Will full service dining ever return to the Western trains?

[20th Century Rider]

Basically, it comes down to this:

From the Amtrak Service Line Plans FY 21-25:

"Millennials, the largest population cohort, seek travel experiences that are inexpensive yet Instagram-worthy, with seamless Wi-Fi capability for any work or leisure/social activity. In contrast, Baby Boomers gravitate toward luxury experiences with differentiated amenities, yet also value seamless connectivity. As a responsible steward of federal dollars, Amtrak must ensure we are making investments that maximize public benefit"

The Long Distance Trains provide Instagram-worthy sights and relative comfort even if food is not included. The market that cares deeply about the food is not the market Amtrak wants on the trains. Most of the Instagram set I've seen on the LD trains don't really care one way or another about the food, it wouldn't prevent them from making the trip.

The other thing is that the LD trains are a hybrid product. The Auto Train IS an all-sleeper luxury product designed to get people down to their vacation homes in Florida. It will continue to grow as a service line since it was designed from the beginning to serve one purpose and one purpose only.

All of the other LD routes serve a variety of customers going to a variety of different destinations. These LD routes are there because they serve rural populations that like having a train around, but make most of their money from those traveling longer distances.

Your comments are impressive and reflect a good logical grasp of things as they are. The food issue has brought questions regarding justifiable pricing which in the past has included complete dining service, coupled with supply and demand 'bucket levels.' I wonder if Amtrak ever breaks down the pricing; or it is now just going to supply and demand like the airlines??? This is more of a question than a comment. The decline in food service doesn't seem to have effected fares. I wonder how you and others feel about actual pricing???

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The market that cares deeply about the food is not the market Amtrak wants on the trains. Most of the Instagram set I've seen on the LD trains don't really care one way or another about the food, it wouldn't prevent them from making the trip.

Meals, drinks, and dining are actually a huge part of the instagram culture. So much so that it has become a meme to photograph your meals for almost any reason. The problem for Amtrak is that instagrammers generally want to be seen and associated with fresh, healthy, and/or trendy cuisine -- which is the exact opposite of Amtrak's precooked TV trays. That's what makes this post look more like projection than perception. If Amtrak doesn't want my business that's their prerogative, but most instagrammers are not big spenders and it would take a lot of $50 photo op fares to replace just one $500 sleeper fare.

 

[joelkfla]

Look closely at this picture... see those teenie tiny mini salads? They have indeed discontinued the teenie tiny carrot shavings! I'm wondering what's next to go... perhaps the cherry tomato? Oh my!

That would be fine with me. Cherry tomatoes have been so relentless bred for sturdiness (and picked prematurely) that they're usually either sour or devoid of any flavor.

 

[20th Century Rider]

Meals, drinks, and dining related services are actually a huge part of the instagram culture. So much so that it has become a persistent meme to photograph your meals for almost any reason. The problem for Amtrak is that instagrammers generally want to be seen and associated with fresh, healthy, and trendy cuisine -- which is the exact opposite of Amtrak's precooked TV tray nonsense. That's what makes this post look more like projection than perception. If Amtrak doesn't want my business that's their prerogative, but most instagrammers are not big spenders and it would take a lot of $50 photo op fares to replace just one $500 sleeper fare.

I really don't think Amtrak cares about millennials, or instagram culture, or anything else... they're just doing what they want to do to cut costs with any regard for anyone or anything. The 'bean counters' pad their edicts with a little verbiage here and there which in effect is totally meaningless. Our struggle is to accept illogical government agency bureaucracy which never seems to make sense. Is anyone aware at what's going on with the US postal system? Real crisis there. Hmmm... and at Amtrak too!

 

[20th Century Rider]

That would be fine with me. Cherry tomatoes have been so relentless bred for sturdiness that they're usually either sour or devoid of any flavor.

And 'lettuce' not neglect the fine flavor of that yummy nummy lettuce!
Have they started rationing out the dressing packets yet???

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Some of My instagram posted breakfasts on trains - Amtrak, Hoosier State, VIA Rail. And then “contemporary dining” on the Silver Meteor.

 

[Nick Farr]

Meals, drinks, and dining are actually a huge part of the instagram culture.

Correct, but nobody in that culture is going to Amtrak for the dining. The folks that will head out on Amtrak are the adventure seekers, the campers, the folks who don't really care about dining in the context of a train adventure that is rustic from the outset.

(I say this having photographed almost all the meals on the menu and put a somewhat generously positive spin on them in this very forum.)

The other part of that culture is that few of them are going to photograph what is a sub-par experience, or run the risk of "pulling a boomer". They're going to photograph the highlights and kind of ignore the food. If they are traveling now, they're looking for novel experiences and/or things that are COVID safe.

Those that are prone to dunking on the experience are more likely to ride in coach, where there are many other problems far more serious than meal service.

