Will Amtrak try to add cars if they see trains sold out in the future?

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Mike S.

Service Attendant
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Buffalo, NY
I guess it would be much easier if they had extra equipment around.

Hypothetical situation: An empire service train is completely sold out months in advance. Does this go off on someones radar?

To answer my own question, maybe, but they probably aren't going to scramble and extra car for one sold out train.

I guess that's the problem with a lack of equipment. If Albany had a stock of extra cars (say 4 or 5) they could add cars (or plan on it) in the future. In business, you've got to strike while the iron's hot. If somone see's that a train is sold out, they may find alternate routes.

Mike S.

PS- I guess I just want Amtrak to go out and by ~400 new passenger cars.
 
Interesting question. I've always wondered if the sleppers sell out in advance if they'd add another sleeper car so they can sell more berths.
 
Right, thinking along the lines of: If all the sleepers are sold out, lets plan on getting another one and at least try to sell more in the comming months.
 
The flip-side of the coin is that if they buy more cars, they will likely retire other cars. The new Viewliners, in the end, lowered Amtraks east-coast sleeper capacity considerably.

The Amfleet Is are over 30 years old. The Superliner Is are about the same age. Both are in need of replacement. If this was NJTransit, the cars would be history already. Put an additional 200 single level short-distance coaches in the system, and Amtrak would be less resourceful with keeping cars running. Meaning, you'd probably see 150 Amfleets kicked over to the scrapyard shortly thereafter.
 
I guess it would be much easier if they had extra equipment around.
Hypothetical situation: An empire service train is completely sold out months in advance. Does this go off on someones radar?

To answer my own question, maybe, but they probably aren't going to scramble and extra car for one sold out train.

I guess that's the problem with a lack of equipment. If Albany had a stock of extra cars (say 4 or 5) they could add cars (or plan on it) in the future. In business, you've got to strike while the iron's hot. If somone see's that a train is sold out, they may find alternate routes.

Mike S.

PS- I guess I just want Amtrak to go out and by ~400 new passenger cars.
I think this has been discussed in other threads over the years and it seems to me that the answers have always been somewhat negative about adding extra equipment if a sold out situatin is seen. The issues seem to be the question of whether or not the extra car(s) would be filled and if the actual demand is there to fill the extra equipment. There also is a staffing quesiton that centers around adding labor and taking the gamble that the coach or sleeper will fill and actually require an additional staff person. It seems to me that unless there is a specific event that is selling out the train, there probably will not be additional equipment added.
 
In addition to GML's response, which is probably what would happen, there are a few other things to consider.

One, this equipment costs a lot of money. While one always does need to have some spares sitting around for bad ordered cars, one doesn't want to be paying off a loan on a car that ends up seeing only 15 to 20 runs a year. That's hardly productive.

Second, adding equipment may also mean adding additional workers. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but there are thresholds beyond which Amtrak must add another conductor to the train crew. And in the case of a sleeper being added, one of course needs another sleeping car attendant. Now Amtrak does have an extra board from which to pull staff, but again one still needs to be careful. After all what happens if they add three sleepers on a given day to trains out of one crew base and pull the three extra board attendants that they have, now on the day of departure another attendant calls in sick?

Third, you do add the sleeper because the existing ones sell out. Now you only sell one more room in the newly added sleeper, what do you do? Do you cancel that one reservation angering that person? Or do you run an empty car with one attendant for one passenger?

Four, you do add the extra car of whatever type to the train. Now the car is someplace else and you don't have the passenger load needed to send it back to where it should be held. You now have to waste money dead heading it back.

I'm sure that there are even a few other issues that I'm not thinking about right now. But regardless, the bottom line is that this isn't quite as simple as it sounds. There are a lot of things that need to be factored into any such plan.
 
Prior to Amtrak, when Railroads operated passenger trains, it was common practice to add coaches and sleeping cars to trains during peak ridership periods. In the winter Railroads operating to Florida would lease cars from Western Railroads and vs versa. Even Railroads that weren't that customer friendly in the mid to late 1960s would add extra cars during the holidays and other peak periods. Often times older non streamlined cars from the 1920s would show up on trains. It also made train watching very interesting when cars from far distant railroads would show up. Unfortunately, there is not a huge pool of passenger train equipment now as there was back then. There also was a larger pool of passenger train employees to call from the extra board. Amtrak was suppose to solve some of peaks and valleys of passenger demand by being the one entity serving all of the US. Unfortunately, Amtrak has never been given the funds to have the resources they need to respond to passenger demand resulting in lost revenue and lost opportunity to gain new customers. The non commuter passenger equipment resources are the worst they have ever been in US history since passenger trains began.
 
