Will commuter rail regain popularity again?

[Tlcooper44]

Chicago and Boston both have suburbs that are built at the same density as the city. I think they'd be great candidates for suburb-to-suburb service.

While this is semi-true in Boston, I can tell you that the majority of stops outside the city are not like this. Once you are out the station, you really need a car (with the exception of Concord, Framingham, Providence, and Worcester).

In terms of ridership, MBTA is definitely showing upward trents, suggesting a return to pre-covid numbers could be in the future.

 

[neroden]

While this is semi-true in Boston, I can tell you that the majority of stops outside the city are not like this. Once you are out the station, you really need a car (with the exception of Concord, Framingham, Providence, and Worcester).

In terms of ridership, MBTA is definitely showing upward trents, suggesting a return to pre-covid numbers could be in the future.

Well, there are a bunch of close-in places in Boston which most people wouldn't think of as "suburbs", but which are technically suburbs, "inside I-95", where you don't need a car. I mean, IIRC Cambridge and Somerville are denser than Boston. They lack circle routes which bypass downtown; the #1 bus is constantly delayed. They should have such routes.

Once you get outside the 95 beltway the dense urbanity ends in most directions (there's some more to the southeast in the Quincy area), but there's a lot inside that radius.

Something similar is going on in DC, where everything inside the Purple Line route is pretty dense. In Chicago, there's a similar pattern, though I couldn't pinpoint the boundary line.

There's such a boundary in Philadelphia too.

New York City is weirder, because as you head into New Jersey, Connecticut, and Long Island, there are areas which are just as dense as Queens but which have been so car-oriented that you can't walk from one place to the next; some urban fabric repair would make them more manageable.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Well, there are a bunch of close-in places in Boston which most people wouldn't think of as "suburbs", but which are technically suburbs, "inside I-95", where you don't need a car. I mean, IIRC Cambridge and Somerville are denser than Boston. They lack circle routes which bypass downtown; the #1 bus is constantly delayed. They should have such routes.

Once you get outside the 95 beltway the dense urbanity ends in most directions (there's some more to the southeast in the Quincy area), but there's a lot inside that radius.

Something similar is going on in DC, where everything inside the Purple Line route is pretty dense. In Chicago, there's a similar pattern, though I couldn't pinpoint the boundary line.

There's such a boundary in Philadelphia too.

New York City is weirder, because as you head into New Jersey, Connecticut, and Long Island, there are areas which are just as dense as Queens but which have been so car-oriented that you can't walk from one place to the next; some urban fabric repair would make them more manageable.

I live in Cambridge (ride the 1 bus every day), and grew up in Lincoln (just outside the 128 loop), and while any town that is connected to the MBTA trains has an easy commute (relatively speaking), much of the inner loop metro area is really not livable without a car. Towns like Belmont, Waltham and Lexington have MBTA service in their center, but there are too many streets and parts that don't have easy connectivity to either a railway station or a subway line.

Most of the commuter rail lines have only a few stops inside the 128 loop (with the exception of the Worcester Line). There has been a proposed outer loop rail line, but I doubt it will ever happen.

Essentially, I'm not sure suburb to suburb service would make sense with the MBTA without major restructuring.

 

[neroden]

Major restructuring is what's planned, though. TransitMatters has actually convinced the MBTA to go to all-day every-day service and prioritize the inside-the-loop stations (first Fairmount, then Salem, Newtonville/Wellesley, others to follow). With the restructuring of MBTA commuter rail as urban rail within the 128 loop, suburb to suburb service starts to seem plausible.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Major restructuring is what's planned, though. TransitMatters has actually convinced the MBTA to go to all-day every-day service and prioritize the inside-the-loop stations (first Fairmount, then Salem, Newtonville/Wellesley, others to follow). With the restructuring of MBTA commuter rail as urban rail within the 128 loop, suburb to suburb service starts to seem plausible.

Yeah, I remember them discussing this on one of their open zoom conferences.
I'm not sure as to what you mean by the MBTA being convinced by this plan. You mind showing where the MBTA has included this in their plans?

TransitMatters has great stuff and ideas. If the MBTA can electrify the network (they are in talks with Alstom about purchasing some EMU's and have even visited the plant out west to get a test train for the Providence Line) then I think this is possible. I don't see it happening for at least 20 years however.

 

[MIrailfan]

I think the gasoline price rise will bring back commuter service.

 

[neroden]

MBTA Fiscal Control Board actually voted to implement the "regional rail" plan. You can find the articles if you look. Huge win. Still going to take time, obviously.

They're already redoing the schedules on the Fitchburg line for almost-clockface service. You can find those articles from very recently. They're actually committed.

 

[Tlcooper44]

They're already redoing the schedules on the Fitchburg line for almost-clockface service. You can find those articles from very recently. They're actually committed.

Just checked out the new May 3 schedule this morning. I was under the impression that the Fitchburg Line was down for the installation of PTC. Perhaps now that it is installed, more trains can run to fulfill this new schedule?

