What would you add?

[Anderson]

Maybe my mind went in the wrong direction for this thread.

Perhaps so. The title of the thread is, after all, "What Would You Add?" (emphasis mine) with no restrictive caveats. Hence, my pipe dream post about restoring the abandoned Milwaukee Road route to the West through Taft MT and Avery ID. One of the tricks to productive brainstorming is the free flow of ideas - good or bad. Capture them all, then weed out the bad ones later. Just my US2¢ worth.

Actually there was one... "Let's be reasonable. We're not going to see $10B a year added. " Not a very strict restriction but I did put it there. ;-)

That's why I tried to constrain my set of improvements to what I figured you could manage with (A) $10bn over a decade; and (B) not blowing up the operating deficit too badly...

...and that is probably why my raft of improvements doesn't include a single new area being served that hasn't been seriously examined in the last decade (the NCH, Pioneer, Desert Wind, and Sunset East all got examined in the context of PRIIA; the Montreal extension of the Vermonter is being pursued, as is service to Roanoke). FWIW, the Desert Wind and Pioneer are (in a vacuum) not expected to add more than $10-25m/yr to the operating deficit each (I believe the Desert Wind was in the $10-15m range and the Pioneer in the $20-25m range). I don't recall the numbers for the NCH.

Honestly, if I could make most of what I suggested happen I'd also shoot for a section of the Cardinal(s) going to St. Louis/Kansas City...if only to get folks around Chicago on occasion.

 

[DryCreek]

The Caprock Chief - FTW to DEN

Hmmm, Caprock Chief - like Quanah Parker? That route (BNSF) would possibly pass though Decatur, Wichita Falls, Vernon, Quanah, Childress, Amarillo, and then either through Childress or Stratford as it heads NW to Denver where it could be timed to meet up with Trains 3/4.

Another idea (if passenger loading would support it) would be from Belton, through Lampasas, Coleman, Sweetwater, Snyder and into Lubbock.

Hopefully at Denver it will connect with 5/6 and not 3/4. It should connect with 3/4 perhaps at Trinidad? It will be quite difficult to time it right to meet all of them without some connections being rather long layovers.

Ooops, you're right. Still, wouldn't it be great to be able to go from SAS/Houston/D-FW to connect to 3/4, 5/6 and maybe even 7/8 without having to pass through CHI? Even if it meant creating a mini-hub somewhere like STL or KC.

 

[DryCreek]

Actually air travel is at par or possibly safer than Amtrak travel, depending on how one is counting.

Any way, I would really like to see a comparison, and it would be fine if it was just narrowed down to mainland US data.

Take a look at this Wikipedia page. It has a nice table comparing accident statistics for many modes with a short discussion about which statistics is more appropriate for what kind of analysis.

This article from Slate discusses the relative safety of air and rail travel in the US, and dwells quite a bit on the difficulty of actually doing and apples to apples comparison.

Thanks. I wasn't doubting you, but I really have to sit and think about the last train accident with fatalities here in the US. I know that there are commuter trains that have accidents, but they are not always covered outside of that particular region. I even remember some ferry accidents - wasn't the last one coming in from Staten Island and apparently the pilot or captain just forgot to stop and "piledrived" right into the pier? As far as air travel accidents, I guess 9-11 is the most memorable, with the Air Asia being the most recent airline crash with fatalities* (?).

As far as the point about a suicidal train engineer not being able to wreak as much havoc, well that just depends on his cargo and where the tracks run, doesn't it?

The routes I threw out were just what I'd like to see. I thought that we were just being asked if Amtrak had budget and only cared about what I'd like to see, then they would entertain adding a service I felt that I "needed" or "deserved". I didn't realize that this was actually supposed to be an exercise in passenger loading predictions, and that we should break down our want's into easy to read P/L categories for submission to congress.............

* humorous note - my wayward fingers initially misspelled "fatalities", and the spell checker offered "fatties" as a substitute. Thinking that would be most impolite, I drilled further into the list of suggestions......

 

[mtburb]

1. Restore Vermonter service to Montreal.

Restore the Niagara Rainbow and extend it further west to Chicago (not sure if something like this is feasible, as you would have to take it through Canada).
Restore the Broadway Limited.
Restore service between Detroit and Toledo, but with new stops in Wyandotte and Monroe.
Restore the International, while also adding additional trips to the three existing Michigan routes (as well as to the other Chicago-based corridor routes and the Missouri River Runner).
Restore the Floridan and extend it further south to Miami, but at Louisville (or Cincinnati, your opinion), split it into Chicago and Detroit sections like what's done at Albany on the LSL and Spokane on the EB.
Restore the Desert Wind, Pioneer and North Coast Hiawatha.
Restore service east of New Orleans on the Sunset Limited.
Restore the National Limited and extend it west to Los Angeles.
Restore the Silver Palm while also retaining the Palmetto.

