Why is average speed so low on LD trains?

[battalion51]

George, portions of the Michigan line I believe are now set up for 110 MPH operation, and they have done some testing in Illinois with PTC, and I believe there are plans to implement the system permanently and increase speeds.

Also, on the technicality, the Empire Corridor and ALB-UCA portion of CSX trackage would have the longest continuous high speed operation if you go by true off corridor definitions. Amtrak defines the corridor as anything that is covered by Zone 1 & Zone 2 jobs (BOS-WAS, SPG-NHV, HAR-PHL). Anything else is considered off corridor.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

First of all, 40 plus years ago when the railroad companies were operating the trains, most of the passenger train engineers were very senior men that knew the line like the back of their hand and there was a general unwritten understanding between them and the management: We have scheduled the premier trains based on everything going right and you have the railroad given to you to make it happen. When things get out of whack and you get behind schedule, use your best judgement as to what is safe and try to make up time. Therefore, a lot of times the speed limits were neither strictly enforced nor strictly observed.
For the City of New Orleans, I can be fairly specific, as I was a fairly regular Memphis TN to Fulton KY passenger for a few years and rode Memphis south several times. In the 1950's early 60's the ICRR main line was in reasonably good condition, was double tracked Chicago to Cairo IL, Fulton KY to Memphis, and Jackson MS to Hammond LA. Between Memphis and Jackson MS the passenger trains went through Grenada MS, a line they fairly well had to themselves which was about 6 miles shorter than the current route through Yazoo City. A goodly length of the line in Illinois had a 100 mph speed limt. Virtually all the rest was 79 mph. There were and are numerous cuves in the section between Carbondale IL and Grenada MS, but most were in the 50 mph to 70 mph range. At that time the CNO schedule was 16.5 hours for 921.1 miles Chicago to New Orleans. Everything except the Panama Limited got out of the way, and those meetings were usually on double track. It was well know that the train would move at 90 mph plus in the 79 mph territory when behind schedule, and sometimes even when not.

Those days are gone in almost all aspects. An engineer that fudges the speed limits today will find himself on the ground. The double track main is gone. It was singled a number of years ago but with long sidings. The 100 mph territory was reduced to 90 mph around the time Amtrak came into being and the signal hardware permitting plus 79 mph removed when the second main was taken up. The Grenada District is now a 10 mph streak of rust and the passenger trains share the longer but flatter freight line through the Delta. The freight line however has been given signals and welded rail so that the passenger train speed limit is 79 mph, but it has more miles of lower speed than the Grenada line.

Other locations are less extreme, but much the same has happened in other places. All of the BNSF 90 mph territory for the Southwest Chief was 100 mph in the 50's, and a lot of the 79 mph territory was as well. The ex ACL main from Richmond to Jacksonville also allowed 90 mph plus at one time and was fully double tracked. Now it is 79 mph with alternating segments of single and double track.

The Crescent is probably as close as any train to its pre-Amtrak best time, but it goes between Washington and Atlanta on a line that was once fully double track and is now reduced to alternating segments of single and double for much of its length and runs at a slightly slower schedule than its Southern Railway System best.

Yes, I, too, remember trains going faster than the speed limit.

There was a most entertaining article in TRAINS Magazine a few years ago about a long ago engineer for the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railroad. He was known for keeping time and making up time. He powered the Dixie Flagler for the Nashville to Chattanooga portion of its Chicago to Miami route.

Seems one time it had engine problems northbound and had to stop at Cowan, TN, not a regular stop. It lost 24 minutes there. It made up those 24 minutes to arrive exactly on time in Nashville.To do so, he had to make 100 mph for a significant portion of the journey. This was in a modernized steam locomotive, not a diesel.

Made a great read.

The article made a point that most people had already eaten breakfast at that time of morning, so food wouldn't be hopping off the tables in the diner. Must have been a great ride. Wish I had been on it.

