Why no elevated platform in Flagstaff?

[SteveSFL]

Last night I was watching the Flagstaff railcam as the SWC arrived. The conductor threw the stool out of the coach and then stepped out and immediately walked to the line of coach passengers waiting to board. The first detraining coach passenger had a large suitcase and the attached video shows his/her tumble off of the stool onto the ground. It made me wonder why there is not a level platform in Flagstaff given that it is such a busy station for Amtrak.

My apologies if posting images/videos from the railcams is prohibited here.

 

[MARC Rider]

Last night I was watching the Flagstaff railcam as the SWC arrived. The conductor threw the stool out of the coach and then stepped out and immediately walked to the line of coach passengers waiting to board. The first detraining coach passenger had a large suitcase and the attached video shows his/her tumble off of the stool onto the ground. It made me wonder why there is not a level platform in Flagstaff given that it is such a busy station for Amtrak.

My apologies if posting images/videos from the railcams is prohibited here.

It's not just a level platform, I think that the normal procedure is for crew to help detraining passengers. I know they usually do it in Washington when we come in on the low platforms. Somebody needs to counsel the conductor about needing to help people getting off. I have some experience, as a conductor walked away from the door as my wife was detraining at White River Junction on the Vermonter and not only did that but took the stool away from the door. I had to help her down, but she nearly tripped and fell. Most conductors and crew are pretty good about this, but not all.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The first detraining coach passenger had a large suitcase and the attached video shows his/her tumble off of the stool onto the ground.

At first I wondered why they put the luggage down on the stool since that would only make things more difficult. But if you look closely you can see they're looking right and left while doing the "come deal with this for me" pose. If they were not the first to disembark someone probably would have helped them but it seems they were blocking the path for everyone else. All they had to do was pull the luggage back in again and use the stool and handles as intended to get themselves down. Then they could pull the luggage off afterward. Instead they threw physics to the wind and literally fell over themselves.

It made me wonder why there is not a level platform in Flagstaff given that it is such a busy station for Amtrak.

I've used the current platform dozens of times without issue. If it needs anything it wold be a mobile ramp like you see for regional jets. It costs millions of dollars for a brand new platform to meet every applicable requirement and that makes it a difficult sell to many, including myself.

 

[joelkfla]

At first I wondered why they put the luggage down on the stool since that would only make things more difficult. But if you look closely you can see they're looking right and left while doing the "come deal with this for me" pose. If they were not the first to disembark someone probably would have helped them but it seems they were blocking the path for everyone else. All they had to do was pull the luggage back in again and use the stool and handles as intended to get themselves down. Then they could pull the luggage off afterward. Instead they threw physics to the wind and literally fell over themselves.

You can't blame the passenger. People often don't reason things out well when in an unfamiliar situation. She probably felt pressured not to block the doorway. And trying to lift the bag back into the car once on the stool might have resulted in an equally disastrous outcome, while outstretched and off balance.

The conductor was only a few feet away, but with his back to the door. She should have shouted to him, or waited for him to turn around. But again, she was in an unfamiliar situation, and probably didn't want to be seen as a bother or be scolded by the conductor.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

You can't blame the passenger. People often don't reason things out well when in an unfamiliar situation. She probably felt pressured not to block the doorway. And trying to lift the bag back into the car once on the stool might have resulted in an equally disastrous outcome, while outstretched and off balance.

An unfamiliar situation as in using a stool? Carrying within your means of movement? Getting out of the way so others can help? Rather than blaming the passenger for failing I'm saying that I believe they can succeed once they do think it through. The same way the rest of us figured it out.

The conductor was only a few feet away, but with his back to the door. She should have shouted to him, or waited for him to turn around. But again, she was in an unfamiliar situation, and probably didn't want to be seen as a bother or be scolded by the conductor.

Are conductors supposed to hold your luggage and help you down? I'm sure some of them do that but so far as I am aware it's not part of their job. I'd support adding language to the booking and ticketing process that spells out whose job it is to deal with carry-on luggage (ours) so there's no confusion.

