Why is Amtrak coach more expensive than flying?

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The thing is, you have to factor in the price of getting to and from the airport.Last October, my wife and I flew from JFK to SFO. It cost me $200 to get to and from the airports! Amtrak goes from downtown to downtown, so there's little or no extra cost involved.
BART from downtown San Francisco to SFO is $5.35, Airtrain and subway from JFK to downtown New York is $7. The fact that an Amtrak customer would even consider taking a taxi when such alternatives exists shows how far Amtrak is from being a budget option.
What you are looking at here is people to whom normal everyday public transport is invisible. They would not think about BART on the SFO end or the Airtrain/subway on the JFK end. I also have no idea where the $200 number came from unless it is $160 on the New York end, because downtown San Francisco to SFO is around $40 with tip.
 
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A number of people have been extolling the more pleasant and relaxing environment of train travel. While I agree that train travel is indeed more enjoyable, the government does not subsidize Amtrak to run some sort of land cruise business. The government subsidizes Amtrak to provide passenger transportation. When fares are so high that people have to treat Amtrak as an entertainment provider to justify them, it suggests that Amtrak is failing at its primary purpose of providing passenger transportation for the general public. Amtrak should either increase the number of coaches per train (using commuter-style equipment if necessary) until it can offer coach fares competitive with budget airlines and Greyhound/Megabus, or give up its federal subsidy and become like GrandLuxe.
Congress certainly should give Amtrak money to buy more equipment to make more low bucket seats available.

I don't think Amtrak needs to offer $1 fares, however.

I suspect that Amtrak's low bucket fares for coach seats are pretty competitive with Greyhound, but when I try to ask Greyhound's website what it would cost me to get from Boston to Chicago next month, it says

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BART from downtown San Francisco to SFO is $5.35, Airtrain and subway from JFK to downtown New York is $7. The fact that an Amtrak customer would even consider taking a taxi when such alternatives exists shows how far Amtrak is from being a budget option.
There's an incredible diversity of Amtrak passengers. I've paid for a roomette on the Lake Shore Limited, and I take a taxi less than once a year; I generally prefer to take the subway or perhaps a local bus. If you're going to jump to conclusions like that, I don't see why I wouldn't be proof that taxis are insanely expensive and sleepers are a budget option.
 
Congress certainly should give Amtrak money to buy more equipment to make more low bucket seats available.
I don't think Amtrak needs to offer $1 fares, however.

I suspect that Amtrak's low bucket fares for coach seats are pretty competitive with Greyhound, but when I try to ask Greyhound's website what it would cost me to get from Boston to Chicago next month, it says
Congress just gave Amtrak a bunch of money. What does Amtrak plan to do with all of the extra money they'll receive.
 
Congress certainly should give Amtrak money to buy more equipment to make more low bucket seats available.
I don't think Amtrak needs to offer $1 fares, however.

I suspect that Amtrak's low bucket fares for coach seats are pretty competitive with Greyhound, but when I try to ask Greyhound's website what it would cost me to get from Boston to Chicago next month, it says
Congress just gave Amtrak a bunch of money. What does Amtrak plan to do with all of the extra money they'll receive.
:blink: Where is all this extra money that Amtrak supposedly received?

In this year's appropriation, Congress just barely gave Amtrak enough money to maintain status quo (the original budget as submitted by President Bush would have resulted in massive cuts).

But maybe you know something I don't!

(Seriously, if this is what the general uninformed public thinks of when they see the news of Amtrak's appropriation, then we have some serious PR work to do...)
 
Congress certainly should give Amtrak money to buy more equipment to make more low bucket seats available.
I don't think Amtrak needs to offer $1 fares, however.

I suspect that Amtrak's low bucket fares for coach seats are pretty competitive with Greyhound, but when I try to ask Greyhound's website what it would cost me to get from Boston to Chicago next month, it says
Congress just gave Amtrak a bunch of money. What does Amtrak plan to do with all of the extra money they'll receive.
:blink: Where is all this extra money that Amtrak supposedly received?

In this year's appropriation, Congress just barely gave Amtrak enough money to maintain status quo (the original budget as submitted by President Bush would have resulted in massive cuts).

But maybe you know something I don't!

(Seriously, if this is what the general uninformed public thinks of when they see the news of Amtrak's appropriation, then we have some serious PR work to do...)
Of course, the measure of what Amtrak needs in funding is what Amtrak says it needs. Do they really need that much? Who knows.

Amtrak has been around for 37 years. In all that time I think they have figured out how the game is played. Amtrak actually needs X Federal dollars. So they ask for X+Y and claim that is absolutely essential. Then after lots of haggling, Congress and the President cut the X+Y back to X. Amtrak reluctantly accepts X and says they will do the best they can with it. Seems to work.

