Will Amtrak try to add cars if they see trains sold out in the future?

[Green Maned Lion]

As are the Superliner IIs.

I doubt Crescent ATN has been to NYP. Had he been to NYP, the impossibility of this would be apparent. In order to do this, they'd have to buy the MSG, and OPP. Then they'd have to knock them down. Then they'd have to raise the roof of a station thats close to 100 years old. By removing the entire station. Forget about buying more land in Manhattan. Moving the station to the Farley Building was knocked down on cost, and thats just rebuilding and rennovating a building 300 feet away that the tracks already run through. This would be a multi-billion dollar project, and those multi billion dollars could give Amtrak enough Amfleet replacements, Viewliners, and Superliners to meet every single route expansion NARP has ever dreamed about.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

As are the Superliner IIs.
I doubt Crescent ATN has been to NYP. Had he been to NYP, the impossibility of this would be apparent. In order to do this, they'd have to buy the MSG, and OPP. Then they'd have to knock them down. Then they'd have to raise the roof of a station thats close to 100 years old. By removing the entire station. Forget about buying more land in Manhattan. Moving the station to the Farley Building was knocked down on cost, and thats just rebuilding and rennovating a building 300 feet away that the tracks already run through. This would be a multi-billion dollar project, and those multi billion dollars could give Amtrak enough Amfleet replacements, Viewliners, and Superliners to meet every single route expansion NARP has ever dreamed about.

I wasn't suggesting anything along those lines. I was thinking about digging out the floor of the station and tunnels and lowering the platforms to the new level. This could be done in segments so it wouldn't require a shutdown of the tunnels or station. Work will have to be done NYP in the future to raise capacity to meet future demands so something will eventually have to be done. Digging might involve relocating utilites but I doubt it would be as hard as creating a new station. Tunnels have been built under buildings for years it seems like the most logical solution to the space and height restriction problems.

I have been in and through NYP a number of times on the Cresecent, Regional and Acela.

 

[PRR 60]

...I was thinking about digging out the floor of the station and tunnels and lowering the platforms to the new level. This could be done in segments so it wouldn't require a shutdown of the tunnels or station.

Fot the reasons I stated above, the track level in the Hudson River tunnels cannot be lowered.

 

[GG-1]

...I was thinking about digging out the floor of the station and tunnels and lowering the platforms to the new level. This could be done in segments so it wouldn't require a shutdown of the tunnels or station.

Fot the reasons I stated above, the track level in the Hudson River tunnels cannot be lowered.

Aloha

There is an excellent book about NY Penn Station that details the construction of the Tunnels and the Station. The title is something like "Pennsylvania Station and Tunnels" Author is I think Fred Westing

 

[jis]

I wasn't suggesting anything along those lines. I was thinking about digging out the floor of the station and tunnels and lowering the platforms to the new level. This could be done in segments so it wouldn't require a shutdown of the tunnels or station. Work will have to be done NYP in the future to raise capacity to meet future demands so something will eventually have to be done. Digging might involve relocating utilites but I doubt it would be as hard as creating a new station. Tunnels have been built under buildings for years it seems like the most logical solution to the space and height restriction problems.

And what good will it do to get more headroom in the station when you still can't get anything taller into the station through any of its approaches? AFAIK the Empire Connection tunnel also has pretty much the same height restrictions as any of the other approaches into NYP. 14'6" is it.

The new tunnels under the Hudson as currently proposed will be able to accommodate somewhat taller equipment, but they will not connect into the current Penn Station according to the latest Supplementary DEIS.

 

[AlanB]

AFAIK the Empire Connection tunnel also has pretty much the same height restrictions as any of the other approaches into NYP. 14'6" is it.

If that is indeed true, then that was a very silly and stupid decision on Amtrak's part. Yes, it may never be possible/practical to fix things within the station and the other approach tunnels, but to not build a new tunnel with today's normal clearances is just silly.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

...I was thinking about digging out the floor of the station and tunnels and lowering the platforms to the new level. This could be done in segments so it wouldn't require a shutdown of the tunnels or station.

Fot the reasons I stated above, the track level in the Hudson River tunnels cannot be lowered.

Aloha

There is an excellent book about NY Penn Station that details the construction of the Tunnels and the Station. The title is something like "Pennsylvania Station and Tunnels" Author is I think Fred Westing

New tunnels could be made and sunk into the river bed and the rest of the tunnel system be dug out along with all the other tunnels in and out of NYP.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

:huh:

Do you have any clue what that would COST? The North River tunnels were a major engineering feat, one of PRRs many demonstrations of its might as a railroad to overcome the seemingly impossible. Building a tunnel under the Hudson would cost billions, all by itself. Raising the clearance in a place as huge as Penn station would cost additional billions. And for what?