 

[west point]

One item not covered by longer trains. Platform length. Even the NEC has short platforms look at NYP and Wilmington. Double and triple stops can murder on time performance. Granted some effort to isolate passengers at short platforms to the center of a train is important.

May be on and off passengers can be near the middle of a train at short platform stations but that will disturb passengers who are sleeping and what of ADA requirements ?

 

[Anderson]

One item not covered by longer trains. Platform length. Even the NEC has short platforms look at NYP and Wilmington. Double and triple stops can murder on time performance. Granted some effort to isolate passengers at short platforms to the center of a train is important.

May be on and off passengers can be near the middle of a train at short platform stations but that will disturb passengers who are sleeping and what of ADA requirements ?

The platforms at NYP are not "short" by most standards. "Short" would, to my understanding, imply something <10 cars; I know for a fact that you can get right up against 20 cars or so on the central platform at NYP (there's a GG-1 engineer who mentioned that though the platform was supposed to max out at 18 cars, he could fit 22 if he got right up against the signal...albeit with a car or two at each end not fitting on the platform for pax loading).

 

[jis]

Ooops, you're right. Still, wouldn't it be great to be able to go from SAS/Houston/D-FW to connect to 3/4, 5/6 and maybe even 7/8 without having to pass through CHI? Even if it meant creating a mini-hub somewhere like STL or KC.

Going all the way upto 7/8 would be a bit of a challenge.
Possible meeting points would either be Shelby (via Billings - Great Falls) or Sandpoint (via MRL from Billings via Bozeman/Livingston (Yellowstone Park) - Helena - Missoula (Kalispell)). I think the latter will be more desirable, maybe all the way up at Spokane. But that is a long long way from Denver!

 

[jis]

One item not covered by longer trains. Platform length. Even the NEC has short platforms look at NYP and Wilmington. Double and triple stops can murder on time performance. Granted some effort to isolate passengers at short platforms to the center of a train is important.

May be on and off passengers can be near the middle of a train at short platform stations but that will disturb passengers who are sleeping and what of ADA requirements ?

The platforms at NYP are not "short" by most standards. "Short" would, to my understanding, imply something <10 cars; I know for a fact that you can get right up against 20 cars or so on the central platform at NYP (there's a GG-1 engineer who mentioned that though the platform was supposed to max out at 18 cars, he could fit 22 if he got right up against the signal...albeit with a car or two at each end not fitting on the platform for pax loading).

I agree. NYP or Newark have no real platform length issues at all. Nor does Philadelphia. Wilmington and Baltimore do a bit, that there is no shortage of space to extend platforms at both if needed.

 

[Anderson]

One item not covered by longer trains. Platform length. Even the NEC has short platforms look at NYP and Wilmington. Double and triple stops can murder on time performance. Granted some effort to isolate passengers at short platforms to the center of a train is important.

May be on and off passengers can be near the middle of a train at short platform stations but that will disturb passengers who are sleeping and what of ADA requirements ?

The platforms at NYP are not "short" by most standards. "Short" would, to my understanding, imply something <10 cars; I know for a fact that you can get right up against 20 cars or so on the central platform at NYP (there's a GG-1 engineer who mentioned that though the platform was supposed to max out at 18 cars, he could fit 22 if he got right up against the signal...albeit with a car or two at each end not fitting on the platform for pax loading).

I agree. NYP or Newark have no real platform length issues at all. Nor does Philadelphia. Wilmington and Baltimore do a bit, that there is no shortage of space to extend platforms at both if needed.

Well, and a well-managed computer system could probably limit the chances of needing a double-spot at some of those stations. For example, you could allocate and/or adjust sleeper assignments in advance, and tinker with coach seating accordingly; you can also work with the arrangement of cars so that coaches or sleepers are in the middle of the train, with the other class of travel being on both ends...essentially what was done back in the 80s with the Silvers when they would be split. This would actually be needed if you had a significant FEC section being split off of a given train.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks. I wasn't doubting you, but I really have to sit and think about the last train accident with fatalities here in the US.

We've had two very recent ones that were discussed extensively here, one on Metro-North and the other on Metrolink. Most recent Amtrak would be the truck that ran into the side of the CZ in Nevada. 2 years ago?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Most recent Amtrak would be the truck that ran into the side of the CZ in Nevada. 2 years ago?

. 2011

 

[Ryan]

Wow. Didn't think it was that long ago.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Wow. Didn't think it was that long ago.