Just because Amtrak says they need a certain amount of funding, does not make it a fact. They are, after all, a vested interest.
 
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Congress certainly should give Amtrak money to buy more equipment to make more low bucket seats available.
I don't think Amtrak needs to offer $1 fares, however.

I suspect that Amtrak's low bucket fares for coach seats are pretty competitive with Greyhound, but when I try to ask Greyhound's website what it would cost me to get from Boston to Chicago next month, it says
Congress just gave Amtrak a bunch of money. What does Amtrak plan to do with all of the extra money they'll receive.
:blink: Where is all this extra money that Amtrak supposedly received?

In this year's appropriation, Congress just barely gave Amtrak enough money to maintain status quo (the original budget as submitted by President Bush would have resulted in massive cuts).

But maybe you know something I don't!

(Seriously, if this is what the general uninformed public thinks of when they see the news of Amtrak's appropriation, then we have some serious PR work to do...)
Of course, the measure of what Amtrak needs in funding is what Amtrak says it needs. Do they really need that much? Who knows.

Amtrak has been around for 37 years. In all that time I think they have figured out how the game is played. Amtrak actually needs X Federal dollars. So they ask for X+Y and claim that is absolutely essential. Then after lots of haggling, Congress and the President cut the X+Y back to X. Amtrak reluctantly accepts X and says they will do the best they can with it. Seems to work.

Just because Amtrak says they need a certain amount of funding, does not make it a fact. They are, after all, a vested interest.
I think that's how every federal agency works. Maybe it's even how budgeting in the private sector works. (I don't know--I've never worked at a high-enough level in a big-enough company where big budgeting processes take place.)

However, one thing that also happens in government agencies (and maybe private companies, too)--if too much money gets budgeted and it's not spent, the next year will come around and the big cheese will determine that the division or agency doesn't need as much money the next year, since they weren't able to use it all the previous year. Since no agency or division wants that to happen, they find ways to spend the money, even if it's not really necessary. I'm sure that happens at Amtrak.

What's the solution to this problem? The libertarian in me says that it should be to cut all unnecessary government spending, since government bureaucracy is inherently inefficient. Of course, that conflicts with my desire for Amtrak to be fully supported and funded (so I guess I'm only a weak libertarian...), since privatization won't work (or at least would result in the demise of Amtrak as we know it). What are alternate solutions?
 
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The thing is, you have to factor in the price of getting to and from the airport.Last October, my wife and I flew from JFK to SFO. It cost me $200 to get to and from the airports! Amtrak goes from downtown to downtown, so there's little or no extra cost involved.
BART from downtown San Francisco to SFO is $5.35, Airtrain and subway from JFK to downtown New York is $7. The fact that an Amtrak customer would even consider taking a taxi when such alternatives exists shows how far Amtrak is from being a budget option.
What you are looking at here is people to whom normal everyday public transport is invisible. They would not think about BART on the SFO end or the Airtrain/subway on the JFK end. I also have no idea where the $200 number came from unless it is $160 on the New York end, because downtown San Francisco to SFO is around $40 with tip.
They said $200 to and from the airports, so that sounds like four trips. I've never taken a taxi in either city, but that could approach $200 I guess.
 
I suspect that Amtrak's low bucket fares for coach seats are pretty competitive with Greyhound, but when I try to ask Greyhound's website what it would cost me to get from Boston to Chicago next month, it says: "An Error Occurred"
It seems to be working better today. For travel on July 20th, Greyhound quotes $164 (refundable) or $123 (non-refundable), for a 22hr trip.

Amtrak quotes $126 (refundable) or $113 (AAA - refundable) for a 22hr trip.

The only advantage of the Bus is more choice in the time of your departure and arrival.

Sounds pretty "competitive" to me!
 
I love train riding, dude. I do take rail cruises, because I love riding trains. I also use Amtrak as transportation.
I've done that too, a few times. In particular between my home in Northern California and occasional business in Southern California, requiring my physical presence but not for very long.

Using the San Joaquin Trains and their connecting Busses, I can leave home in the Morning and arrive in L.A. by mid-afternoon to attend to business. Then after a free evening in town, I can catch the 1:25 AM Bus out of Union Station for the 4:55 AM Train out of Bakersfield, and be home before noon the next morning.

I wouldn't wish to try for such a quick turn-around by driving! (425 miles each way...)
 
Congress certainly should give Amtrak money to buy more equipment to make more low bucket seats available.
I don't think Amtrak needs to offer $1 fares, however.

