When Vermonter to Montreal?

[Palmland]

Every little step helps. I'd love to see an overnight trip though.

Honestly, I think this would make a bit more sense on the Adirondack routing than on the Vermonter routing (given the sheer amount of endpoint travel on this route)..........

I think this is a good idea. The Vermonter is a scenic ride that meanders through the countryside and serves some larger communities in New England including some college towns. Seems like it would be better to keep this a daytime train.

The Adirondack, however has a faster route and, as mentioned, would serve the very large end points very effectively with an overnight schedule. Yes we'd lose the scenic ride along Lake Champlain but if Amtrak is about effective transportation and not a scenic ride, it would make sense to make this change. Best of all, this change could happen tomorrow if equipment were available. Easy to figure the schedule: just add 12 hours to the current one- Lv NYP 8:11PM, arrive Montreal 7:11am. Return at 10:20 pm and arrive NYP at 8:50am.

It would provide early morning departure from Saratoga Springs and Schenectedy for those headed to the city and late evening return. But since the train is supported by NY state, Sen. Schumer would have to be convinced it was a good thing. The small upstate communities would be served late at night ( which is also true for upstate VT if the Vermonter became overnight). I well remember seeing a line of handsome maroon sleepers sitting at GCT one evening ready for passengers to board the Montreal Ltd. And since the Adirondack now uses NYP rather than GCT, no reason it couldn't begin its trip in Washington.

 

[west point]

An overnight Montrealer might have advantage of wintertime skiers going to the various resorts. Know this poster did it once and had a delayed stop due to large contingent unloading. Maybe an extra car(S) on Fridays northbound and southbound on Sunday nights ?

 

[afigg]

Would Vermont continue to fund the Vermonter if it stopped at all the stations in that state in the middle of the night? I doubt it. Of course there could be two trains on the route.

Same goes for CT and MA which contribute to the Vermonter operating subsidy. And as others have posted, applies to NY state for the Adirondack. So long as there is only 1 train or even 2 trains over the route, why would any state pay for a train that runs through it in the wee hours of the night? Vermont wants to extend the Vermonter to Montreal in part so it can get tourists and visitors from Montreal to visit VT. A Vermonter/Montrealer that departs Montreal in the evening doesn't do much for that.

 

[neroden]

Every little step helps. I'd love to see an overnight trip though.

Honestly, I think this would make a bit more sense on the Adirondack routing than on the Vermonter routing

Absolutely. Worth noting:

-- St. Lambert is already being removed with the "preclearance"

-- Rouses Point exists almost entirely for customs inspection and will probably be removed. (Averaging 0.8 passengers on and 0.8 passengers off each train.)

-- when the Ethan Allen Express reaches Burlington, ridership at Port Kent will collapse

-- there will be daytime trains from Saratoga Springs southward

However, looking at it harder, I think it doesn't work. And this is why.

Doing customs at Montreal should cut an hour out of the schedule southbound and about an hour forty minutes northbound.

The current southbound run is 10 hours 30 minutes; it would be down to 9 hours 30 minutes.

The current northbound run is just short of 11 hours; it would be down to 9 hours 30 minutes.

This is too short for an overnight train, even with a lot of end-to-end traffic. It becomes impossible to serve

*any* of the intermediate points outside the wee hours. I did my best to design a schedule:

Southbound: A 7 AM arrival at Montreal (which would be 5 AM at Plattsburgh) would mean a 9:30 PM departure from NYC. I suppose you could depart even later from NYC, but urrgh.

Northbound: Similarly, a 7 AM arrival at NY would mean 11:30 PM at Plattsburgh and 9:30 PM at Montreal.

This is just about tolerable, I suppose, but any speed improvements anywhere and it starts to become untenable. Also, you're going through Albany at 4 AM southbound and midnight northbound -- not great for connections to Empire Service West.

Let's get the Adirondack into Montreal, get the Ethan Allen Express to Burlington (and Essex Junction, perhaps) and close St. Lambert (to Amtrak, AMT will still run), CBSC Lacolle, Rouse's Point, and Port Kent; then see what happens with a *faster* daytime run.

 

[jis]

But since the train is supported by NY state, Sen. Schumer would have to be convinced it was a good thing.

It isn't that easy. Impressing Schumer is useful if it is federal funds one is looking for. Last time I looked Schumer had very little control over what the NY State legislature does. Upstate new York funding is part of a complex upstate downstate deal that is unlikely to be impacted solely by convincing Schumer. And what would the argument be for Schumer or the NY Legislature and the Governor? Fund this great train to Montreal that will skip most of your state and treat it as a fly over country? Such arguments are easier to make when there is plentiful service and one is trying to add another one. Even then on the NEC trying to run a train treating the intermediate stops as flyover country has never worked, and we expect it will on a route that can barely sustain one train? And that too with a train that provides no other connectivity within the state that you expect to fund it? Good luck!