 

[AFS1970]

The biggest problem with suburb to suburb service is the reliance on hub and spoke plans for many transit systems. The second factor is infrastructure related.

In my area of Connecticut we have MNRR commuter rail out of NYC, which is very much hub and spoke. I live on the New Haven Line, which has three spur lines. New Canaan which is a dead end. Danbury which is not a dead end but plans to run service to parts of NY sate have never been realized. Waterbury which is also not a dead end. However just because the tracks go somewhere after the last station, does not mean they offer an easy route to another spoke. Once in New Haven you can transfer to Shore Line East for a few more stops or to the relatively new CT Rail Hartford line. But again if you wanted to go from Hartford to Waterbury, it would be faster and probably cheaper to drive.

Some places have sort of solved this with bus routes. In Stamford we have CT Transit, which is again hub and spoke from the train station. So getting from spoke to spoke requires a trip downtown to transfer. In some cases it would be faster to walk, but of course not all streets have sidewalks. The next closest but service is Norwalk which has WHEELS, they operate on a hub and loop system, all busses come from the central hub but all routes are loops. For those unfamiliar with the system, this means if a street has service in both directions they will be on different routes.

Like the lack of tracks between many spokes, in the suburban part of my city many of the roads would not be the best for busses to try and make the crossing. So even if they wanted to do loops or even a cross spoke connector, this may not be feasible. We do have tow loops that late at night and on weekends convert into a single loop but that is due to low ridership.

 

[Willbridge]

We'll get some answers on this question later this week when the petroleum delivery gap gets to the NEC cities. The north end of the corridor isn't on the missing pipeline link but it'll be squeezed to shift some supplies southward.

In regard to the S-bahn concept, that's basically what Denver commuter rail is. It's hard to know how it's working out as openings were delayed and delayed by being the first PTC-from-opening-day system. The most recent line opened with all the VIP's wearing face masks. I rode the N-Line last Monday after lunch and most riders were suburb to suburb. Trains and the feeder buses are run on weekend schedules for the pandemic.

 

[20th Century Rider]

Seattle's Sounder Service makes the case for the future of urban rail transit... I've taken it many times... it connects literally everything important in the Seattle metro area.

It connects major colleges and universities with everywhere one needs to go... shopping areas, airports, Amtrak and etc etc
It connects Amtrak with the airport
It connects the central business district with neighboring areas
It connects ethnic areas with their attractive restaurants and business - with each other
Transit stops have spurned hotels / apartments / housing / shopping in the immediate vicinity

The same can be said about Portland's MAX.

By connecting all the great amenities of a large urban area... including shopping, transportation, recreational facilities, parks, zoos, museums, hospitals, educational institutions, ethnic districts, sports venues, etc. urban rail is certainly here to stay and I don't think work commuting patterns will change all the good that comes from urban rail systems.

Do check out the urbanrail.net > metro - subway - light rail website for all the marvels of urban rail systems in cities worldwide. It provides endless success stories brought by urban rail systems.

https://www.urbanrail.net/index.html

 

[Ziv]

Wow. Anecdotal evidence is always questionable but when I was in New York last month the 1, 3, A and M lines were close to full every time I rode them during the day. But I didn't ride after 7 pm or so. Maybe Manhattan is the busier, faster recovering section of the MTA?

NY MTA stats show that subway ridership is still down about 2/3 (about 1/3 of normal). The two MTA commuter railroads are down about 3/4 (only 1/4 of normal). And MTA bus is a little under 1/2 of normal ridership.

 

[Eric S]

Wow. Anecdotal evidence is always questionable but when I was in New York last month the 1, 3, A and M lines were close to full every time I rode them during the day. But I didn't ride after 7 pm or so. Maybe Manhattan is the busier, faster recovering section of the MTA?

My comment was from 10 months ago. Not sure how numbers look now.

EDIT: I'd also add that it's also possible that less service (fewer buses, fewer and/or shorter trains) is being operated than 2+ years ago so it could still look quite full but have fewer riders. Not unlike our favorite US national intercity passenger rail operator.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

While this is semi-true in Boston, I can tell you that the majority of stops outside the city are not like this. Once you are out the station, you really need a car (with the exception of Concord, Framingham, Providence, and Worcester).

In terms of ridership, MBTA is definitely showing upward trents, suggesting a return to pre-covid numbers could be in the future.

Also true of Chicago, lots of inner ring and and suburbs along train lines are dense, and some lines end in dense outer cities (Elgin, Aurora, etc), however, the rail may not be near job centers - or enough of them.

personally, I agree and think the problem goes far deeper than this. Boston is such a great city in part because of its success stopping further car infrastructure, and removing it (the big dig).

Interestingly, also true to a certain degree of Chicago - the metro area has fewer expressways than a lot of other metro areas do.