I suspect that Amtrak's low bucket fares for coach seats are pretty competitive with Greyhound, but when I try to ask Greyhound's website what it would cost me to get from Boston to Chicago next month, it says
Congress just gave Amtrak a bunch of money. What does Amtrak plan to do with all of the extra money they'll receive.
:blink: Where is all this extra money that Amtrak supposedly received?

In this year's appropriation, Congress just barely gave Amtrak enough money to maintain status quo (the original budget as submitted by President Bush would have resulted in massive cuts).

But maybe you know something I don't!

(Seriously, if this is what the general uninformed public thinks of when they see the news of Amtrak's appropriation, then we have some serious PR work to do...)
Well, given the way Amtrak simply decided to pay replace concrete tiles in the NE corridor that broke 40 year too early (rather than having the company that built them replace them as was guaranteed), the labor contract Amtrak is in the process of signing, that Amtrak is scheduled to receive .5 billion dollars more from the federal government than they have received in past years, and that ridership is at an all time high, I'd say that Amtrak, with better management, should be swimming in money.
 
The thing is, you have to factor in the price of getting to and from the airport.Last October, my wife and I flew from JFK to SFO. It cost me $200 to get to and from the airports! Amtrak goes from downtown to downtown, so there's little or no extra cost involved.
BART from downtown San Francisco to SFO is $5.35, Airtrain and subway from JFK to downtown New York is $7. The fact that an Amtrak customer would even consider taking a taxi when such alternatives exists shows how far Amtrak is from being a budget option.
What you are looking at here is people to whom normal everyday public transport is invisible. They would not think about BART on the SFO end or the Airtrain/subway on the JFK end. I also have no idea where the $200 number came from unless it is $160 on the New York end, because downtown San Francisco to SFO is around $40 with tip.
Here's how the $200 breaks down:from my apartment in Brooklyn to JFK using a car service $30. At the other end, SFO to Petaluma, the only option is the Airport bus. $30 per person, one-way. Coming back, that's $60 to SFo, and at JFK, we have to take a yellow cab, which is metered. That's another $50. Add it up, that's $200. There's no cheaper way.
 
..just in case anyone doubts the taxi fare in a large city... those outside the Atlanta Amtrak wanted to charge me $50 to take me about 12 miles... 90% interstate- not during rush hours. I would have rather walked it than paid that $50 for about a 20 minute or less ride (the way they drive, anyway :lol: ).
 
Well, given the way Amtrak simply decided to pay replace concrete tiles in the NE corridor that broke 40 year too early (rather than having the company that built them replace them as was guaranteed),
The situation here is not near as simple as you make it sound.
the labor contract Amtrak is in the process of signing, that Amtrak is scheduled to receive .5 billion dollars more from the federal government than they have received in past years, and that ridership is at an all time high, I'd say that Amtrak, with better management, should be swimming in money.
not very likely.
 
I believe that the comparison of airline fares to train fares is illconcieved - Amtrak's major competition and an industry they should be studying is that of cruising. The train is a form of vacation to many, many people and could be for many more with a little better promotion in that area - a cruise offers a way to see places you want to see while always having a place to eat and sleep. Many people want to see more of the US and Canada or even Mexico for that matter and are willing to pay for first-class service which Amtrak does not offer. I just completed traveling cross country first class by train to board a cruiseship for a week and then returned home by first class train and the difference is staggaring while the cost is similar on a per diem basis. First class on a train means you have a bed, mediocore food and nothing else - you can't even get preferential treatment when it comes to a seat in the observation car. The cruise industry has developed many ways to add revenue i.e. photos, gambling, bingo, excursions at different stops, etc., etc.; Amtrak needs to do the same or raise prices. Given some of the numbers I have seen on this site it looks as though first class passengers are the most profitable so why not first class only trains? The Coast Starlight with the first class only lounge car with movie theater and couples dining is close but they need to upgrade the rooms slightly.

First class only trains once or twice a month with planned itineraries ( like cruises ) would succeed. How about a train on which you stay and eat that stops for a day at Niagara Falls, departs that night for 2 days in NYC ( play tickets included ) or the Grand Canyon............... Where do I sign up!!
 