 

[Palmland]

This appears to be a coach baggage car. Shouldn’t the conductor, ac, or coach attendant be standing there assisting if needed? I see them doing that every time I’m at our small town station. This passenger obviously needed assistance.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The conductor hoped off and was directing incoming passengers to the correct door. My last trip the dinning car attendant open the door for me, because my attendant had disappeared. That said the conductor did make an announcement only two doors were opening one in the back, one in the front. I guess my NY sleeper was not defined as back of the train. I know the last sleeping car was not opened as that SCA walk past me while I was in the vestibule as the train decelerated.

 

[joelkfla]

Are conductors supposed to hold your luggage and help you down? I'm sure some of them do that but so far as I am aware it's not part of their job. I'd support adding language to the booking and ticketing process that spells out whose job it is to deal with carry-on luggage (ours) so there's no confusion.

Here's the beginning of the Coach Attendant's en route responsibilities in the SSM:

And here's the beginning of the Conductor's en route responsibilities:

So, yes. If there is no other employee at that door to assist detraining passengers with their luggage, I would expect the Conductor to assume that responsibility.

 

[joelkfla]

An unfamiliar situation as in using a stool? Carrying within your means of movement? Getting out of the way so others can help? Rather than blaming the passenger for failing I'm saying that I believe they can succeed once they do think it through. The same way the rest of us figured it out.

How many times had you stepped down a foot or more onto a not-quite-level stool that might be 18" square and a 1-2' away, before your first trip on a train? I find it a bit scary stepping down onto those stools when they're angled down away from the train, as they often are because the blacktop platform, or even the ballast sometimes, is not level. And the handrail is not much help when it's behind you.

It may have been her first train trip. She may have expected assistance, and become flustered when none was offered. It probably never occurred to her to climb down first and then pull her luggage down. And with the stool that far away from the train, she might not have been able to reach the handle from the stool. And if she could she still might have toppled over from the weight and momentum of the bag.

Don't assume everyone riding is in top physical condition. Amtrak is supposed to provide assistance boarding and detraining, as laid out in the SSM.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Here's the beginning of the Coach Attendant's en route responsibilities in the SSM:
View attachment 35306
And here's the beginning of the Conductor's en route responsibilities:
View attachment 35307
So, yes. If there is no other employee at that door to assist detraining passengers with their luggage, I would expect the Conductor to assume that responsibility.

In that case I stand corrected and it was the Conductor's job to stick around and ensure everyone was disembarking smoothly.

It may have been her first train trip. She may have expected assistance, and become flustered when none was offered. It probably never occurred to her to climb down first and then pull her luggage down. And with the stool that far away from the train, she might not have been able to reach the handle from the stool. Don't assume everyone riding is in top physical condition.

Fair enough, but if it takes this many conditions to get this result I remain unconvinced we need a million dollar platform to fix it.

 

[NW cannonball]

It seems to me that there was a FTC (failure to communicate ) between the coach attendant and the Conductor.
Somehow, the "Conductor" -- I can't see his hat or badge in this video -- obviously didn't know that the passenger hadn't already detrained.
I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the Conductor and the onboard attendants have lists of who gets on and off and where, they know that, it's part of their jobs, and they mostly communicate that info prior to any stop on the "Western Long Distance Trains".
There's always been someone at the door when I've detrained on any of the western-long-distance trains, and lately, they offer me a hand with my bag on the step. Coach or sleeper the same.

Maybe, and I have another anecdote, not for this thread, communications between the noobie AC's and the noobie SCA's need to settle down?

 

[Bonser]

An unfamiliar situation as in using a stool? Carrying within your means of movement? Getting out of the way so others can help? Rather than blaming the passenger for failing I'm saying that I believe they can succeed once they do think it through. The same way the rest of us figured it out.


Are conductors supposed to hold your luggage and help you down? I'm sure some of them do that but so far as I am aware it's not part of their job. I'd support adding language to the booking and ticketing process that spells out whose job it is to deal with carry-on luggage (ours) so there's no confusion.

Clearly the conductor failed here. Yes, he/she should have assisted with both the luggage and the passenger.

