Will full service dining ever return to the Western trains?

[zephyr17]

Graham Claytor and his team were very supportive of long distance services.

 

[jimdex]

Graham Claytor and his team were very supportive of long distance services.
[/QUOTE

That is basically true, which is why I said "virtually," but not even Claytor could go beyond modest expansions of long-distance service. And even during his tenure, Amtrak released financial reports showing the long-distance trains losing money. Given the realities of the situation, there was only so much Claytor could do.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

/ Virtually every Amtrak management team over the past 50 years has been accused of failing to support the long-distance trains, and of allegedly "cooking the books" to make long-distance trains look bad. financially Changing managers has not had any substantial effect in the past, and it's unlikely to have any substantial effect in the future. All Amtrak managements are constrained by the fact that yes, the long-distance trains do lose money, and the political will to increase the subsidy for those operations is limited.

Boardman and Moorman both seemed very supportive of long distance service.

Alex K. Made some famous quote about comparing long distance trains to national parks.

 

[jimdex]

Boardman and Moorman both seemed very supportive of long distance service.

Alex K. Made some famous quote about comparing long distance trains to national parks.

They may have offered some supportive comments, but from a practical aspect, they did very little to expand or improve long distance service.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

They may have offered some supportive comments, but from a practical aspect, they did very little to expand or improve long distance service.

neither called to remove long distance trains or long distance services. They ordered new Long distance equipment and kept the LD system running as well as could be expected.

From a practical aspect that’s way better than what we have now!

 

[jis]

neither called to remove long distance trains or long distance services. They ordered new Long distance equipment and kept the LD system running as well as could be expected.

From a practical aspect that’s way better than what we have now!

Well, the current ones also ordered new LD locomotives, and as far as I can tell are keeping the LD network running for now. Additionally they have an active planning activity to refurbish and eventually replace the LD equipment subject to funding of course, though some of it, specially Amfleet II replacement may even get funded out of current accounts revenue collateralized loans too. Actually their hands have pretty much been tied regarding running the LD network given how PRIIA was worded identifying each individual LD train as something that cannot be lightheartedly dropped. Anderson tried and failed, and I doubt anyone will try again in a while as long as Congress does not cut off funding. That is the Devil's Compact that the whole thing is grounded on.

In my mind the issue really is the lack of desire both on the part of Congress and Amtrak management to seriously consider doing the needful to potentially expand the National Network offerings. That is still the case with the new ConnectUS Plan.

It should also be remembered that the service downgrades, some serious ones at that, began in the Boardman era. Of course in many people's mind all of those are now ascribed to Anderson, so there is that too.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It should also be remembered that the service downgrades, some serious ones at that, began in the Boardman era

Which ones? It is hard to keep track of what happened under which president.

 

[Cal]

Which ones? It is hard to keep track of what happened under which president.

I believe it was during that time amenity kits were dropped, wine tasting was dropped on the LSL and EB, china was being removed from diners, and food quality went down.

Just a guess..

 

[jis]

Which ones? It is hard to keep track of what happened under which president.

Silver Star lost its Diner in Boardman's time for example as did the Lake Shore. Admittedly that was partly because Boardman's contract managers could not figure out how to flog CAF into delivering anything on time, after having chosen CAF instead of Alstom who had inherited the knowledge of construction of the previous Viewliner fleet.

There was also a series of Menu degrades and the march to plasticware that happened over those years.

 

[zephyr17]

I think Simplied Dining Service which reduced dining car staff, significantly reduced the number of items freshly prepared onboard, and ultimately pretty much ended individualized menu items by train was on Boardman's watch.

In his defense, that was in response to the Mica Amendment. We should also note that SDS is essentially the version of "traditional dining" that everyone is now clamoring to return to.

It was a big degradation at first, but improved over time (the recently discussed lamb shank in another thread for example).

While Boardman didn't press for enhancements to long distance services, he accepted them as part of Amtrak and fought a pretty decent rearguard battle to maintain some semblance of quality in a hostile political environment.

As opposed to Anderson who was overtly hostile to LDs and, at least initially, started actions aimed at their dismantlement.

 

[zephyr17]

I believe it was during that time amenity kits were dropped, wine tasting was dropped on the LSL and EB, china was being removed from diners, and food quality went down.

Just a guess..

All in response to the Mica Amendment.

 

[Cal]

All in response to the Mica Amendment.

I'm sorry, but what is that?

 

[Sidney]

Flex was introduced in June 2018,almost three years ago on the Capitol and Lake Shore under Anderson. When was the Mica amendment?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I think Simplied Dining Service which reduced dining car staff, significantly reduced the number of items freshly prepared onboard, and ultimately pretty much ended individualized menu items by train was on Boardman's watch.

In his defense, that was in response to the Mica Amendment. We should also note that SDS is essentially the version of "traditional dining" that everyone is now clamoring to return to.

It was a big degradation at first, but improved over time (the recently discussed lamb shank in another thread for example).

While Boardman didn't press for enhancements to long distance services, he accepted them as part of Amtrak and fought a pretty decent rearguard battle to maintain some semblance of quality in a hostile political environment.