I believe that the comparison of airline fares to train fares is illconcieved - Amtrak's major competition and an industry they should be studying is that of cruising. The train is a form of vacation to many, many people and could be for many more with a little better promotion in that area - a cruise offers a way to see places you want to see while always having a place to eat and sleep. Many people want to see more of the US and Canada or even Mexico for that matter and are willing to pay for first-class service which Amtrak does not offer. I just completed traveling cross country first class by train to board a cruiseship for a week and then returned home by first class train and the difference is staggaring while the cost is similar on a per diem basis. First class on a train means you have a bed, mediocore food and nothing else - you can't even get preferential treatment when it comes to a seat in the observation car. The cruise industry has developed many ways to add revenue i.e. photos, gambling, bingo, excursions at different stops, etc., etc.; Amtrak needs to do the same or raise prices. Given some of the numbers I have seen on this site it looks as though first class passengers are the most profitable so why not first class only trains? The Coast Starlight with the first class only lounge car with movie theater and couples dining is close but they need to upgrade the rooms slightly. First class only trains once or twice a month with planned itineraries ( like cruises ) would succeed. How about a train on which you stay and eat that stops for a day at Niagara Falls, departs that night for 2 days in NYC ( play tickets included ) or the Grand Canyon............... Where do I sign up!!
Yes, there is. It's GrandLuxe Rail Journeys
 
Here's how the $200 breaks down:from my apartment in Brooklyn to JFK using a car service $30. At the other end, SFO to Petaluma, the only option is the Airport bus. $30 per person, one-way. Coming back, that's $60 to SFo, and at JFK, we have to take a yellow cab, which is metered. That's another $50. Add it up, that's $200. There's no cheaper way.
There is certainly a cheaper way than car services/taxis on the JFK end, as was already noted. In fact, if you take a bus from JFK to the subway instead of taking the Airtrain, the JFK end is only $2 per person. As for the SFO end, Amtrak would not get you to downtown Petaluma either, so to be fair you should add the cost of travel from Petaluma to an Amtrak station when comparing air vs rail fare. At any rate, you can take BART for $5.35 (or a samtrans bus for $4) from SFO to downtown San Francisco, and then change to a Golden Gate Transit bus for $7.60 to Petaluma. The total roundtrip cost per person, including both the JFK and SFO ends, would be only about $27.

First class only trains once or twice a month with planned itineraries ( like cruises ) would succeed. How about a train on which you stay and eat that stops for a day at Niagara Falls, departs that night for 2 days in NYC ( play tickets included ) or the Grand Canyon............... Where do I sign up!!
You can sign up for such journeys at http://www.americanorientexpress.com/ . However, it would be absolutely ridiculous for the federal government to subsidize cruises for rich people, while general public transport in the US continues to languish.

While occasionally on particular days or routes Amtrak is of comparable cost to flying, this is not generally the case in my experience. For long routes it is rarely competitive with budget airlines (LAX-CHI is $143 on Amtrak booked in advance, while Frontier makes the same trip for $123). Much worse, however, are corridor routes, where Amtrak charges much higher fares than bus operators on the same route ($59 for NYP-BOS booked in advance, which is $15 walkup on a Chinatown bus and $1 in advance on Megabus). High Amtrak pricing on such routes seems to be an attempt to price people off trains and reduce crowding, but since the purpose of Amtrak is to provide transportation rather than to make money, it should be running as many trains with as much space as possible, with fares low enough to fill them.
 
Here's how the $200 breaks down:from my apartment in Brooklyn to JFK using a car service $30. At the other end, SFO to Petaluma, the only option is the Airport bus. $30 per person, one-way. Coming back, that's $60 to SFo, and at JFK, we have to take a yellow cab, which is metered. That's another $50. Add it up, that's $200. There's no cheaper way.
There is certainly a cheaper way than car services/taxis on the JFK end, as was already noted. In fact, if you take a bus from JFK to the subway instead of taking the Airtrain, the JFK end is only $2 per person. As for the SFO end, Amtrak would not get you to downtown Petaluma either, so to be fair you should add the cost of travel from Petaluma to an Amtrak station when comparing air vs rail fare. At any rate, you can take BART for $5.35 (or a samtrans bus for $4) from SFO to downtown San Francisco, and then change to a Golden Gate Transit bus for $7.60 to Petaluma. The total roundtrip cost per person, including both the JFK and SFO ends, would be only about $27.

First class only trains once or twice a month with planned itineraries ( like cruises ) would succeed. How about a train on which you stay and eat that stops for a day at Niagara Falls, departs that night for 2 days in NYC ( play tickets included ) or the Grand Canyon............... Where do I sign up!!
You can sign up for such journeys at http://www.americanorientexpress.com/ . However, it would be absolutely ridiculous for the federal government to subsidize cruises for rich people, while general public transport in the US continues to languish.

