be doable. That way more stations could get service without having to start a new route from scratch.

 

[henryj]

It borders on criminal that this rich country of ours has such a skeletal rail system. As a result, important cities are forced to play a zero-sum game with each other to fight for service. Why can't we get everyone in the southwest to band together and lobby for trains on both routes?

I know, I'm dreaming. But really, we need to start thinking about ways to serve more places, not fewer.

It might even be possible to split the train where the routes diverge and have them recombine where they join. With journey times apparently being equivalent on both routes, that should be doable. That way more stations could get service without having to start a new route from scratch.

I have always thought the route could support two trains a day even on the same route. But they have to keep the schedule in the low 40's to be competitive. It can start up as soon as Amtrak finds five more Superliner train sets. lol.

 

[printman2000]

It borders on criminal that this rich country of ours has such a skeletal rail system. As a result, important cities are forced to play a zero-sum game with each other to fight for service. Why can't we get everyone in the southwest to band together and lobby for trains on both routes?

I know, I'm dreaming. But really, we need to start thinking about ways to serve more places, not fewer.

It might even be possible to split the train where the routes diverge and have them recombine where they join. With journey times apparently being equivalent on both routes, that should be doable. That way more stations could get service without having to start a new route from scratch.

Though you still have the original problem of deteriorating rail that must be fixed.

So the cost of fixing the current route and the cost of adding the reroute. Plus the logistics of splitting/reconnecting the train in route would be a big hurdle.

Has splitting AND then reconnecting a train along a route ever happened before? Even pre-Amtrak?

 

[Ispolkom]

Has splitting AND then reconnecting a train along a route ever happened before? Even pre-Amtrak?

Burlington Northern ran the Western Star and the Mainstreeter together with the Black Hawk between Chicago and Minneapolis, then split the two long distance trains from Minneapolis to Spokane. This site says that the Portland sections of the two trains ran together from Pasco to Portland. That seems odd -- I'd think that they'd meet up in Spokane.

I think that at some point a similar swap of Portland and Seattle sections of the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited happened, but I don't know if the two trains ever ran together between Minneapolis and Chicago.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Its not quite what you asked but when the late Pioneer and Desert Wind ran out of CHI to the West Coast a Very Loooong Train left CHI since they were combined with the California Zephyr!

I honestly forget the exact details of the split between the Three Trains but in Utah the Pioneer headed for Washingtin State via Montana and Idaho, the Desert Wind headed for LAX via Vegas and the Zephyr for Oakland via Reno!

On the turn around the three were combined again in Utah I believe and the Looking Train headed back to CHI!!

 

[greatcats]

Honorable Mr. Hudson: I beg to differ. The Pioneer did not go through Montana. I rode it once in 1990 boarding in Boise. The three trains were combined in Salt Lake City.

 

[Bob Dylan]

ThanksEric, that's why I put in the disclaimer! The mind plays tricks when you get old! LOL

I was probably thinking about the North Coast Hiawatha which I never got to ride!

 

[JayPea]

Has splitting AND then reconnecting a train along a route ever happened before? Even pre-Amtrak?

Burlington Northern ran the Western Star and the Mainstreeter together with the Black Hawk between Chicago and Minneapolis, then split the two long distance trains from Minneapolis to Spokane. This site says that the Portland sections of the two trains ran together from Pasco to Portland. That seems odd -- I'd think that they'd meet up in Spokane.

I think that at some point a similar swap of Portland and Seattle sections of the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited happened, but I don't know if the two trains ever ran together between Minneapolis and Chicago.

The reason the Portland sections of both trains is because the configuration of rail lines in Spokane today is much different than it was back in the day of the Western Star and the Mainstreeter. Today there is only the one set of tracks that is shared by Amtrak, BNSF, and the UP through downtown Spokane. This is the NP set of tracks, and the Mainstreeter was run by the NP. Back in the day, though, the UP and Milwaukee, which had trackage rights through Spokane, ran on a different set of tracks, to the north of the current BNSF tracks, and the GN/SP&S ran on a third set of tracks, just to the north of the UP tracks. The iconic railroad bridge just to the west of Spokane, with its Y configuration, was not in existance then; it was completed in late 1972, about a year and a half after A-Day. The SP&S had trackage rights with the GN, for a mile or two, at least, and the Western Star ran on those tracks. They were on separate tracks through Spokane, and didn't join until Pasco. The SP&S and GN shared tracks westward for a mile or so from Spokane, crossed the Spokane River, and split at a junction with the GN going north (and west) to Seattle and the SP&S running south (and west) to Portland. All that changed in the early 1970's as, in preparation for the site of Spokane's World Fair, Expo '74, the three sets of tracks were consolidated and the GN/SP&S trackage and the UP/Milwaukee trackage were all dismantled, as were the GN station and the Union Pacific station. All that is left of any trace of these two railroads is the Clock Tower in Spokane's Riverfront Park, site of the World's Fair. It was part of the Great Northern Station. The former BN reconfigured its tracks west of Spokane, constructing the aforementioned Y bridge, in 1972. Today's EB runs on the NP tracks to Pasco, and the SP&S tracks from Pasco to Portland. A long, confusing, and complex answer to a simple question. :lol:

 

[Eugene S]

Back on subject of "Southwest Chief" So what if Amtrak and BNSF are trying to pull a scam (I am referencing the anti-donation clause in the New Mexico State constitution)?Does it really matter? If morals don't matter, then where are we as a nation?

