Will full service dining ever return to the Western trains?

[Willbridge]

Trying to 'rebrand' service to fit millennials for LD trains is a fool's errand. LD trains inherently cannot depend on the business of people whose jobs provide, at best, two weeks annual vacation. We hardly ever took LD trains back when my husband and I were both working full-time jobs with limited vacation time--that time was simply too precious to spend several days of it on slow trains. The US is unique among industrialized countries in its norms of extremely limited paid vacation time, and businesses compound that by making it difficult to take even unpaid leave. So, depending on the trade of folks in their prime earning years is not a winning business model.

That leaves two classes of travelers for LD trains--one of which are people in rural areas not well-served, or in many cases served at all, by buses and planes. Those folks are the mainstay of LD coach travel, and with the continuing degradation of bus and plane service to fly-over country, I would presume that this market isn't going away in the post-pandemic future. The other class are those who ride the trains but have the luxury of having plenty of time for train travel--and yes, a lot of them are retirees. Somehow Amtrak seems to think that once they all die off, that group will disappear, but I would imagine that the next generation of retirees that replaces them would be a fertile market for LD train service--as long as the experience in the sleepers and dining cars is an attractive one. After all, the scenery and relaxation are not going away--and Amtrak has no way to degrade them!

Good observation regarding retirees. In 1971 when Amtrak started up the critics explained that soon the old folks who remembered fine service would die off and then so would the demand for long-distance train travel. Instead, every year there were new retirees! And they wanted to go places.

 

[Willbridge]

Come on. Who was riding the big name trains with fine dining. Retired middle class like today? Students? No. It was mostly well heeled and business executive types. And even then the private railroads lost big money on passenger service once the airlines came in. It's so silly to compare Amtrak to trains like the 20'th Century Limited when you look at the clientele of each. Amtrak is here to provide transportation to the masses. Now I agree there is a middle ground that Amtrak should be offering to it's Sleeper passengers, but they have to get that food mandate changed by Congress.

Yes, the railroads marketed their passenger service to business people as a way of attracting freight business. The implication was that the company as a whole would be good to deal with. Here's a sample:

 

[west point]

Dinning service may return if Covid-19 is ever solved. Until then forget it !

 

[Willbridge]

I think that is exaggerated except for some single night trains such as the Broadway and 20th Century which did cater to business travel. Otherwise, there were a lot of middle class and ordinary folk traveling by long distance trains before the airplane era and it was certainly not all business travel. Some by sleeper and many more by coach. Much business was done rather tediously through the U.S. Mail and not by business travel . If you look at the railroad menus from the 1950s, $2.50 as I recall would be a high price for a good dining car meal on a named train. That would be about $24.00 today. Hardly an extravagant expense.

I rode on a number of long distance trains in the late 1960s and the 1970s, usually by coach. I normally ate full meals in the dining car and there was never a question about whether coach passengers were welcome in the dining car. We were always welcome. in earlier years there were some trains which had separate dining cars for sleeping car passengers and coach passengers but I think they were gone by the late 1960s.

In the summer and around winter holidays there were trains that split into two sections, by class, even in the 1960's. HOWEVER, full meals were offered in the Coach section diner or cafe cars, comparable to today's fast-casual restaurant dining. I posted a couple of samples previously.

 

[Willbridge]

To those who think the diner is no longer a necessity, I would ask, why then did every railroad carry a diner if its so unnecessary. I used to ride to Chicago from St. Louis quite often. The GM&O managed to carry a full service diner and quite well prepared food, and that was for a six hour or less trip. Santa Fe as has been noted refused to down grade their amenities for the sake of saving some money. I guess its just a whole world of changes that have made the idea of long distance rail almost a forgotten mode of travel. And yet when you depart a city like Chicago there can easily be hundreds of people boarding, so its mostly the fact that the rail systems in our nation haven't begun to hold a candle to what other nations have accomplished, and most of them offer some consist with very elegant dining still.

The attached GM&O menu card is from the Abraham Lincoln in 1967. I haven't looked up a cost of living adjustment, but a local transit cash fare in many mid-sized cities today is about 7 times the price in 1967 as a comparison.