While occasionally on particular days or routes Amtrak is of comparable cost to flying, this is not generally the case in my experience. For long routes it is rarely competitive with budget airlines (LAX-CHI is $143 on Amtrak booked in advance, while Frontier makes the same trip for $123). Much worse, however, are corridor routes, where Amtrak charges much higher fares than bus operators on the same route ($59 for NYP-BOS booked in advance, which is $15 walkup on a Chinatown bus and $1 in advance on Megabus). High Amtrak pricing on such routes seems to be an attempt to price people off trains and reduce crowding, but since the purpose of Amtrak is to provide transportation rather than to make money, it should be running as many trains with as much space as possible, with fares low enough to fill them.
On the New York end, it's a time/money equation; the bus/subway trip would be about 2 hours vs. 20 minutes. At the other end, I looked into Bart/Golden Gate Transit deal. It's not as cut and dried as you think. Not all of Golden Gate Transit's buses allow baggage. They weren't designed for that.
 
In addition to lower fares, another major obstacle for most people is time. Given a choice to fly from NY to LA for $300 in a few hours or take Amtrak for $150 and get there in a few days, most people would chose to fly - even though it cost more! Also, many people only have a week's vacation. Taking Amtrak cross country both ways would use up most of their vacation time!
I agree, but for overnight trips like Chicago to DC, I wouldn't mind sacrificing a rough night to save $80. With the price it is now, it makes absolutely no economic sense to take the train. If they lower fares on these overnight trains, then I am sure far more would flock to using them because money is always the prime motivator of change :rolleyes: Then my hope would be Amtrak introduce some type of budget sleeper accommodation, i.e no meals included, no shower, just a flat bunk bed. Even this would have to be 25-50% cheaper than flying for people to seriously use it.
Taking the Train is now for the Rich....like taking the train use to be for the people that could not afford to fly...but now there has been a reversal...the "HERDS"..."Greyhound"...Cheap folks take to the air....as a Flight Attendant my self...I wish I worked for Amtrak....I would prolly get ALOT HIGHER quality of passengers on-board!!
 
You can sign up for such journeys at http://www.americanorientexpress.com/ . However, it would be absolutely ridiculous for the federal government to subsidize cruises for rich people, while general public transport in the US continues to languish.

It might be ridiculous but they are doing it and have been doing it for years - all I am saying is do it better to further increase the sale of higher priced tickets. How many people in firstclass are trying to get from point A to point B in a timely, inexpensive manner? Based on my recent trip around the country and the informal surveys I took on the Empire Builder, Capitol Limited, Coast Starlight, Southwest Chief and the Cardinal, about 14% and every sleeper was occupied for pretty much the whole trip. I had meals with couples from Germany, Australia, Norway and Austria who wanted to see our country and were willing to pay the extra. Sometimes we have to get over our jealousies and realize that, in many cases, making something more attractive to those with more money is inturn helping those with less by raising profits and thereby providing a better service for all.

The Grand Luxe and Orient Express are for the rich same as the Queen Mary is in cruising but the cruise industry also has Carnival and Princess for those that can't afford the former. Why can't Amtrak offer that option in rail travel?
 
I believe that the comparison of airline fares to train fares is illconcieved - Amtrak's major competition and an industry they should be studying is that of cruising. The train is a form of vacation to many, many people and could be for many more with a little better promotion in that area - a cruise offers a way to see places you want to see while always having a place to eat and sleep. Many people want to see more of the US and Canada or even Mexico for that matter and are willing to pay for first-class service which Amtrak does not offer. I just completed traveling cross country first class by train to board a cruiseship for a week and then returned home by first class train and the difference is staggaring while the cost is similar on a per diem basis. First class on a train means you have a bed, mediocore food and nothing else - you can't even get preferential treatment when it comes to a seat in the observation car. The cruise industry has developed many ways to add revenue i.e. photos, gambling, bingo, excursions at different stops, etc., etc.; Amtrak needs to do the same or raise prices. Given some of the numbers I have seen on this site it looks as though first class passengers are the most profitable so why not first class only trains? The Coast Starlight with the first class only lounge car with movie theater and couples dining is close but they need to upgrade the rooms slightly. First class only trains once or twice a month with planned itineraries ( like cruises ) would succeed. How about a train on which you stay and eat that stops for a day at Niagara Falls, departs that night for 2 days in NYC ( play tickets included ) or the Grand Canyon............... Where do I sign up!!
Who's tracks are the Williams - Grand Canyon? Private?