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

The Raton route is dead, accept it and move on. Amtrak is much better off without it. I mean honestly who wants to see the southwest chief die over a route that the freight railroads say is dead..... If there's no freight there sure as h#### isn't enough population to support Amtrak.

 

[Eugene S]

Amtrak doesn't believe its dead, if they did they would have already moved to the transcon. They are showing they want to operate at a loss. That means it is past time to change entire board.

 

[Ryan]

I know it's early, and I'm about to head into a meeting, so this title may not last for long, but calling for the board to be replaced is the dumbest thing I've read all day.

Amtrak isn't supposed to make a profit. It's a public service. It should look to maximize revenues and minimize its costs to taxpayers, but at the end of the day, transporting people doesn't make money. Roads don't make money. Air travel doesn't make money (when you factor in all of the costs of providing it). Rail travel doesn't make money. Trying to insist that it does is pants-on-head-********. The folks along the Raton line deserve service and should keep it. The people along the transcon deserve it as well and should get it - just not at the expense of the others.

 

[yarrow]

Has splitting AND then reconnecting a train along a route ever happened before? Even pre-Amtrak?

Burlington Northern ran the Western Star and the Mainstreeter together with the Black Hawk between Chicago and Minneapolis, then split the two long distance trains from Minneapolis to Spokane. This site says that the Portland sections of the two trains ran together from Pasco to Portland. That seems odd -- I'd think that they'd meet up in Spokane.
I think that at some point a similar swap of Portland and Seattle sections of the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited happened, but I don't know if the two trains ever ran together between Minneapolis and Chicago.

The reason the Portland sections of both trains is because the configuration of rail lines in Spokane today is much different than it was back in the day of the Western Star and the Mainstreeter. Today there is only the one set of tracks that is shared by Amtrak, BNSF, and the UP through downtown Spokane. This is the NP set of tracks, and the Mainstreeter was run by the NP. Back in the day, though, the UP and Milwaukee, which had trackage rights through Spokane, ran on a different set of tracks, to the north of the current BNSF tracks, and the GN/SP&S ran on a third set of tracks, just to the north of the UP tracks. The iconic railroad bridge just to the west of Spokane, with its Y configuration, was not in existance then; it was completed in late 1972, about a year and a half after A-Day. The SP&S had trackage rights with the GN, for a mile or two, at least, and the Western Star ran on those tracks. They were on separate tracks through Spokane, and didn't join until Pasco. The SP&S and GN shared tracks westward for a mile or so from Spokane, crossed the Spokane River, and split at a junction with the GN going north (and west) to Seattle and the SP&S running south (and west) to Portland. All that changed in the early 1970's as, in preparation for the site of Spokane's World Fair, Expo '74, the three sets of tracks were consolidated and the GN/SP&S trackage and the UP/Milwaukee trackage were all dismantled, as were the GN station and the Union Pacific station. All that is left of any trace of these two railroads is the Clock Tower in Spokane's Riverfront Park, site of the World's Fair. It was part of the Great Northern Station. The former BN reconfigured its tracks west of Spokane, constructing the aforementioned Y bridge, in 1972. Today's EB runs on the NP tracks to Pasco, and the SP&S tracks from Pasco to Portland. A long, confusing, and complex answer to a simple question. :lol:

 

nice spokane rr history post, JayPea. i like riverfront park but would trade in a minute for gn and union stations and the old viaducts and trestles

 

[JayPea]

Yarrow, I feel the same way. I'd love to go back to the good old days of the GN and Union Stations and all those old bridges. I still remember as a 10 year old going with my friend and his dad from Spokane to Hinkle on the UP's City of Hinkle (or the Spokane; I've heard it referred to as both) and how cool it was crossing over the big bridge over the Spokane River and Latah Creek. Missed out on riding the GN/SP&S over the Spokane River on the Fort Wright bridge, however......and riding the SP&S through the tunnel under Greenwood Cemetery.

 

[Paulus]

Amtrak isn't supposed to make a profit. It's a public service. It should look to maximize revenues and minimize its costs to taxpayers, but at the end of the day, transporting people doesn't make money. Roads don't make money. Air travel doesn't make money (when you factor in all of the costs of providing it). Rail travel doesn't make money.

Amtrak is a for profit corporation and there are several railroads making a profit on their passenger divisions (some don't even have freight divisions).

Trying to insist that it does is pants-on-head-********. The folks along the Raton line deserve service and should keep it. The people along the transcon deserve it as well and should get it - just not at the expense of the others.

Why do the very few folks on the Raton pass deserve several hundred million dollars in additional subsidy for rail travel instead of simply Greyhound? Heck, you could probably build a small airport and give EAS service to replace each station for less money.