 

[toddinde]

I think that is exaggerated except for some single night trains such as the Broadway and 20th Century which did cater to business travel. Otherwise, there were a lot of middle class and ordinary folk traveling by long distance trains before the airplane era and it was certainly not all business travel. Some by sleeper and many more by coach. Much business was done rather tediously through the U.S. Mail and not by business travel . If you look at the railroad menus from the 1950s, $2.50 as I recall would be a high price for a good dining car meal on a named train. That would be about $24.00 today. Hardly an extravagant expense.

I rode on a number of long distance trains in the late 1960s and the 1970s, usually by coach. I normally ate full meals in the dining car and there was never a question about whether coach passengers were welcome in the dining car. We were always welcome. in earlier years there were some trains which had separate dining cars for sleeping car passengers and coach passengers but I think they were gone by the late 1960s.

The Super Chief/El Capitan had separate diners well into the Amtrak era. It’s an acknowledged fact that the loss of expense account travel killed Pullman. Of course there was a lot of other business. That was SP’s argument in moving away from diners to hamburger grill cars. There are always a lot of reasons people travel. The railroads loss of the business traveler had a profound impact.

 

[Larry H.]

Good observation regarding retirees. In 1971 when Amtrak started up the critics explained that soon the old folks who remembered fine service would die off and then so would the demand for long-distance train travel. Instead, every year there were new retirees! And they wanted to go places.

If the powers that be hadn't slashed the routes by two thirds after they took over the passenger levels would be many times what they say Long Distance would draw to day.. A few routes are just not a way to determine what the demand for rail service is. If the connections aren't there you can't go.

 

[jruff001]

Just to clarify... what’s the leisure activity?

Travel?
Dining Cars?
Sleeping cars?
Long distance trains?

First Class travel.

 

[jiml]

Instead, every year there were new retirees! And they wanted to go places.

Funny how that works, and it's been a problem for governments ever since.

 

[tonys96]

Conversely, I wonder what percentage of posters here have ever worked for Amtrak or had to be responsible for managing something within Congressionally-mandated budget restrictions.

Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.

Editing to add: I don't expect a hotel to provide three meals / day for no extra charge.

The dining is simply not free for sleeping car pax. Please get your facts right.

 

[jruff001]

The dining is simply not free for sleeping car pax. Please get your facts right.

Where did I say dining is free for sleeping car passengers?

 

[tonys96]

It is generally not a good use of taxpayer money to fund or subsidize what is basically a leisure activity of the relatively wealthy.

Like making business "three martini lunch" 100% deductible?

 

[tonys96]

Where did I say dining is free for sleeping car passengers?

Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.


And, exactly what is "first class travel" on Amtrak?

 

[Rasputin]

The Super Chief/El Capitan had separate diners well into the Amtrak era. It’s an acknowledged fact that the loss of expense account travel killed Pullman. Of course there was a lot of other business. That was SP’s argument in moving away from diners to hamburger grill cars. There are always a lot of reasons people travel. The railroads loss of the business traveler had a profound impact.

I want to apologize for my previous post because it was somewhat off base. The topic which was raised was the decline of Pullman business and my response was directed at the situation of long distance train service not just Pullman business. On thinking of this further I agree that especially the one-night overnight trains did suffer quite a loss as business travel was lost to airlines, the private automobile and even to buses. I think the longer transcontinental trains fared a bit better in this change.

 

[jruff001]

Like making business "three martini lunch" 100% deductible?

A little different (tax deduction vs. direct cash subsidy), but yes, "three martini lunches" should not be deductible.

 

[jruff001]

And, exactly what is "first class travel" on Amtrak?

If you have a point to make please make it, or if you disagree with me please feel free to explain.

I am open to changing my mind but so far you are being less than persuasive.

 

[Nick Farr]

We do realize Amtrak is trying to kill off LD trains, right? If Amtrak ever gets privatized, they would have been eliminated already.

I don't think they have the flexibility to change staffing levels either. I actually don't see why each sleeper car requires it's own SCA. You could cut losses and retain food service by cross training service staff.