For the moment, Metra is holding on, however, a lot of people are unwilling to commute via the L - it's perceived as being very unsafe right now across the city - I have friends who are planning on leaving if the crime can't be brought under control or won't take the train after being attacked or in situations where they would have had no escape had something happened - and several of these are people of color. Over the past few years, beginning pre-covid, I've been seeing more black families in the outer western and northwestern suburbs which wouldn't have been seen ten years ago. Before then black middle-income families would have moved to a few inner western suburbs or the south suburbs almost exclusively, but as they suburbs have diversified, they are moving further afield.

 

[west point]

Good points. So I can fly into PDX airport. Take MX down to Portland Union Station. Take a train to Klamath Falls or Salem. That is what can work.

 

[MARC Rider]

however, the rail may not be near job centers - or enough of them.

Which means more job centers need to be built near rail stations.

 

[John from RI]

Many years ago, I made a personal decision about my life that I did not want the stress of driving back and forth to work each day. For most of the time I commuted by train. In the morning I would have breakfast and read my newspaper. In the evening I would read a book or take a nap. On the whole commuting by train was not faster than driving and often driving would have saved me some time. But commuting by train was much less stressful and also less expensive. For mean it meant my wife and I shared one car instead of having 2 cars. Never ever have I regretted my decision to commute by train.
But I am unusual. Most Americans drive to work and don't want to change.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Many years ago, I made a personal decision about my life that I did not want the stress of driving back and forth to work each day. For most of the time I commuted by train. In the morning I would have breakfast and read my newspaper. In the evening I would read a book or take a nap. On the whole commuting by train was not faster than driving and often driving would have saved me some time. But commuting by train was much less stressful and also less expensive. For mean it meant my wife and I shared one car instead of having 2 cars. Never ever have I regretted my decision to commute by train.
But I am unusual. Most Americans drive to work and don't want to change.

To be fair, many Americans don't have access to good commuter rail systems.
I'm guessing you used either Metro North or MBTA seeing as you're from RI? Shot in the dark.

 

[cirdan]

Essentially, I'm not sure suburb to suburb service would make sense with the MBTA without major restructuring.

In my opinion, the way many cities are structured, suburb to suburb services would be best served by buses, or at best light rail or streetcars. In other than maybe a few special cases I don't see the costs of heavy rail commuter trains being justifed.

 

[pennyk]

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep the posts in this thread on the topic of whether commuter rail will regain popularity. Off topic and responses to off topic posts have been removed.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Many years ago, I made a personal decision about my life that I did not want the stress of driving back and forth to work each day. For most of the time I commuted by train. In the morning I would have breakfast and read my newspaper. In the evening I would read a book or take a nap. On the whole commuting by train was not faster than driving and often driving would have saved me some time. But commuting by train was much less stressful and also less expensive. For mean it meant my wife and I shared one car instead of having 2 cars. Never ever have I regretted my decision to commute by train.
But I am unusual. Most Americans drive to work and don't want to change.

When I lived in the Philadelphia suburbs I tried commuting from my home in Swarthmore Delaware County to my job in North Wales both located on Regional Rail fairly convenient to stations. Unfortunately it just took too much time over 2 1/2 hours vs. 1 hour typically for driving, since it involved going into center city and changing trains then the long trip back out. Once the Blue Route (I-476) was completed the car commute got even shorter. For a while I even tried driving to Radnor and taking the High Speed line to Norristown then a bus from there to North Wales. But since I still had to drive part of the way it didn't seem worth it. I think I did it more as an excuse to ride the "bullet" cars on the NHSL.

 

[MARC Rider]

I don't know what's happening with commuter rail, but I had the opportunity to ride the T in Boston (Red Line and Green Line) at abut 4 PM the other day, and I would say that the rush hour ridership seems to be recovering. The new Red Line cars are nice, by the way.

 

[west point]

New York Post article saying ridership starting Monday very high increase in ridership.

'Booming' LIRR and Metro-North commuters return to Manhattan (nypost.com)

If this holds up then at least for NYC ridership will meet pre C-19 numbers ?

 

[Tlcooper44]

New York Post article saying ridership starting Monday very high increase in ridership.

'Booming' LIRR and Metro-North commuters return to Manhattan (nypost.com)

If this holds up then at least for NYC ridership will meet pre C-19 numbers ?

I don't know what's happening with commuter rail, but I had the opportunity to ride the T in Boston (Red Line and Green Line) at abut 4 PM the other day, and I would say that the rush hour ridership seems to be recovering. The new Red Line cars are nice, by the way.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the MBTA Commuter rail.
While ridership is more than double what is was last year, it is truly struggling to come back.

Red Line ridership is nearly half of what it used to be.
When I rode pre pandemic, it was almost impossible to get a seat any time of day; standing room only.
Now, that's a rare occurrence. Thankfully, they are back to running 4 minute frequencies though.

 

[Cal]

Thankfully, they are back to running 4 minute frequencies though.

Meanwhile here in LA we're still going with 15 minute frequencies at 5:30PM on the the Red and Purple lines which are some of the most used subway lines in the nation.