 

[BlackDiamond]

This discussion is interesting because this is something we take seriously as operations volunteers at the trolley museum. Our cars all have steps some of them fairly tall ( you wonder how those ladies in the long skirts managed back in the day) and built in an age where no one worried about accessibility. As a result we are very careful about assisting passengers especially anyone who is physically impaired ( which happens often) even using the Mobilift if there is any doubt or if the passenger requests it. I imagine that there might be reluctance at an Amtrak stop to use a Mobilift unless absolutely necessary given the delay inherent in using it.

In any case we are stressed about the importance of passenger safety and the need to assist with boarding and disembarking even if we are not in the crew assigned to the car.

 

[JRR]

An unfamiliar situation as in using a stool? Carrying within your means of movement? Getting out of the way so others can help? Rather than blaming the passenger for failing I'm saying that I believe they can succeed once they do think it through. The same way the rest of us figured it out.


Are conductors supposed to hold your luggage and help you down? I'm sure some of them do that but so far as I am aware it's not part of their job. I'd support adding language to the booking and ticketing process that spells out whose job it is to deal with carry-on luggage (ours) so there's no confusion.

I’ve always had someone to help on or off! An attendant or Conductor has always been there when boarding or disembarking!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Clearly the conductor failed here. Yes, he/she should have assisted with both the luggage and the passenger.

It looks like he was focused on getting to the boarding passengers as quickly as possible.

I imagine that there might be reluctance at an Amtrak stop to use a Mobilift unless absolutely necessary given the delay inherent in using it.

I've flown many regional jets and the ramps they use seem to move quickly and work well for most passengers. Considering that trains are much closer to the ground it should be possible to find or design a friction ramp with handrails to serve a similar purpose.

I’ve always had someone to help on or off! An attendant or Conductor has always been there when boarding or disembarking!

I've only ever been assisted by an SCA, not a Conductor or CCA, and generally expected to handle whatever I brought myself.

 

[flitcraft]

Getting off a jet way level ramp into the airport is pretty easy for most folks. But, when Seatac Airport had to use a fair amount of non-gate arrivals, extra airport personnel were needed to get passengers down the airplane stairs and into the airport. In fact, the most treacherous part of the disembarkation tended to be the ten yards of level ground between the plane stairs and the door into the airport. I saw more than one passenger face-plant on the way into the airport; it didn't help that the airport construction that necessitated this coincided with one of snowier winters in Seattle!

I suspect that Amtrak personnel could tell their own stories of unfortunate passenger exits.

 

[MARC Rider]

Getting off a jet way level ramp into the airport is pretty easy for most folks. But, when Seatac Airport had to use a fair amount of non-gate arrivals, extra airport personnel were needed to get passengers down the airplane stairs and into the airport. In fact, the most treacherous part of the disembarkation tended to be the ten yards of level ground between the plane stairs and the door into the airport. I saw more than one passenger face-plant on the way into the airport; it didn't help that the airport construction that necessitated this coincided with one of snowier winters in Seattle!

I suspect that Amtrak personnel could tell their own stories of unfortunate passenger exits.

Ah, you young whippersnappers have it so easy. Back in 1967, when I was 14, my parents sent me down to Florida over the winter holidays to visit Grandma. The flight down was fine, but I flew home into a major winter storm. At the time Philadelphia International Airport had not yet built jetways. (Miami had, go figure.) When we landed I had to make my way down a snow-covered stairway and stumble across the snow-covered tarmac into the terminal. The next time I flew out of Philadelphia in 1971 to visit colleges, they had installed jetways and the walk across the tarmac was no longer needed.

 

[dlagrua]

Going LD on Amtrak I can't recall level platforms at too many stations. As a senior I step down, the baggage is held in one hand while my other hand grabs the side of the door frame. Thankfully the SCA is there to help nearly all the time.

 

[Rasputin]

I recall being somewhat shocked at a situation while boarding No. 4 as a coach passenger in Flagstaff a few years ago. In the boarding line in front of us a lady with some mobility issues was having difficulty stepping up onto the train. The coach attendant was standing nearby and it was obvious to me that the attendant was aware of the situation but looked away. If it was not for the assistance of two other passengers, I don't think the lady would have been able to board.