...most instagrammers are not big spenders and it would take a lot of $50 photo op fares to replace just one $500 sleeper fare.

While this is correct across the population of Instagrammers, there is a very substantial segment of travelers with that kind of disposable income who are looking for novel experiences that aren't necessarily luxurious. If you look at the YouTube travel segment, you'll see a lot of the under 40 set speaking positively about the sleeper experience, which for around $500/day does provide some unparalleled views.

The other thing to realize is that a lot of under 40 folks don't have cars or kids. A lot of them don't even have driver's license. AMTRAK can replace the traditional road trip for those who aren't embracing #vanlife.

From a strategic perspective, killing off dining service and doing the bare minimum so sleeper car passengers don't starve:

• Saves money (and between union contracts and FRA rules, it's one of the only things they can save money on).
• Helps eliminate incentives for older passengers and others who have higher service expectations
• Cultivates a newer market that will pay premium pricing with lower service expectations

In my view, strategically, this is not the correct approach. The correct approach as I see it would be having sleeper car passengers pre-order meals, partnering with local food establishments along the route and providing for fresher refrigerated options for anytime meal service. Also allowing passengers to swap out a dinner for a salad and a beer/wine and creating other options, along with cross-training SCAs and DCAs and having a designated workspace for the LSA would help.

 

[20th Century Rider]

Some of My instagram posted breakfasts on trains - Amtrak, Hoosier State, VIA Rail. And then “contemporary dining” on the Silver Metoer.
View attachment 18407View attachment 18408View attachment 18409View attachment 18410

Aw... c'mon... you're making my mouth water... except for that last pic of the flex breakfast; just lost my appetite!

 

[Nick Farr]

The food issue has brought questions regarding justifiable pricing which in the past has included complete dining service, coupled with supply and demand 'bucket levels.' I wonder if Amtrak ever breaks down the pricing; or it is now just going to supply and demand like the airlines??? This is more of a question than a comment.

Amtrak cannot generally LOWER fares beyond the lowest bucket price, there is a quasi-regulatory floor which prevents them from engaging in true revenue pricing.

They are also generally bound by "first come, first served", which means anyone can book a roomette from Ft Collins to Denver at the floor price, even if it means that they would lose the opportunity to serve a passenger from Chicago to Emeryville.

They also have not been doing a great job of offering/advertising upgrades. This is a key revenue driver for airlines.

The incentives are for cost cutting, not necessarily increasing other potential sources of revenue or maximizing revenue opportunities.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

but most instagrammers are not big spenders

Source? There are over 1 billion instagram users.

 

[20th Century Rider]

Amtrak cannot generally LOWER fares beyond the lowest bucket price, there is a quasi-regulatory floor which prevents them from engaging in true revenue pricing.

They are also generally bound by "first come, first served", which means anyone can book a roomette from Ft Collins to Denver at the floor price, even if it means that they would lose the opportunity to serve a passenger from Chicago to Emeryville.

They also have not been doing a great job of offering/advertising upgrades. This is a key revenue driver for airlines.

The incentives are for cost cutting, not necessarily increasing other potential sources of revenue or maximizing revenue opportunities.

Sounds archaic to me... if they used better technology and maximized other resources, they could probably reduce loss and increase profits.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The other thing to realize is that a lot of under 40 folks don't have cars or kids. A lot of them don't even have driver's license.

This is all accurate for me.

I know that I’ve traveled on Amtrak less and less as cuts to on board service have been made. Amtrak management would probably label me a railfan (guilty...) but I’m replacing my Amtrak travel with air travel.

If I want to take a train for fun I’m taking a steam train. I use Amtrak when I need to get somewhere. Now I may take a longer than needed route (hello starlight and empire builder from LA to Chicago...) but I’m still using it as transportation.

 

[Qapla]

If I needed to travel to NY from here in Florida - my first inclination is to check Amtrak. If that is not possible due to their removing service or the cost being too high, my next move is to check Mega Bus and/or Greyhound ... if all else fails, I would either stay home or see if I could drive.

I do not take the train to NY just to ride the train.

Yes, I enjoy traveling by train - but I also view it as transportation ... not just a rail cruise.

 

[railiner]

The Auto Train IS an all-sleeper luxury product

Really? Last time I checked, the AT carried coaches...

 

[railiner]

which means anyone can book a roomette from Ft Collins to Denver at the floor price, even if it means that they would lose the opportunity to serve a passenger from Chicago to Emeryville.

Fort Collins to Denver? New Front Range train? I think you meant Fort Morgan....

 

[20th Century Rider]

BREAKING NEWS UPDATE.

From Amtrak's site.

Service Change
Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through December 15, 2020, Sleeping Car customers will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.

Er... Um... this broke a few days ago and there's been a mountain of posts about it already. Join the chorus of annoyed and concerned Amtrak fans and un-Amtrak fans!