And one more, BIG problem - with the changes/cutbacks in the diner system, and the resultant limited capacity, adding sleepers would be a huge problem vis-a-vis having the capacity of feeding all those additional sleeper passengers, plus further limiting the ability of coach passengers from helping the Amtrak financial bottom line by eating in the diner, as coach passengers have to pay for their meals, and they are NOT inexpensive. And in my own experience there has always been a reasonable number of coach pax for whom eating in the diner on an LD train is one of the highlights of their trip, and I could see losing a significant number of prospective future business from those folks when they are told "sorry, there is simply no space for you to eat in the diner". We already have the situation where, without adding additional sleeping cars, the "new and wonderful" dining car system has reduced "throughput", reduced the total capacity to feed people, such that sleeper pax have been given dining reservation seating times of 10 pm or later, which would be completely unacceptable to me. So if you are going to add sleepers or coaches, and sell a significant portion of those seats/rooms, SOMETHING would have to be done to significantly increase diner capacity on those trains. Amtrak has already shot itself in the foot on that issue, as far as I'm concerned, and adding more sleepers/coaches without fixing the diner capacity problem would be shooting themselves in a much higher location.
 
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It is not a coincidence that the three trains that have higher-than-normal sleeper capacity (the Coast Starlight, the Empire Builder, and the Auto Train, are the three that don't run SDS.
 
PS- I guess I just want Amtrak to go out and by ~400 new passenger cars.
I think this has been discussed in other threads over the years and it seems to me that the answers have always been somewhat negative about adding extra equipment if a sold out situatin is seen. The issues seem to be the question of whether or not the extra car(s) would be filled and if the actual demand is there to fill the extra equipment. There also is a staffing quesiton that centers around adding labor and taking the gamble that the coach or sleeper will fill and actually require an additional staff person. It seems to me that unless there is a specific event that is selling out the train, there probably will not be additional equipment added.

I still think it would be interesting to know if were talking about a couple sets of passengers per train that aren't being able to purchase sleeping car space, or could it be that were turning away several sleepers worth of customers? I wonder who is anyone at amtrak keeps that data? As to the diner situation, perhaps if the trains were running with the old sets of four and five sleepers the crew expense compared to revenue would be a lot less? I just can't help but think I am not the only one out here getting "sold out" when attempting to choose a day to travel, sometimes for nearly months on end, if not half the year in some cases. Another factor here no doubt is the point that if your spending weeks trying to book a room you may just forget it and go some other way. So building up a passenger base is no doubt being eroded here just when people are seeking trains as a way to travel again..

I think it is a bit like some have said in other topics, if amtrak were run like a good hotel chain instead of a cheap motel things would be different. It all starts at the top in most cases, but the right people also have to be at the bottom. And although there are the stand out attendants and others, often you get less than satisfactory service for what your paying.. I don't think its the "well they have to be gone so long answer" I often see here, its a matter of hiring on a basis of what can the employee do to improve the publics traveling experience, not wish they hadn't done it.. Unfortunately too many are the latter. An please don't write as usual and say, well there not paid well.. Baloney, I dare say the cheapest pay is more than three times a year what I ever made, which is my fault, but it is not an excuse for poor quality workers.
 
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It is not a coincidence that the three trains that have higher-than-normal sleeper capacity (the Coast Starlight, the Empire Builder, and the Auto Train, are the three that don't run SDS.
Hmm...not sure if I agree. The Lake Shore typically runs 3 sleepers while the crescent only 2. The Lake Shore has Diner Lite, The Crescent has full SDS Diner.

Doest the Coast Starlight not have SDS? I thought it did but they were "improving" the diner this May.
 
It is not a coincidence that the three trains that have higher-than-normal sleeper capacity (the Coast Starlight, the Empire Builder, and the Auto Train, are the three that don't run SDS.
Hmm...not sure if I agree. The Lake Shore typically runs 3 sleepers while the crescent only 2. The Lake Shore has Diner Lite, The Crescent has full SDS Diner.

Doest the Coast Starlight not have SDS? I thought it did but they were "improving" the diner this May.
The CS is indeed running SDS.
 