Most of the time the attendants are quite helpful but not always and since no one seems to be in charge on long distance trains, a neglectful employee incurs no repercussions.

 

[John Santos]

It looks like he was focused on getting to the boarding passengers as quickly as possible.
[...]

Shouldn't the priority be helping passengers get off the train before helping new passengers get aboard? Otherwise there is chaos and the whole process takes much longer! The conductor/attendant's only interaction with boarding passengers should be to tell them to stand back and allow other passengers to get off, and that they will assist them once all the passengers trying to get off have done so. Was one of the boarding passengers especially in need of assistance (beyond just a walker or wheel chair), or a VIP (who really should not get priority in this circumstance.)
The train is not going to leave while a conductor is on the platform or in the vestibule with the door open, assisting boarding passengers!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Shouldn't the priority be helping passengers get off the train before helping new passengers get aboard? Otherwise there is chaos and the whole process takes much longer!

The original response ended with a comment saying I did not think the Conductor's behavior was intentionally malicious. Somewhere along the way I edited that part out but I suppose that change made it look like I was saying he did nothing wrong or worthy of criticism.

The conductor/attendant's only interaction with boarding passengers should be to tell them to stand back and allow other passengers to get off, and that they will assist them once all the passengers trying to get off have done so. Was one of the boarding passengers especially in need of assistance (beyond just a walker or wheel chair), or a VIP (who really should not get priority in this circumstance.) The train is not going to leave while a conductor is on the platform or in the vestibule with the door open, assisting boarding passengers!

I have no idea who they were but I've been on that very platform many times and waited for a late train in the middle of the night. Hindsight is 20/20 but in that moment it's easy to assume everyone just wanted to get the stop over and done with. That mindset would explain the actions of the Conductor as well as the actions of the unfortunate passenger who face planted on their way down.

 

[John Santos]

The original response ended with a comment saying I did not think the Conductor's behavior was intentionally malicious. Somewhere along the way I edited that part out but I suppose that change made it look like I was saying he did nothing wrong or worthy of criticism.


I have no idea who they were but I've been on that very platform many times and waited for a late train in the middle of the night. Hindsight is 20/20 but in that moment it's easy to assume everyone just wanted to get the stop over and done with. That mindset would explain the actions of the Conductor as well as the actions of the unfortunate passenger who face planted on their way down.

Yup, human factors like that often interfere with safety. (I've been watching way too many episodes of "Air Disasters" (or whatever it is called) on the Smithsonian Channel...)

 

[joelkfla]

Shouldn't the priority be helping passengers get off the train before helping new passengers get aboard? Otherwise there is chaos and the whole process takes much longer! The conductor/attendant's only interaction with boarding passengers should be to tell them to stand back and allow other passengers to get off, and that they will assist them once all the passengers trying to get off have done so. Was one of the boarding passengers especially in need of assistance (beyond just a walker or wheel chair), or a VIP (who really should not get priority in this circumstance.)
The train is not going to leave while a conductor is on the platform or in the vestibule with the door open, assisting boarding passengers!

Looks like he was placing keeping to schedule above passenger safety.

 

[SteveSFL]

For what it’s worth I watched #4 stop in Flagstaff this morning. Going in the opposite direction as the problem stop on #3 that’s the subject of this thread, the sleeper was stopped in that same spot as #3’s coach was. The sleeper attendant stood right by the door and assisted every single passenger either off or on the train.

I wonder if there is some distinction here between sleeper attendants and coach attendants. While both should obviously have the same dedication to passenger safety and comfort, I wonder if coach attendants might be less likely to be anticipating that exceptional service might lead to a tip.

 

[user 5784]

It's not just a level platform, I think that the normal procedure is for crew to help detraining passengers. I know they usually do it in Washington when we come in on the low platforms. Somebody needs to counsel the conductor about needing to help people getting off. I have some experience, as a conductor walked away from the door as my wife was detraining at White River Junction on the Vermonter and not only did that but took the stool away from the door. I had to help her down, but she nearly tripped and fell. Most conductors and crew are pretty good about this, but not all.

station hosts use the stool in WRJ. On Vermonter route, at least in VT, its the station hosts/volunteers who handle the stool, conductors never touch one.