 

[George Harris]

Seems one time it had engine problems northbound and had to stop at Cowan, TN, not a regular stop. It lost 24 minutes there. It made up those 24 minutes to arrive exactly on time in Nashville.To do so, he had to make 100 mph for a significant portion of the journey. This was in a modernized steam locomotive, not a diesel.
Must have been a great ride. Wish I had been on it.

So do I. And, so fare as I know, the NC never has a speed limit faster than 60 mph. The Dixie Flagler was scheduled to run Chattanooga to Nashville in 3 hours if I recall correctly, which was a 50 mph average on a 151 mile line with a 60 mph speed limit that also had several miles limited to 35 mph over Raccoon Mountain and a few more at Cowan at 30 mph, plus, 50 mph down the grade north of Tullahoma, IIRC Yes, he ws flying.

George

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Seems one time it had engine problems northbound and had to stop at Cowan, TN, not a regular stop. It lost 24 minutes there. It made up those 24 minutes to arrive exactly on time in Nashville.To do so, he had to make 100 mph for a significant portion of the journey. This was in a modernized steam locomotive, not a diesel.
Must have been a great ride. Wish I had been on it.

So do I. And, so fare as I know, the NC never has a speed limit faster than 60 mph. The Dixie Flagler was scheduled to run Chattanooga to Nashville in 3 hours if I recall correctly, which was a 50 mph average on a 151 mile line with a 60 mph speed limit that also had several miles limited to 35 mph over Raccoon Mountain and a few more at Cowan at 30 mph, plus, 50 mph down the grade north of Tullahoma, IIRC Yes, he ws flying.

George

Then there was the time Feb. 1955 my parents and sister and I had visited relatives in Nashville. My sister and I were to come home on the Dixieland (two months after the Flagler had been re-equipped and re-named). Daddy got lost driving in Nashville and got to the station after the train should have left.

Fortunately it was still in. I ran down the platform yelling "hold that train".

Anyway, we left Nashville 20 minutes late and got to CHA exactly on time. Don't suppose we did any 100mph that night but I bet we at least did 80.And that in brand new coaches and sleepers!!!

There was another trip my sister took on the Georgian from Atlanta to Chattanooga which involved similar time made up.

One morning I saw the northbound Dixieland arrive Chattanooga 20 minutes early.The southbound Georgian was running late for what I am sure were valid reasons, back then, not the usual---and they obviously did not want one train to delay the other backing in and out around in the yards, so they scooted the Dixieland on in early so it could just sit there in the station off to the side and be out of the way for the late-running Georgian to come in, quickly do its thing and hit the road. Did not delay the northbound Dixieland at all.

Now that was all being done for the passengers benefit!!

This is should have happened:

correct time

s.b. Georgian arrive 5.25 a.m. lv. 5.30

n.b.Dixieland arrive 7.40 a.m. lv 7.50

here is what did happen:

n.b. Dixieland arr about 7.20 or 7. 25 a.m.

s.b. Georgian, about 7.30-7.35

n.b. Dixieland depart exactly on time 7.50 taking mother and me to Evansville, Ind.

Now that was dispatching for us passengers.

I am confident the Georgian flew like a bat out of Hades from CHA to ATL, as much as the landscape l would allow.

 

[George Harris]

This is should have happened:correct time

s.b. Georgian arrive 5.25 a.m. lv. 5.30

n.b.Dixieland arrive 7.40 a.m. lv 7.50

here is what did happen:

n.b. Dixieland arr about 7.20 or 7. 25 a.m.

s.b. Georgian, about 7.30-7.35

n.b. Dixieland depart exactly on time 7.50 taking mother and me to Evansville, Ind.

Now that was dispatching for us passengers.

I am confident the Georgian flew like a bat out of Hades from CHA to ATL, as much as the landscape l would allow.

The Dixieland arrived 15 minutes early off the curvaceous W&A ! ! ! How many G's can you pull with a train? That is running on jet fuel not diesel fuel. I'll bet the Atlanta to Cartersville was stay in your seat or bunk and brace yourself.

When you consider what the Gerogian and any other train was run like on this line in the last years of passenger sercvice, all you can say is, Oh how the mighty have fallen.

George