To allow Amtrak, a small company (Think about this: it sees fewer riders in a year than NYC's subway sees in a week) the ability to buy a single set of equipment? And save a few million a year in maintaining and servicing equipment? Plus a tad more flexibility? And remember, Amtrak operating long distance trains isn't a given.

If and when NJT gets THE Tunnel built, Amtrak will have more than enough capacity in Penn. Also, LIRR is talking about transferring some of its service to GCT.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

:huh:
Do you have any clue what that would COST? The North River tunnels were a major engineering feat, one of PRRs many demonstrations of its might as a railroad to overcome the seemingly impossible. Building a tunnel under the Hudson would cost billions, all by itself. Raising the clearance in a place as huge as Penn station would cost additional billions. And for what?

To allow Amtrak, a small company (Think about this: it sees fewer riders in a year than NYC's subway sees in a week) the ability to buy a single set of equipment? And save a few million a year in maintaining and servicing equipment? Plus a tad more flexibility? And remember, Amtrak operating long distance trains isn't a given.

If and when NJT gets THE Tunnel built, Amtrak will have more than enough capacity in Penn. Also, LIRR is talking about transferring some of its service to GCT.

At some point those tunnels and the entire platform/track/loading area in NYP will have to be redone. It would be easier now than in the future when NYC is bigger and more populated and when costs would be even higher. This is just one of the many examples where Amtrak and Congress focus on the short term day to day operation and not to the future. A lack of planning for the future is what is hurting Amtrak the most. If you know something is going to need to be replaced start looking for ways to do it even if its 10-20-30 or more years down the road. As far as the car situation goes an order should have been made long ago, I seriously wonder where they think they are going to get equipment for all these new services that are being studied, unless they plan on forcing the states that are supporting it to buy the equipment? If Amtrak keeps being run on the don't plan ahead wait until something is completely worn out or catastrophically fails we may see a day when the NEC shuts down for a few years because of a flood in the tunnels. I know they're built to last but they are 101 years old there needs to be some sort of plan if a problem is seen during an inspection and it becomes obvious that replacement is required. Amtrak and Congress need to work together to make a long term passenger rail plan that is constantly updated and tweaked as time goes on and set up an emergency reserve of funds in the case of such a disaster as tunnel flooding. I just feel like Amtrak has no interest in preparing itself for the future and is only concerned with the short term.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The likelyhood of those tunnels flooding is not all that high- they are a good distance under the river floor. Amtrak would love to have new equipment. Hundreds of new sleepers, coaches, diners, lounges, and so on. But Bush has kept asking for Amtrak to get nothing, or half, or a quarter, of what it needs, in order to operate. They are thinking short term, because they keep thinking, are we gonna be around for our 40th birthday?

 

[amtrakwolverine]

The likelyhood of those tunnels flooding is not all that high- they are a good distance under the river floor. Amtrak would love to have new equipment. Hundreds of new sleepers, coaches, diners, lounges, and so on. But Bush has kept asking for Amtrak to get nothing, or half, or a quarter, of what it needs, in order to operate. They are thinking short term, because they keep thinking, are we gonna be around for our 40th birthday?

they made it this far and with rider ship up they should be around longer sense they got a 5 year funding or something like that. maybe the next president will be Amtrak friendly

 

[AlanB]

The likelyhood of those tunnels flooding is not all that high- they are a good distance under the river floor. Amtrak would love to have new equipment. Hundreds of new sleepers, coaches, diners, lounges, and so on. But Bush has kept asking for Amtrak to get nothing, or half, or a quarter, of what it needs, in order to operate. They are thinking short term, because they keep thinking, are we gonna be around for our 40th birthday?

they made it this far and with rider ship up they should be around longer sense they got a 5 year funding or something like that. maybe the next president will be Amtrak friendly

The 5 year plan has not passed through Congress as of yet, and even if it does, Bush will almost certainly veto it unless Congress can hitch it to some other item (like maybe the war in Iraq) that Bush can't afford to veto.

Even if it does pass and get signed into law, it is still just a plan and a promise to consider actually providing Amtrak with the monies outlined in the plan. Each year of the plan, Congress still has to actually approve to spend the money in the plan.

Don't get me wrong, I support the plan. It helps to keep Amtrak in the minds of the politicians, makes it a bit harder for them to cut funding, and it will help Amtrak to do some tentative long range planning. But again, it doesn't guarantee that Amtrak is getting anything, not even a dime.