And one more, BIG problem - with the changes/cutbacks in the diner system, and the resultant limited capacity, adding sleepers would be a huge problem vis-a-vis having the capacity of feeding all those additional sleeper passengers, plus further limiting the ability of coach passengers from helping the Amtrak financial bottom line by eating in the diner, as coach passengers have to pay for their meals, and they are NOT inexpensive. And in my own experience there has always been a reasonable number of coach pax for whom eating in the diner on an LD train is one of the highlights of their trip, and I could see losing a significant number of prospective future business from those folks when they are told "sorry, there is simply no space for you to eat in the diner". We already have the situation where, without adding additional sleeping cars, the "new and wonderful" dining car system has reduced "throughput", reduced the total capacity to feed people, such that sleeper pax have been given dining reservation seating times of 10 pm or later, which would be completely unacceptable to me. So if you are going to add sleepers or coaches, and sell a significant portion of those seats/rooms, SOMETHING would have to be done to significantly increase diner capacity on those trains. Amtrak has already shot itself in the foot on that issue, as far as I'm concerned, and adding more sleepers/coaches without fixing the diner capacity problem would be shooting themselves in a much higher location.
Excellent observation that will probably be with us for some time to come.
 
I wonder of some of the rooms being "sold out" happen more often on the East Coast Trains rather than on the West Coast? I do believe that many Viewliner Sleepers rooms are held by the crew thus cutting into the possible revenue that Amtrak could make. Do they each get their own individual roomettes? Or do they share? Does anyone know?

The real bugger here is how to treat the crew, should they even be getting individual roomettes? This may date me, but I remember traveling Amtrak in the 80's and at that time, each attendant got two seats together in the Coach and that was it, and they were spread out throughout the train. I keep thinking about those Superliner crew transition dorms and wonder if the original thinking was to offer the extra space when other sleepers sold out. I know that the crew did not like the idea of sharing a car with passengers. Does anyone know how they are currently being used?

And I also wonder if it might be smarter now, to plan on multi-space type cars(like the transition dorms) for the future?
 
I wonder of some of the rooms being "sold out" happen more often on the East Coast Trains rather than on the West Coast? I do believe that many Viewliner Sleepers rooms are held by the crew thus cutting into the possible revenue that Amtrak could make. Do they each get their own individual roomettes? Or do they share? Does anyone know?
The lack of single level dorms is definately hurting sales on the East Coast trains. I believe on most trains, the Cardinal might be the exception, the crew now takes up six roomettes. They do indeed each get their own roomette, and even without considering the toilet situation, I tend to think that it wouldn't be fair to force them to share. Especially since it would be hard to avoid ending up with a male and female in the same room. So the only answer is to find, build, buy, or otherwise obtain some dorms.

The real bugger here is how to treat the crew, should they even be getting individual roomettes? This may date me, but I remember traveling Amtrak in the 80's and at that time, each attendant got two seats together in the Coach and that was it, and they were spread out throughout the train. I keep thinking about those Superliner crew transition dorms and wonder if the original thinking was to offer the extra space when other sleepers sold out. I know that the crew did not like the idea of sharing a car with passengers. Does anyone know how they are currently being used?
And I also wonder if it might be smarter now, to plan on multi-space type cars(like the transition dorms) for the future?
On most routes, although not all, the Superliner trans/dorms are selling rooms to the public. That was the original intention when those cars were built. In fact they were designed with that idea in mind, which is why they have an extra public shower. Only a few runs were ever made very early on where space was sold to the public. Then for years Amtrak hauled those cars around half empty. David Gunn saw the folly in that and rather quickly changed things such that again, on many routes rooms are indeed sold when needed.

And yes I would think that even single level dorms, if new ones are aquired, should have some provision for dividing the car and giving over part of the space to the public.
 
One, this equipment costs a lot of money. While one always does need to have some spares sitting around for bad ordered cars, one doesn't want to be paying off a loan on a car that ends up seeing only 15 to 20 runs a year. That's hardly productive.
Sure, but how accurately can Amtrak predict how big its fleet should be? Demand keeps growing, even without adding routes, and there's desire to add more routes, and multi-year lead times on cars that Amtrak can't cost effictively order one at a time. If Amtrak's goal were to buy enough cars so that the least frequently used cars saw 15 to 20 runs per year, I suspect what would actually happen is either that they'd have a bunch of cars that did fewer than 5 runs per year, or else they'd find that every car saw at least 100 runs per year, and it would be impossible to predict in advance which would happen.