Bottom line is that it has to bring clearly identifiable value to New York State. An overnight flyover country train between New York and Montreal adds very little that is not achievable by the myriads of flights that exist between New York's several airports and Montreal. Now if we could do new York to Montreal in three hours or less, that would be something.

There is similar issue with trying to run a Vermonter service to Montreal overnight across Vermont. One needs o figure out a way of designating either of those two as part of national service and fund it federally.

 

[Anderson]

Nathanael,
You're forgetting that speed improvements do not have to improve runtime. While adding 3-4 hours is generally a bad idea, adding 30-60 minutes to the schedule to move times at key stations to sane hours has a long history. SB, slapping a large pad in at ALB should basically eliminate the chance of getting stuck out-of-slot on MNRR, even if something gets mildly frakked up either in MTR, at the border, or on the D&H. NB, it's simply down to runtime questions.

Of note, as I understand it NY could use an additional SB train in the morning ALB-NYP. NB, on the other hand, running one of the late trains through could help its performance (and of course, remember that equipment sets can be shuffled as needed).

 

[jis]

I would be astounded if an overnight train arriving at 7am could be turned around in time for a 9:30am-ish departure back to New York, after removing a Sleeper, assuming of course that it actually makes it in on time.

 

[Anderson]

I would be astounded if an overnight train arriving at 7am could be turned around in time for a 9:30am-ish departure back to New York, after removing a Sleeper, assuming of course that it actually makes it in on time.

The departure is 10:20 AM right now, and that could easily be pushed back closer to 11:00 AM, depending on the distribution of time savings at the border. "Splitting the baby" on the 90-minute border hold would allow that. I'd think that 3:20-4:00 should be enough for a "soft turn" (e.g. other than the sleeper, it's on par with turning Regionals around; it's also notably not that much less than the Shoreliner gets at NPN; additionally, there's not even a food restocking to do).

 

[Palmetto]

Would Vermont continue to fund the Vermonter if it stopped at all the stations in that state in the middle of the night? I doubt it. Of course there could be two trains on the route.

Actually, the train became transport for skiers going to Vermont in the winter season.

An overnight Montrealer might have advantage of wintertime skiers going to the various resorts. Know this poster did it once and had a delayed stop due to large contingent unloading. Maybe an extra car(S) on Fridays northbound and southbound on Sunday nights ?

As I said. The lounge car was a hopping place on Fridays. Had a piano in it at some point, as well.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

It is common for people to forget that the Adirondack is a NYS funded train, any service changes are subject to their approval.

Would Vermont continue to fund the Vermonter if it stopped at all the stations in that state in the middle of the night? I doubt it. Of course there could be two trains on the route.

Would Canada chip in? They'd get a few more American visitors from NYC/DC (and Canadian residents can travel overnight to NYC/DC).

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Looks like the Bill has passed:

http://www.theprovince.com/news/national/bill+passed+congress+likely+help+speed+canadians+across/12508813/story.html

And here's a link that includes the facility that was proposed in 2013 for Gare Centrale in Montreal.

http://www.thetbwg.org/meetings/201304/presentations/D1P7a.ppt

 

[afigg]

As just posted, the Senate passed the preclearance bill Saturday morning as part the typical last minute flurry of passing legislation as the Congressional session ends. Press release from Senator Leahy (D-VT): Leahy 'Preclearance' Bill To Ease Vt.-Canada Rail & Air Travel Clears Congress Saturday Morning. Obama will presumably sign the bill quickly. Now it is up to the Canadian parliament to pass their own legislation, but it is expected to pass easily.

Absolutely. Worth noting:
-- Rouses Point exists almost entirely for customs inspection and will probably be removed. (Averaging 0.8 passengers on and 0.8 passengers off each train.)
-- when the Ethan Allen Express reaches Burlington, ridership at Port Kent will collapse

However, looking at it harder, I think it doesn't work. And this is why.
Doing customs at Montreal should cut an hour out of the schedule southbound and about an hour forty minutes northbound.
The current southbound run is 10 hours 30 minutes; it would be down to 9 hours 30 minutes.
The current northbound run is just short of 11 hours; it would be down to 9 hours 30 minutes.

Rouses Point could become a flag stop but the state of NY may balk at that.
Port Kent had 565 passengers total in FY2016. May be difficult to detect a ridership "collapse". The Ethan Allen extension to Burlington is now projected for 2020, so it will be 4 years or more before direct Burlington service will an effect.