I don't think demand will fall off a cliff just because of the dining options. Like the postal service, Amtrak doesn't have the flexibility to make adjustments to the service that might make it profitable.

 

[20th Century Rider]

The attached GM&O menu card is from the Abraham Lincoln in 1967. I haven't looked up a cost of living adjustment, but a local transit cash fare in many mid-sized cities today is about 7 times the price in 1967 as a comparison.

View attachment 18347

View attachment 18348

That was when zipping along on those comfortable smooth gliding trains was fun & the food delicious!!!

 

[20th Century Rider]

Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.


And, exactly what is "first class travel" on Amtrak?

There is no actual first class travel on Amtrak today! What exists is a dilapidated version of what it once was.

 

[tonys96]

As we all know, this business of claiming the " gummint" is subsidizing dining cars is a strawman. The "gummint" sibsudizes ALL travel in America, in one way or another, from our great interstate Hiway system to the TSA and air traffic control system, to airport grants, to all commuter rail.
Even Amtrak coach is subsidized.
Saying diners are "first class" and for the recreation if the wealthy is a strawman.

 

[railiner]

In the summer and around winter holidays there were trains that split into two sections, by class, even in the 1960's. HOWEVER, full meals were offered in the Coach section diner or cafe cars,

Examples of this were the combined Super Chief/El Capitan, or the Panama Limited/Magnolia Star. One other train that I rode that had a coach and a Pullman diner was SCL's seasonal Florida Special...its diner was unique AFAIK, in having real candlelight dinner's...its ads touted: "The Champagne Train" rides again!"

 

[railiner]

As we all know, this business of claiming the " gummint" is subsidizing dining cars is a strawman. The "gummint" sibsudizes ALL travel in America, in one way or another, from our great interstate Hiway system to the TSA and air traffic control system, to airport grants, to all commuter rail.
Even Amtrak coach is subsidized.
Saying diners are "first class" and for the recreation if the wealthy is a strawman.

I think the difference is, is that if the government funds the infrastructure costs as it partially does for other modes, that is acceptable and 'fair'; but if it subsidizes the operating costs, which it doesn't do for other modes, with a few 'essential services' exception's, then that is perhaps not. Opinion's will differ of course, by whether one uses the long distance trains, or not....
You also have to keep in mind, the other modes of travel all pay taxes of one kind or another...does Amtrak?

 

[Skyline]

My last European overnight was Paris to Venice -- with dinner in the restaurant car. There was one sitting -- we all came in, sat down, were served an appetizer, then the chef came around with a pot and served everyone the same dinner (I remember veal stew) and sides, later he came around for seconds, and there was dessert. It was great. This obviously wouldn't work in the US -- no choices! no substitutions! take it or leave it.

These days the Paris-Venice night train is different (the Thello) but they still have a restaurant. Here is the menu:
https://www.thello.com/wp-content/uploads/menu-Bistrot-Completo-uk.pdfI think I'll have the spelt salad, followed by duck confit and a cheese plate.
Note at the bottom of page 2, there is an asterisk and a footnote that tells exactly which items are from frozen food, so I guess the other items are fresh or prepared on board.

Even considering the USD doesn't match the Euro (today 100 USD to EUR = 88.5357 Euros), those prices seem quite reasonable. I think Amtrak could do something like this and if well executed would be a winner!

 

[20th Century Rider]

Regarding all the styles of dining on European trains... which I've had the pleasure of experiencing many times... They are efficient... they know how to pre pack food items, then heat up and serve... with exceptional quality. The European food style also includes the main course to be served to the group from a large platter with the expertise of a skilled waiter. The rolls are always piping hot and fresh.

So what is it that's so impressive? Efficiency, quality, skill, and expertise.

That would be doable for Amtrak with the right attitude!

 

[Exvalley]

The "gummint" sibsudizes ALL travel in America, in one way or another, from our great interstate Hiway system to the TSA and air traffic control system, to airport grants, to all commuter rail.

Which means that the government gets to pick the winners and losers. The hand that giveth can also taketh.