(I'm also assuming for the sake of argument that cars would be sorted in some order, and used youngest-car-first or something; it's quite possible that in practice the non-peak trips would be spread out over the whole fleet such that you'd have 100 cars that each get 100 trips a year fewer than they could have been used for had Amtrak sold more tickets.)

But if Amtrak were going to replace all the Amfleet cars for non-peak use, would it make sense to keep the Amfleet coaches around for extra cars during peak times? I gather they haven't been too agressive about scrapping some of the other older equipment. Amtrak wouldn't be paying interest on the Amfleet cars at that point if the question is whether to scrap them or to keep them for 20 runs a year, but there probably are some maintenance costs that relate more to the number of calendar days that pass than the number of miles of track covered.

Third, you do add the sleeper because the existing ones sell out. Now you only sell one more room in the newly added sleeper, what do you do? Do you cancel that one reservation angering that person? Or do you run an empty car with one attendant for one passenger?
While this is not an entirely trivial problem, I think it's solvable.

Amtrak could reserve the right to change room numbers that have been assigned, and could call passengers looking for one who's willing to change the date of their travel in exchange for a voucher good for future Amtrak travel worth half (or something, I'm sure there's some manager who would would figure out what the minimum voucher value needed to actually find a willing passenger) of the accomodation charge, and then the passenger who was going to have a car to themselves could get whichever room was freed up.

(The other complication there is that if the one room that did sell in the last car is one of the bigger types, you may find that the people who buy those rooms are less easily persuaded by a small financial savings, given that they were able to afford the larger room in the first place. But if the reservation system only guarentees the smallest room at that point, that might still work out.)

Or adding the sleeper could be done only at times well in advance of the trip when Amtrak can be reasonably sure it will sell out.

Four, you do add the extra car of whatever type to the train. Now the car is someplace else and you don't have the passenger load needed to send it back to where it should be held. You now have to waste money dead heading it back.
I'm curious, does the Auto Train typically have the same load going in both directions all year round?

The other question is what Amtrak's purpose is.

If its purpose is to make a profit, then it obviously should only carry 2/3 (or much less, probably) of the passengers who wish to travel in the circumstances that happen to be most profitable for Amtrak. But that's obviously not its sole purpose, because most or all of its routes would be gone if profitability were Amtrak's sole purpose.

The reason we fund Amtrak must be that we believe that providing affordable train service to people who want to travel somehow benefits our country. Perhaps making Boston <-> NYC and NYC <-> Washington, DC travel easier for business travelers is good for economy. Or whatever. But whatever the argument is for subsidizing Amtrak, it's possible tha making passenger travel affordable and accessible to Americans includes those Americans who happen to want to make last minute reservations on peak volume trains.
 
Aloha

As Alan correctly pointed out the problems to add cars, but I sure wish Amtrak Management would do more to solve capacity problems. I at times feel upper management is way to typical of Government mentality, Just like the reputations of union managers.
 
Aloha
As Alan correctly pointed out the problems to add cars, but I sure wish Amtrak Management would do more to solve capacity problems. I at times feel upper management is way to typical of Government mentality, Just like the reputations of union managers.
Only one problem with this scenario; the Amtrak managers control where the money goes. I've yet to hear one Amtrak manager say "Boy, we should have thought that one out better!" (e.g., Express Trak that went no where and drained millions of bucks that could have bought revenue cars.)
 
Isn't it Amtrak's current head that said something to the effect of, if they had Acela to do again, they'd definitely do it differently?

Maybe not learning from experience, but certainly recognizing an error.
 
Isn't it Amtrak's current head that said something to the effect of, if they had Acela to do again, they'd definitely do it differently?
Maybe not learning from experience, but certainly recognizing an error.
I'm not sure if Kummant has said anything like that, but David Gun sure did. He thought that Acela was one of the worst, ill conceived ideas in a long time. Both in terms of the trains brought and their inflexibility to be lengthened for demmand, as well as the marketing of Acela and its name.
 
David Gunn was a man who spoke his mind, often to the wrong people at the wrong time, unfortunately.