The Adirondack had scheduled trip times faster than 9 hours and 30 minutes back in the 1980s. Looking at a 1988 schedule, roughly 9:15 from Grand Central. The key question is whether the Canadian Government or the Providence of Quebec are willing to fund track and switch improvements and if so, how much? The prospect of 3 daily trains to the US with direct service to NYC, Philly, DC, and eventually Boston as opposed to just 1 daily Adirondack helps to change the political dynamics on the Canadian side. As I recall from the earlier studies w/o digging them up, there are low hanging fruit improvements north of the border on the order of 10s of millions that would make a difference in travel times.

 

[jis]

In 1950 there were six trains between New York and Montreal as far as I can tell. Three were via Plattsburgh (D&H), two of which were overnight - one express, one stopping - to Gare Windsor. The express died first. Only the daytime one survived. There were two via Burlington (Rutland) - one daytime, one overnight, both stopping everywhere and to Gare Centrale and one via Springfield (New Haven) overnight to Gare Central.

As we know, at the end of the day only one survived because of NY State funding mainly justified in the state for serving the otherwise under served Adirondack region, with Montreal as an also ran, even though Montreal provides a lot into the farebox. Possibly that is the reason it was not cut back to be just an NY State train.

 

[neroden]

As just posted, the Senate passed the preclearance bill Saturday morning as part the typical last minute flurry of passing legislation as the Congressional session ends. Press release from Senator Leahy (D-VT): Leahy 'Preclearance' Bill To Ease Vt.-Canada Rail & Air Travel Clears Congress Saturday Morning. Obama will presumably sign the bill quickly. Now it is up to the Canadian parliament to pass their own legislation, but it is expected to pass easily.

Absolutely. Worth noting:

-- Rouses Point exists almost entirely for customs inspection and will probably be removed. (Averaging 0.8 passengers on and 0.8 passengers off each train.)

-- when the Ethan Allen Express reaches Burlington, ridership at Port Kent will collapse

However, looking at it harder, I think it doesn't work. And this is why.

Doing customs at Montreal should cut an hour out of the schedule southbound and about an hour forty minutes northbound.

The current southbound run is 10 hours 30 minutes; it would be down to 9 hours 30 minutes.

The current northbound run is just short of 11 hours; it would be down to 9 hours 30 minutes.

Rouses Point could become a flag stop but the state of NY may balk at that.

Port Kent had 565 passengers total in FY2016. May be difficult to detect a ridership "collapse". The Ethan Allen extension to Burlington is now projected for 2020, so it will be 4 years or more before direct Burlington service will an effect.

Heh, yeah, it might be hard to spot a collapse in riderhsip at Port Kent, but then again, it might go down under 100 passengers per year.

Rouses Point only has 1208 passengers per year as of 2015 (and maxxed out at 1498 in 2011), arrivals + departures. Admittedly that's about half the town's population. It's only 25 miles from Plattsburgh, however. With the customs delay removed, making it a flagstop makes a lot of sense.

Hopefully ridership will increase. If it doesn't, it's hard to justify a station with that level of ridership, especially when it's just for Amtrak (it costs nothing to share a station with commuter trains). People would drive to Plattsburgh to go south. More damningly, it's ony 45 miles to Montreal by car, and an 1 hour 30 minutes by train (*not* including the customs delays) so very few will use Rouse's Point to go north (about 30% of current ridership).

-----

Out of curiosity I went through the 2015 data and figured out which stations have lower ridership than Rouses Point. Not counting stations with no service:

-- Connersville, IN (Cardinal, less than daily)

-- Lexington Barbecue Festival, NC (special events only)

-- Lordsburg, NM (Sunset Limited, less than daily)

-- Montgomery, WV (Cardinal, less than daily)

-- NY State Fair, NY (special events only, did badly in 2015)

-- North Philadelphia, PA (very few Amtrak trains stop, most passengers would take SEPTA)

-- Port Kent (seasonal, apparently no service in 2015?)

-- Sanderson, TX (Sunset Limited, less than daily)

-- S Portsmouth, KY (Cardinal, less than daily)

-- Thurmond, WV (Cardinal, less than daily)

Tied for number of riders:

-- Windsor - Mt Ascutney, VT (1208)

Slightly more:

-- Wishram, WA (1300)

Bluntly, it's pretty clear Rouses Point station was only opened in the first place because of customs inspections. The only stations with lower passenger counts are three-a-week (and much further from the next station along the line), special events only, seasonal, and North Philadelphia. I guess it will probably stay open as a flagstop if the locals want it to, as it costs very little time to stop, most of the time.