 

[AlanB]

If and when NJT gets THE Tunnel built, Amtrak will have more than enough capacity in Penn. Also, LIRR is talking about transferring some of its service to GCT.

THE Tunnel won't help capcity all that much in Penn. NJT isn't planning to give up sending trains to Penn when THE Tunnel gets built, NJT plans to start sending still more trains into NY City. Trains from the Raritan line, the Bergen line, the Main line, and the Pascak Valley line into NYC. Those trains will take up most of the capacity afforded by the new station that NJT plans to build. Therefore NJT will still want all the current capacity that they have at Penn for Midtown Direct, NJ Coast, and the NE Corridor.

Of course NJT may not necessarily send the trains to those respective destinations as I've outlined, but the point is that NJT doesn't plan to give up most of the slots that they currently have at Penn. They plan to keep them in addition to the new slots afforded by the new tunnels and the new station.

And the LIRR isn't giving up all that many slots either if and when they actually finish the East Side Access project to bring LIRR trains into GCT. The LIRR expects to increase service into NYC also, and what slots they aren't going to use at Penn are being considered for selected Metro North trains from the Hudson and New Haven divisions to use.

 

[AlanB]

:huh:
Do you have any clue what that would COST? The North River tunnels were a major engineering feat, one of PRRs many demonstrations of its might as a railroad to overcome the seemingly impossible. Building a tunnel under the Hudson would cost billions, all by itself. Raising the clearance in a place as huge as Penn station would cost additional billions. And for what?

To allow Amtrak, a small company (Think about this: it sees fewer riders in a year than NYC's subway sees in a week) the ability to buy a single set of equipment? And save a few million a year in maintaining and servicing equipment? Plus a tad more flexibility? And remember, Amtrak operating long distance trains isn't a given.

If and when NJT gets THE Tunnel built, Amtrak will have more than enough capacity in Penn. Also, LIRR is talking about transferring some of its service to GCT.

At some point those tunnels and the entire platform/track/loading area in NYP will have to be redone. It would be easier now than in the future when NYC is bigger and more populated and when costs would be even higher. This is just one of the many examples where Amtrak and Congress focus on the short term day to day operation and not to the future. A lack of planning for the future is what is hurting Amtrak the most. If you know something is going to need to be replaced start looking for ways to do it even if its 10-20-30 or more years down the road. As far as the car situation goes an order should have been made long ago, I seriously wonder where they think they are going to get equipment for all these new services that are being studied, unless they plan on forcing the states that are supporting it to buy the equipment? If Amtrak keeps being run on the don't plan ahead wait until something is completely worn out or catastrophically fails we may see a day when the NEC shuts down for a few years because of a flood in the tunnels. I know they're built to last but they are 101 years old there needs to be some sort of plan if a problem is seen during an inspection and it becomes obvious that replacement is required. Amtrak and Congress need to work together to make a long term passenger rail plan that is constantly updated and tweaked as time goes on and set up an emergency reserve of funds in the case of such a disaster as tunnel flooding. I just feel like Amtrak has no interest in preparing itself for the future and is only concerned with the short term.

I agree with GML, you're talking about Billions of dollars. Dollars that IMHO would be wasted.

Yes, at some point those tunnels may need to be redone. But I believe that we are many, many years away from that. If your replacing something like a tunnel that needs replacing and is maybe 10 to 15 years away from possible failure, sure it makes sense to start doing it now. To start replacing something that may well last another 50 to 100 years, if not more, at this time doesn't make sense. Yes it will cost more to actually replace it in the future, but over the long term it is still more wasteful and costly to start replacing it now.

As for Penn, they are constantly replacing track and switches and repairing the platforms. That however is nothing like the costs that would be incurred by trying to lower track levels and/or raise platforms and the ceiling to get taller trains into the station. The costs of this type of project would far outstrip the costs associated by maintaining a single level fleet and a bi-level fleet. It simply doesn't make sense for Amtrak to ever consider this idea.

Now yes, I agree that Amtrak needs to be thinking long term and not just short term. But their long term planning needs to be in things like new cars, better catenary, better service, more trains to more places and more frequent service to places. Spending billions to get Superliner sized cars into Penn IMHO should never be part of the plan, but if it is to be in the plan, then it needs to be the very last thing in the plan. Only when all of the other things that I've mentioned have been completed, should Amtrak start to look at changing Penn to get full height bi-levels into the station, if indeed a need for such improvements can be proved.