As opposed to Anderson who was overtly hostile to LDs and, at least initially, started actions aimed at their dismantlement.

The original sds was basically plated flex meals with table service. Nothing was cooked on board. (never forget the Bob Evans breakfast scramble!).

When they realized they could have 1 chef cook a few items on board they added it back. Scrambled eggs & omelettes for breakfast. Steak and a grilled fish for dinner. Then they added the special items like the lamb, crab cakes, etc. - those were all excellent.

 

[zephyr17]

I'm sorry, but what is that?

Legislation introduced by Representative John Mica R-FL and passed that required Amtrak to completely eliminate losses attributable food and beverage service over a 5(?) year period.

Mica was constantly on Amtrak's food service for years and years as his leading example of government waste. Like removing the diners was going to eliminate the deficit. He was also directly responsible for killing the wine tastings when he started yelling about "Amtrak's giving away free wine!"

He was thankfully defeated for re-election in 2016 and the Mica Amendment was repealed in 2019(?). At any rate, he's gone and it's gone.

He was an enormous political problem for Amtrak years, though.

 

[zephyr17]

Flex was introduced in June 2018,almost three years ago on the Capitol and Lake Shore under Anderson. When was the Mica amendment?

Don't remember the exact date, around 2014, I think. Repealed in 2019.

 

[zephyr17]

The original sds was basically plated flex meals with table service. Nothing was cooked on board. (never forget the Bob Evans breakfast scramble!).

When they realized they could have 1 chef cook a few items on board they added it back. Scrambled eggs & omelettes for breakfast. Steak and a grilled fish for dinner. Then they added the special items like the lamb, crab cakes, etc. - those were all excellent.

Yeah, it got quite a bit better. It was pretty awful at the beginning. That Bob Evan's scramble looked like the outcome of worshipping the porcelain god.

 

[jis]

All in response to the Mica Amendment.

Well a combination of Mica Amendment and continuous pestering by the OIG. The Republicans used the OIG to beat Amtrak upon its head repeatedly about merely trying to operate a viable passenger system it seemed. This in spite of many individual Republican legislatures playing a herculean role to protect Amtrak in their turf. But they never succeeded and even now have not succeeded in modifying the party dogma on this matter, such as it is.

Flex was introduced in June 2018,almost three years ago on the Capitol and Lake Shore under Anderson. When was the Mica amendment?

2015. It contained a deadline of Dec 31 2020, by when Amtrak would be disbarred from using any federal funds for providing food service on any train. Incorporated in regulations as 49 USC #24321, repealed in 2020 in the Emergency Authorization Extension and Supplementary Appropriation Bill.

 

[me_little_me]

I'm sorry, but what is that?

Past article on Mica's issues

A major part of the problem has been Amtrak's unwillingness/inability to document their diner costs and revenues and how they came up with the numbers as well as their issues of running out of food to sell and kicking coach passengers out of the diners (lost revenue opportunities). Elsewhere is this IG document form 2014 in which you can see SOME of Amtrak's costs but read their summary at the bottom where they say management doesn't track the info by train.

OIG Report

 

[Ryan]

While Boardman didn't press for enhancements to long distance services, he accepted them as part of Amtrak and fought a pretty decent rearguard battle to maintain some semblance of quality in a hostile political environment.

That pretty well squares with the conversation I was able to have with him once upon a time. I pressed him a bit on ordering new LD stock, and the gist of it was that it was up to Congress to provide the direction and funding to do so.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

There was also a series of Menu degrades and the march to plasticware that happened over those years.

I don’t remember any significant menu degrades under boardman. Even in 2016 (Boardman’s last year) I was having a lamb shank on China on the coast Starlight.

I do know the chefs specials started slowly disappearing from the other trains before he left though.

 

[Ryan]

Here's a pretty decent thread that describes the state of the food in 2014. Not glowing reviews, but oh, if only we knew what was coming...
https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/menu-item-must-haves-and-must-not-haves.61133/

 

[Palmland]

Unfortunately if you want a good meal right now you either have to cook it yourself or goto a restaurant.

That’s our experience too where restaurants are wide open with no restrictions (other than long waits because of a shortage of servers). So that begs the question: if it’s ok in restaurants why not on trains, planes, or hotel chains where your free breakfast is a stale pastry wrapped in plastic. Surely the opportunity to save money can’t be the reason.

 

[Bob Dylan]

That’s our experience too where restaurants are wide open with no restrictions (other than long waits because of a shortage of servers). So that begs the question: if it’s ok in restaurants why not on trains, planes, or hotel chains where your free breakfast is a stale pastry wrapped in plastic. Surely the opportunity to save money can’t be the reason.

As always the Tpublicans are blaming it on the workers who don't want to work ,when they can get $300 a Week Unemployment instead of the $2.13 an Hour that Servers and Bartenders make in Texas!

 

[user 14106]

I’m optimistic about what I’m hearing from
The RPA - sounds like we’ll hear more next week. If everything works out out west I guess then the battle moves to trying to improve flex dining to something more acceptable to all passengers. Maybe I’m naive but for right now I’m feeling optimistic.