:unsure:
 
I believe that the comparison of airline fares to train fares is illconcieved - Amtrak's major competition and an industry they should be studying is that of cruising. The train is a form of vacation to many, many people and could be for many more with a little better promotion in that area - a cruise offers a way to see places you want to see while always having a place to eat and sleep. Many people want to see more of the US and Canada or even Mexico for that matter and are willing to pay for first-class service which Amtrak does not offer. I just completed traveling cross country first class by train to board a cruiseship for a week and then returned home by first class train and the difference is staggaring while the cost is similar on a per diem basis. First class on a train means you have a bed, mediocore food and nothing else - you can't even get preferential treatment when it comes to a seat in the observation car. The cruise industry has developed many ways to add revenue i.e. photos, gambling, bingo, excursions at different stops, etc., etc.; Amtrak needs to do the same or raise prices. Given some of the numbers I have seen on this site it looks as though first class passengers are the most profitable so why not first class only trains? The Coast Starlight with the first class only lounge car with movie theater and couples dining is close but they need to upgrade the rooms slightly. First class only trains once or twice a month with planned itineraries ( like cruises ) would succeed. How about a train on which you stay and eat that stops for a day at Niagara Falls, departs that night for 2 days in NYC ( play tickets included ) or the Grand Canyon............... Where do I sign up!!
Who's tracks are the Williams - Grand Canyon? Private?

:unsure:
Grand Canyon Tourist Railroad owns them.
 
Well, given the way Amtrak simply decided to pay replace concrete tiles in the NE corridor that broke 40 year too early (rather than having the company that built them replace them as was guaranteed), the labor contract Amtrak is in the process of signing, that Amtrak is scheduled to receive .5 billion dollars more from the federal government than they have received in past years, and that ridership is at an all time high, I'd say that Amtrak, with better management, should be swimming in money.
There are a whole slew of reasons for them paying for the labor to replace the concrete ties to go into. But suffice to say, its not as stupid as you make it out to be.

Next, Amtrak is about $3 billion in debt. They are not swimming in money. The reason for that debt is that the government attempted to force them to become profitable in the infamous "Glidepath to Self Sufficiency". Didn't work, couldn't work. No railroad in the world operates without government subsidy in some form or another. Actually, no mass transit industry does so, period, be they direct (Amtrak) or indirect (airlines, busses, etc)

Amtrak is operating on other peoples tracks. They are operating a set of tracks built by several railroads over a hundred years ago. They need constant work to just be usable. They are dealing with rolling stock, some of which are 60 years old, and most of it is 30+ years old. This stuff needs repair, and in many cases, they really need replacement. They need more equipment. While leaving pricing levels at they are, Amtrak could probably invest $10 billion and waste less of it than any other government agency.

I believe that the comparison of airline fares to train fares is illconcieved - Amtrak's major competition and an industry they should be studying is that of cruising. The train is a form of vacation to many, many people and could be for many more with a little better promotion in that area - a cruise offers a way to see places you want to see while always having a place to eat and sleep. Many people want to see more of the US and Canada or even Mexico for that matter and are willing to pay for first-class service which Amtrak does not offer. I just completed traveling cross country first class by train to board a cruiseship for a week and then returned home by first class train and the difference is staggaring while the cost is similar on a per diem basis. First class on a train means you have a bed, mediocore food and nothing else - you can't even get preferential treatment when it comes to a seat in the observation car. The cruise industry has developed many ways to add revenue i.e. photos, gambling, bingo, excursions at different stops, etc., etc.; Amtrak needs to do the same or raise prices. Given some of the numbers I have seen on this site it looks as though first class passengers are the most profitable so why not first class only trains? The Coast Starlight with the first class only lounge car with movie theater and couples dining is close but they need to upgrade the rooms slightly. First class only trains once or twice a month with planned itineraries ( like cruises ) would succeed. How about a train on which you stay and eat that stops for a day at Niagara Falls, departs that night for 2 days in NYC ( play tickets included ) or the Grand Canyon............... Where do I sign up!!
I just got finished saying that they do not provide simply rail cruises. If you happen to think this, you are wrong. Passengers traveling, for instance, on the Empire Builder from Chicago to Seattle, or from on the CZ from Chicago to SF, or similar itineraries, are possibly taking rail cruises. Most are not. You fail to recognize the nature of turn over on these routes.

Take the City of New Orleans. The CONL runs one and a half sleeping cars, or more specifically, one sleeping car and a crew dorm. That sleeping car is rarely full. Very few people ride this train CHI-NOL. What the CONL does, more so, is function as a patch work of local trains, ferrying many people between short distance jaunts along the local stops of its line. It just happens to run the whole route. A few people use it for such. If you look at their trains, you'll notice the vast majority of people riding the long distance trains do so between shorter points.

And yes, overnight travelers do use it for transportation, as well. For example, the CL is used by business travelers to Chicago. The California Zephyr transports so many people between Chicago and Denver that a couple of sleepers act as a ferry between those stops, picked up by one train in Chicago, left in Denver, and taken back by the trains opposite number. Amtrak provides serious transportation, just like any other company. Some people use it simply for pleasure, just like I occasionally do with commuter rail.