There are a lot of problems with ordering new cars. Budd left the passenger car business a long time ago. In anycase, the Amfleet design has a lot of faults, the primary one being its durability-above-all-else design. They ride like a bucking bronco. So the next fleet of short distance single level coaches probably won't be Amfleet variations, especially not that truck type. There are other problems, as well. Nobody builds cars like Budd used to. Amtrak is more than aware of that (the Acela is a great demonstration of modern train engineering thoroughness and build quality- or lack thereof.) So whatever replaces the Amfleets probably won't have the durability to last 30+ years.

Second, the proper cars to replace them probably don't exist, although I might suggest a varient of the Comet VI. That would probably be ideal, since the design exists, is being produced, and the order could be piggybacked onto NJTs. Plus they are high-capacity bi-levels that fit into NYP. However, if they don't go with the Comet VI, there are no current US cars that are massproduction types that would work for them- nobody currently makes US-compatible high-level platform cars capable of fitting into NYP. Which means the car needs to be designed, tooling needs to be made, and that costs money. You can order 1 to 10 cars, which would be hand built prototypes like what Colorado Railcar tends to build. Or you can order several hundred. Tooling up to mass produce cars is a major part of the cost.

Third, cars are damned expensive. Sleepers cost in the range of $3-4 million, and coaches, diners, and lounges aren't much cheaper. And as I said, the minimum order for cars seems to be about 50. So we're talking about a minimum cost of several hundred million. Amtrak has made very clear, additinonally, its desire to minimize car types. Probably it will run bi-levels, and single levels.

But lastly, the huge problem is the lack of sure-fire funding. If Amtrak does this, they will probably order about 500 cars, which means over a billion dollars. They need to be damned sure that money is in the bank and allocated before they sign a contract. The Viewliners were needed, but also, in retrospect, were a mistake, primarily because they didn't have the money to make the number of Viewliners they needed. And they really have only a few choices of car builders (Kawasaki, Bombardier, and maybe Alstom), because they need to make sure the builder isn't going out of business if it catches a headcold, the way AmRail, Budd, and Pullman-Standard did. And because of their iffy finances, I suspect the builders are wary of doing business with them.
 
That was over five years ago, no?

Also, Bombardier didn't build the Comet Vs, Alstom did. And NJT has had no end of problems with them. Bad suspensions causing excessive rocking, vibration issues, seat wear issues, constant door failures, a few breaking windows due to vibration caused by improper glass securing, and more. I don't know about Amtrak, but were I running a railroad, I'd want none of it. Anyway, the Comet VIs are better cars, especially capacity-wise.
 
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That was over five years ago, no?
I think that the last of the cars arrived about three years ago. I know that the 2003 budget included money for a supplimental order, so I'm guessing that they arrived either in 2004 or 2005.

Also, Bombardier didn't build the Comet Vs, Alstom did. And NJT has had no end of problems with them. Bad suspensions causing excessive rocking, vibration issues, seat wear issues, constant door failures, a few breaking windows due to vibration caused by improper glass securing, and more. I don't know about Amtrak, but were I running a railroad, I'd want none of it. Anyway, the Comet VIs are better cars, especially capacity-wise.
First, the jury is still out on the Bi-levels. They frankly haven't been in service long enough to see if they will hold up any better than the Comet V's.

Second, the Comet VI's are virtually useless to Amtrak. As a coach car you'd have severe issues with luggage, you'd almost have to devote the entire mid-level areas to nothing more than a walkway and luggage racks. For a cafe car it might work, beyond the afforementioned luggage problem for passengers seating on the upper level. And the cars definately won't work as sleepers, unless Amtrak does away with the upper bunks.
 
Third, cars are damned expensive. Sleepers cost in the range of $3-4 million, and coaches, diners, and lounges aren't much cheaper.
I'm skeptical that an Amtrak coach is anywhere near as expensive per passenger mile over its lifetime as the typical automobile owned by the typical American.

If you assume that for the average track mile it covers, an Amtrak coach is loaded with 30 passengers, and the automobile is loaded with one, then a $3 million coach is equivalent to a $100,000 automobile if they last for the same number of passenger miles. Of course, automobiles are typically a lot cheaper than $100,000, but enough automobiles to last as many calendar years as that $3 million coach will last probably cost well over $50,000, and I bet that coach tends to get way more than double the daily mileage that the typical automobile does.

Then again, the automobile comes with the scaled down equivalent of a P42, and I neglected to factor that into the previous paragraph.
 
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