. I only remember because I was planning my 1st LD trip that year and the CZ was one of the trains I was taking.

 

[Palmetto]

To Jis: the connection town you're thinking of would be Shelby, MT, not Cutbank. And for those of us who've been there, there isn't much, is there? I agree with you: at Billings, pick up the MRL and go on up thru Missoula and on to Spokane. I believe there's a proposal for that, as well.

 

[jis]

Yup Shelby, not Cut Bank. One time long back on the EB we had been held back at Cut Bank in the winter while they worked on clearing the track up in Marias Pass after a massive snowstorm. As I recall there was only one bar that we could go to while waiting for track to be cleared. Not much there.

 

[jis]

Thanks. I wasn't doubting you, but I really have to sit and think about the last train accident with fatalities here in the US.

We've had two very recent ones that were discussed extensively here, one on Metro-North and the other on Metrolink. Most recent Amtrak would be the truck that ran into the side of the CZ in Nevada. 2 years ago?

There were actually two on Metro North - The derailment at Spuyten Duyvil and grade crossing at Valhalla.

 

[FriskyFL]

All kidding aside, I'll be happy if we can just hold on to the skeletal system that we have today.

 

[Ryan]

Yep.

I was thinking "this year" when I wrote "very recent" (and almost wrote it, but couldn't remember if Calhalla was this year or late last year).

 

[Notelvis]

5. One additional East-West extension: Establish some service to Asheville, NC by extending the NC State's trains. Another pipe dream.

THIS is the one I would vote for.

Actually, I would like to see a train operating from Asheville to Columbia, SC via Hickory, Salisbury, and Charlotte...... the direct routing via Saluda Mountain having been out-of-service for nearly 15 years and the Asheville-Hendersonville remnant was just spun off as a shortline in 2014.

In an ideal world, this train would depart Asheville around 4pm, Charlotte around 9pm, and carry a through sleeper to Florida via the 'Silver Star'. Return to Asheville would depart Charlotte around 7am.

That through sleeper would make our semi-annual visits to see the mother-in-law in Orlando far more tolerable!

 

[afigg]

Thanks. I wasn't doubting you, but I really have to sit and think about the last train accident with fatalities here in the US.

We've had two very recent ones that were discussed extensively here, one on Metro-North and the other on Metrolink. Most recent Amtrak would be the truck that ran into the side of the CZ in Nevada. 2 years ago?

If this thread is going to get sidetracked into passenger rail safety stats - for the passengers - there have been at least 2 incidents that I recall being discussed here where the passenger opened the door at night and fell out of the train With fatal results. Not a train collision, but an accident that did result in the death of a passenger. But this is getting way, way off-topic from posts about proposed expansions of Amtrak and intercity passenger rail.

 

[Chey]

Hmmm, Caprock Chief - like Quanah Parker? That route (BNSF) would possibly pass though Decatur, Wichita Falls, Vernon, Quanah, Childress, Amarillo, and then either through Childress or Stratford as it heads NW to Denver where it could be timed to meet up with Trains 3/4.

Another idea (if passenger loading would support it) would be from Belton, through Lampasas, Coleman, Sweetwater, Snyder and into Lubbock.

Sorry to have taken so long to get back to this discussion. I had to look up this Quanah Zephyr route - I like it. I have heard that BNSF is double-tracking from Wichita Falls to Amarillo... I try not to let things like that give me hope but it's hard.

The proposed route of the Caprock Chief was (remember that this was over 10 years ago so if it were re-proposed I don't know if it would be the same): FTW - Weatherford - Eastland - Abilene (TX) - Sweetwater - Lubbock - Plainview - Amarillo - Boise City - La Junta (connection to SWC) - Pueblo - Colorado Springs - Littleton - DEN. I would think it would have made the Pueblo and Colorado Springs folks happier than they are now.

 

[jis]

Yeah, the Pueblo folks are hoping to get the SWC rerouted via La Junta - Pueblo - Trinidad one of these days!

 

[Ryan]

Pueblo?

 

[Train Rider]

At the national level, I would add a Chicago to Florida route because the populations at both ends, as well as in between, are too big not to have a direct route. I would also add a second train between NYC and CHI because it connects the eastern and western parts of the system.

These two additions would put butts in seats and amplify use of the existing system over a sizeable geographic area.

 

[Train Rider]

At the national level, I would add a Chicago to Florida route because the populations at both ends, as well as in between, are too big not to have a direct route. I would also add a second train between NYC and CHI because it connects the eastern and western parts of the system.

These two additions would put butts in seats and amplify use of the existing system over a sizeable geographic area.