While occasionally on particular days or routes Amtrak is of comparable cost to flying, this is not generally the case in my experience. For long routes it is rarely competitive with budget airlines (LAX-CHI is $143 on Amtrak booked in advance, while Frontier makes the same trip for $123). Much worse, however, are corridor routes, where Amtrak charges much higher fares than bus operators on the same route ($59 for NYP-BOS booked in advance, which is $15 walkup on a Chinatown bus and $1 in advance on Megabus). High Amtrak pricing on such routes seems to be an attempt to price people off trains and reduce crowding, but since the purpose of Amtrak is to provide transportation rather than to make money, it should be running as many trains with as much space as possible, with fares low enough to fill them.
I don't know where you got the impression that Amtrak isn't supposed to make money. They don't make money, but they are supposed to try to. It is a cardinal flaw in the Amtrak law. Amtrak's job should be to transport as many people as they can in reasonable comfort for the best value possible. Their actual job is to make money, preferably by transporting passengers.

Amtrak has limited capacity. They manage to do a pretty good job filling their trains at current prices. They'd be idiots to charge less than the market will bear.
 
Well, given the way Amtrak simply decided to pay replace concrete tiles in the NE corridor that broke 40 year too early (rather than having the company that built them replace them as was guaranteed), the labor contract Amtrak is in the process of signing, that Amtrak is scheduled to receive .5 billion dollars more from the federal government than they have received in past years, and that ridership is at an all time high, I'd say that Amtrak, with better management, should be swimming in money.
There are a whole slew of reasons for them paying for the labor to replace the concrete ties to go into. But suffice to say, its not as stupid as you make it out to be.

Next, Amtrak is about $3 billion in debt. They are not swimming in money. The reason for that debt is that the government attempted to force them to become profitable in the infamous "Glidepath to Self Sufficiency". Didn't work, couldn't work. No railroad in the world operates without government subsidy in some form or another. Actually, no mass transit industry does so, period, be they direct (Amtrak) or indirect (airlines, busses, etc)

Amtrak is operating on other peoples tracks. They are operating a set of tracks built by several railroads over a hundred years ago. They need constant work to just be usable. They are dealing with rolling stock, some of which are 60 years old, and most of it is 30+ years old. This stuff needs repair, and in many cases, they really need replacement. They need more equipment. While leaving pricing levels at they are, Amtrak could probably invest $10 billion and waste less of it than any other government agency.

I believe that the comparison of airline fares to train fares is illconcieved - Amtrak's major competition and an industry they should be studying is that of cruising. The train is a form of vacation to many, many people and could be for many more with a little better promotion in that area - a cruise offers a way to see places you want to see while always having a place to eat and sleep. Many people want to see more of the US and Canada or even Mexico for that matter and are willing to pay for first-class service which Amtrak does not offer. I just completed traveling cross country first class by train to board a cruiseship for a week and then returned home by first class train and the difference is staggaring while the cost is similar on a per diem basis. First class on a train means you have a bed, mediocore food and nothing else - you can't even get preferential treatment when it comes to a seat in the observation car. The cruise industry has developed many ways to add revenue i.e. photos, gambling, bingo, excursions at different stops, etc., etc.; Amtrak needs to do the same or raise prices. Given some of the numbers I have seen on this site it looks as though first class passengers are the most profitable so why not first class only trains? The Coast Starlight with the first class only lounge car with movie theater and couples dining is close but they need to upgrade the rooms slightly. First class only trains once or twice a month with planned itineraries ( like cruises ) would succeed. How about a train on which you stay and eat that stops for a day at Niagara Falls, departs that night for 2 days in NYC ( play tickets included ) or the Grand Canyon............... Where do I sign up!!
I just got finished saying that they do not provide simply rail cruises. If you happen to think this, you are wrong. Passengers traveling, for instance, on the Empire Builder from Chicago to Seattle, or from on the CZ from Chicago to SF, or similar itineraries, are possibly taking rail cruises. Most are not. You fail to recognize the nature of turn over on these routes.

Take the City of New Orleans. The CONL runs one and a half sleeping cars, or more specifically, one sleeping car and a crew dorm. That sleeping car is rarely full. Very few people ride this train CHI-NOL. What the CONL does, more so, is function as a patch work of local trains, ferrying many people between short distance jaunts along the local stops of its line. It just happens to run the whole route. A few people use it for such. If you look at their trains, you'll notice the vast majority of people riding the long distance trains do so between shorter points.