 

[20th Century Rider]

Some of My instagram posted breakfasts on trains - Amtrak, Hoosier State, VIA Rail. And then “contemporary dining” on the Silver Metoer.
View attachment 18407View attachment 18408View attachment 18409View attachment 18410

In that last pic I think you forgot to include the soggy congealed 'breakfast sandwich' which is pure fat, sodium, starch, and 'additives' to go along with the 'delicious' flex breakfast. Or has that been discontinued as well?

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

Millennial here, can confirm none of us like bad food. We also really don't like being alone and isolated, even if that's what we're used to, and we're not shy of strangers, so communal seating is not a turn-off.

I could go on and on about how things could be done better but let's just be honest here, all of Amtrak's supposed justifications for making the food worse are just excuses to cover up their agenda, which is to reduce ridership on long distance trains until they can be allowed to discontinue them. Same as 50 years ago. When do you think they'll dust off the Southern Pacific vending machines?

 

[Nick Farr]

Fort Collins to Denver? New Front Range train? I think you meant Fort Morgan....

Correct, I meant Fort Morgan. While I'm here correcting myself, I'd like to thank Mike Jensen for consistently posting the CZ on YouTube as it passes through Fort MORGAN.

 

[Nick Farr]

Really? Last time I checked, the AT carried coaches...

Maybe I should have said it's a land cruise product. You're right about the coaches, I don't know where I got that misinformed idea.

However, I imagine traditional dining will remain unchanged on it because it's specifically a part of that focused, land cruise product. I know for a fact that the Auto Train started off as a private venture and the thinking that went into building that product is largely unchanged.

Would testing or bringing a similar product to market be possible inside today's Amtrak organization?

 

[20th Century Rider]

Millennial here, can confirm none of us like bad food. We also really don't like being alone and isolated, even if that's what we're used to, and we're not shy of strangers, so communal seating is not a turn-off.

I could go on and on about how things could be done better but let's just be honest here, all of Amtrak's supposed justifications for making the food worse are just excuses to cover up their agenda, which is to reduce ridership on long distance trains until they can be allowed to discontinue them. Same as 50 years ago. When do you think they'll dust off the Southern Pacific vending machines?

You're proof that Amtrak management doesn't have a clue about the passengers it serves... and yes, they seem determined to shut down long distance trains.

 

[Nick Farr]

Millennial here, can confirm none of us like bad food.

Millennial here, can confirm that the flex dining is not a deal-killer...and a lot of us ate a lot of "bad food" because we were left with no other options. Unlike Boomers, we've been conditioned from birth to overpay and settle for less.

Amtrak's supposed justifications for bad food are just excuses to cover up their agenda, which is to reduce ridership on long distance trains until they can be allowed to discontinue them. Same as 50 years ago. When do you think they'll dust off the Southern Pacific vending machines?

A kinder way of saying this is that they're trying to stem the bleeding with things about the product they can control. There's really not a lot they have control over other than the dining. They can't control the stations, the staffing, the routes...they have just barely enough control over the consists, etc. Why does each car need an SCA? Aren't they idle a lot of the time?

I think all they have to do is wait for the Superliners to fall apart or have a serious accident that would then allow them to kill the LD network--but Congress will probably step in at that point.

 

[20th Century Rider]

I think all they have to do is wait for the Superliners to fall apart or have a serious accident that would then allow them to kill the LD network--but Congress will probably step in at that point.

They already are falling apart... heating cooling problems on most superliners; seats and tables are in disrepair. Also, there are a total of 17 superliner cars that have been damaged in accidents which have been taken out of service and are being used for spare parts before going to the scrap yard.

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

Millennial here, can confirm that the flex dining is not a deal-killer...and a lot of us ate a lot of "bad food" because we were left with no other options. Unlike Boomers, we've been conditioned from birth to overpay and settle for less.



A kinder way of saying this is that they're trying to stem the bleeding with things about the product they can control. There's really not a lot they have control over other than the dining. They can't control the stations, the staffing, the routes...they have just barely enough control over the consists, etc. Why does each car need an SCA? Aren't they idle a lot of the time?

I think all they have to do is wait for the Superliners to fall apart or have a serious accident that would then allow them to kill the LD network--but Congress will probably step in at that point.

It's not exactly a deal killer for me either but it's very close.

There are so many creative things they could do to both cut costs and make the experience better. It's really not that hard to make decent food in an easy and cheap manner. One cook, a freezer full of pre-prepared meals made with fresh ingredients, and a couple of pressure cookers. Fewer hot menu items and passengers must order ahead of time, but you'd still get the white tablecloth, and lower blood pressure. Something like that.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Source?

I've read it in a number of places but here is one. They are compressing a process that normally takes years into a few months. The US is fast-tracking a coronavirus vaccine, but bypassing safety standards may not be worth the cost