And yes, overnight travelers do use it for transportation, as well. For example, the CL is used by business travelers to Chicago. The California Zephyr transports so many people between Chicago and Denver that a couple of sleepers act as a ferry between those stops, picked up by one train in Chicago, left in Denver, and taken back by the trains opposite number. Amtrak provides serious transportation, just like any other company. Some people use it simply for pleasure, just like I occasionally do with commuter rail.

While occasionally on particular days or routes Amtrak is of comparable cost to flying, this is not generally the case in my experience. For long routes it is rarely competitive with budget airlines (LAX-CHI is $143 on Amtrak booked in advance, while Frontier makes the same trip for $123). Much worse, however, are corridor routes, where Amtrak charges much higher fares than bus operators on the same route ($59 for NYP-BOS booked in advance, which is $15 walkup on a Chinatown bus and $1 in advance on Megabus). High Amtrak pricing on such routes seems to be an attempt to price people off trains and reduce crowding, but since the purpose of Amtrak is to provide transportation rather than to make money, it should be running as many trains with as much space as possible, with fares low enough to fill them.
I don't know where you got the impression that Amtrak isn't supposed to make money. They don't make money, but they are supposed to try to. It is a cardinal flaw in the Amtrak law. Amtrak's job should be to transport as many people as they can in reasonable comfort for the best value possible. Their actual job is to make money, preferably by transporting passengers.

Amtrak has limited capacity. They manage to do a pretty good job filling their trains at current prices. They'd be idiots to charge less than the market will bear.
I don't know who said that Amtrak just provided rail cruises which, I agree, is wrong. However, they do provide rail cruises wheather intended or not (obviously intended given connection with Amtrak Vacations), these type travelers are the most profitable and there are many of them that could be attracted with little effort. Failing to understand turnover from a business standpoint is not one of my problems - if I am providing a service and have the choice of one customer paying a high price over a long period of time and many different customers paying a lower price for the same seat over the same period of time, the choice is the high paying customer.

I realize the original purpose of passenger railroad which should remain its main goal but times have changed and the railroad needs to change with them - Amtrak does not have to be all or nothing one way or the other. What is wrong with trying to attract more high profit passengers and attempting to make Amtrak financially feasible so it can continue to serve pleasure and business. If they don't do something in the near future, they may not be around to serve anyone much longer.
 
Out of popular demand, a gas price tutorial follows.

If oil goes $200 a barrel, which is the upper end of Goldman Sach’s predictions for prices over the next two years, then the price of gasoline relative to oil changes dramatically; the two do not track each other linearly. At $200 a barrel, crude alone costs $4.77 a gallon. Add on the usual costs of refining and distributing and taxes, and pump prices rise to a range of $6 to $7 a gallon. The uncertainty comes from political and social elements. Oil supplies have traditionally increased by 1.5% a year in the past, but the past eight year show that the "find" rate is slowing at 4.5% a year, accelerating downward at 3.3% of that rate yearly. China and India are, together, removing 13.3% percent of that new oil each year, growing at 0.8% a year. Now, none of these are independent variables, but to avoid differential equations and graph paper, we assume they are, and work out this third-order relationship at $220 a barrel for oil, to get something between $6.56 and $7.60 a gallon for gas. Since the prediction includes time (December 2008, just before Bush leaves office), and a significant political factor (Israel bombs Iran), you favor the high-side, $7.60 a gallon, since the second factor is quite negative. But since China has an energy policy (the U.S incredibly does not, not a big surprise since we don't have transportation policy either) which is currently raising gas prices by almost 24%, we may have to assume a reduction of the China-India loss rate of 13.3% to, say, 5%, which would drive the price of oil down from $220 to $188 an barrel, which, if you assume the same processing, delivery and taxes, gas falls by the same amount, to get almost $6.80 a gallon under the same circumstances: unlikely, since the Chinese are growing their managed economy at an enormous rate.

That mass transit is nice, but is not often used for rides to and from the airport or train station is a consequence of the way it is conceived in this country; as a kind of transport of last resort note. People have hope that growth will make it better, but even growth requires taxpayer subsidies and subsidies guarantees a marginal system. In the eastern part of the U.S the much greater impaction of things, and the dense, huge populations of criminal elements in the cities, doom mass transit ever to the public dole out of your pocket and mine. Buses even in Philadelphia run empty most of the time. In Trenton, it is even a greater joke. As the criminal classes become more and more aggressive, that is, as Liberalism continues to undermine work motivation, the situation will get worse, especially in the East. Denver is different from Trenton; the new trains are clean and filling up, since the western portion of the U.S is somewhat shielded from all this, for now. But the federal influence, which is an eastern rite, will keep mass transit far from what it could be for the same money.
 
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